Wow, can they really do this? rear-ended

[shateredsoul]

So my Father was rear-ended recently when he stopped to let a car out of an alley (the car is only wide enough for one car).  The lady claimed that it was my father's fault because he stopped suddenly.  She thought she had a case and was yelling called the cops and all.  Her car, a Toyota Prius, was totaled my fathers car (a 1980 ford f150) only ended up with a bent bumper and broken tail light. At first her insurance company sent in the paper work and was going to come in to look at the damage on my dad's truck, but all of the sudden they canceled and now they said it was my dad's fault.

She has some tiny insurance company, and they found my dad at fault.  According to two so called witnesses, my dad went into reverse right into the lady. Before the lady said that my dad stopped suddenly and that was the cause of the accident. A local restaurant owner and worker came out after the crash, but they saw that these two witnesses didn't arrive until after the crash. Allstate, my father's insurance company, aren't really being of much help. They asked him if he really wanted to maintain his statement, and if he realizes that this means she might take them to court.  They claimed that they were there for the police's arrival, which is not true (the two witnesses on my dad side can testify to that).

My father also had a passenger with him, a friend.  But for some reason they aren't taking that witness as seriously.

 

[wp34]

However unfair he might be out of luck.  I had always been told that the person in the rear is ALWAYS at fault in these cases.  It is their duty to be paying attention to what is in front of them.  But I had a friend who stopped short on an exit ramp recently and the person behind her (following too closely) hit her.  My friend ended up being at fault. 

I know it doesn't take much to total a car these days but was she traveling at a high rate of speed? 

I hope it works out for your dad.

[Benevolance]

In most cases the vehicle behind is at fault, but I've known a few instances where the vehicle in front was held at fault because it reversed (or rolled backwards far enough into the vehicle behind, from starting on a hill). In this case because both sides have witnesses saying the opposite things, it comes down to credibility. I'd be surprised if it gets settled swiftly.

Also, re: witness in car. Around here, they don't often consider the account of that person if there are other, (assumedly) more neutral witness accounts available.

[Ed_McCarron]

So my Father was rear-ended recently when he stopped to let a car out of an alley (the car is only wide enough for one car).  The lady claimed that it was my father's fault because he stopped suddenly.  She thought she had a case and was yelling called the cops and all.  Her car, a Toyota Prius, was totaled my fathers car (a 1980 ford f150) only ended up with a bent bumper and broken tail light. At first her insurance company sent in the paper work and was going to come in to look at the damage on my dad's truck, but all of the sudden they canceled and now they said it was my dad's fault.

She has some tiny insurance company, and they found my dad at fault.  According to two so called witnesses, my dad went into reverse right into the lady. Before the lady said that my dad stopped suddenly and that was the cause of the accident. A local restaurant owner and worker came out after the crash, but they saw that these two witnesses didn't arrive until after the crash. Allstate, my father's insurance company, aren't really being of much help. They asked him if he really wanted to maintain his statement, and if he realizes that this means she might take them to court.  They claimed that they were there for the police's arrival, which is not true (the two witnesses on my dad side can testify to that).

My father also had a passenger with him, a friend.  But for some reason they aren't taking that witness as seriously.

 

Cheaper for the insurance company to pay off the whiners than to investigate.

[danny_galaga]

That's bloody ridiculous! You are supposed to drive as if the person in front of you is going to stop suddenly. ---fudgesicle--- her, sue her sorry ass! I took someone to the small claims court once because she was claiming I drove into her, but actually she had reversed into me, and she knew it. Damn white trash. I won that one luckily.

Sorry for your Dad Shatered.

[shateredsoul]

Thanks, hope it works out.  Right now we're just helping him out and making sure he stays calm.  He has diabetes so it's not too good for him to be stressed. Even though in the end it will be Allstate who pays, these situations stress him out. The thing that gets to me is that she changed her story from "he stopped too suddenly" to "he reversed into me"

[TOK]

She drives a Prius, they should find her guilty just for that! 

Seriously, that is a crappy situation and I think your dad should fight it to the end. I had a homeowners claim a couple years ago and I when I was talking to our property adjuster I asked him what the best and worst insurance companies were. He said Allstate the worst by far. Not sure that transfers over to car insurance, but sounds like it might.

[HanoiBoi]

Thanks, hope it works out.  Right now we're just helping him out and making sure he stays calm.  He has diabetes so it's not too good for him to be stressed. Even though in the end it will be Allstate who pays, these situations stress him out. The thing that gets to me is that she changed her story from "he stopped too suddenly" to "he reversed into me"

Get a copy of the police report.  If the report shows that she said "he stopped too suddenly", then she doesn't have a case.

Did the police speak to the shop owner and worker to determine that her witnesses came later?  But ask yourself, why would anyone say they saw something that they didn't?  Most people don't want to be involved, much less voluntarily get involved.

Also, I'm not an authority on this, but we've all heard that many newer vehicles have PCs (like a black box) that can be accessed which would essentially allow investigators to see a movement history of the vehicle.  If she says he reversed, I assume she's saying that her car was at a stop.  I would think that a diagnostic could determine the speed of her car at impact.  Even if he did reverse, if she was moving she'd be at fault too.

And if none of that pans out....any chance she was on a cell phone?  If it's possible, pursue obtaining her phone records.  It would be the conversation right before she called the police.

Good luck soul.

[Endaar]

While I totally understand the frustration at being blamed for something that isn't his fault, the facts are that this sounds like a pretty small accident with minimal damages. You don't indicate any injuries, the Prius probably needs less than $2000 in body work, and the truck, sad to say, is going to be worth next to nothing.

Point being, let the insurance companies fight it out. It's not enough of a claim to get that worked up about, especially since your dad has medical issues and doesn't need the stress. I can't imagine that this will have much of an adverse impact on your dad's rates.

Endaar

[hypernova]

the Prius probably needs less than $2000 in body work,

The Prius was totaled.

The other person's insurance company found your father at fault?  Wow...that's not subject to bias.   Sure.  OK.  I'd say let's talk to some other parties, like, oh, the police, and see what their opinion is just for kicks.

[shateredsoul]

Yeah, the thing is the police didn't file a report.  I thought they were suppose to if the damage was above about 500.  The prius couldn't move after the crash.. had to be towed away.They filled out this paper for my father thought.. only has info on where the crash happened.  I'm going to see if I could track down the police officers via the what I hope is the badge number.

How likely do you think it is that a phone company will release phone records though? My dad didn't catch whether she was on the cell phone.  But he does feel she might have been on the cell phone or not paying attention in some way. Right before impact she tried to veer off into  next lane (which is why only one of his tail lights is out). 

I just don't understand why they would believe their argument, it was on a flat street not on a hill  ... so to cause that much damage my father must have been going pretty fast in reverse. If he had reversed into her that would not have caused the same damage.  Luckily some of the people at the scene took pictures and are helping us get a hold of them.

[shmokes]

Of course he does.  If his insurance pays he has an at fault accident on his record which increases his insurance premiums.  I really don't understand this lack of a police report business.  That seems so nutso that it makes me suspect that you're being lied to.  Why the ---fudgesicle--- would the police not fill out a police report?  That makes no sense to me.

[shateredsoul]

Of course he does.  If his insurance pays he has an at fault accident on his record which increases his insurance premiums.  I really don't understand this lack of a police report business.  That seems so nutso that it makes me suspect that you're being lied to.  Why the ---fudgesicle--- would the police not fill out a police report?  That makes no sense to me.

Not sure why, they felt that the amount of damage didn't warrant a police report I suppose. I did see the paper that was filled out.  Well either way, if there was a police report this would be a lot easier to settle. My dad should have pushed for one, but this is the first time he's been in a car accident like this (he's a much better driver than I). Either way, a police report would probably have helped us close this case. After reading up a little on this I just found out that you can push for filing a police report. or does anyone have a better idea of how this works in California? Do the police decide whether a police report is filed? or do the people in the accident decide this? I wonder if the police officer misunderstood my dad (he speaks English, but it's not his first language). It doesn't make sense to me why the other person didn't push for a police report.

[Ed_McCarron]

Again, the insurance company doesn't really care who is at fault -- they want to settle the claims as quick and cheap as possible.  Unless someone got dead, they're not going to bother with forensics.

Plus, if they can raise his premiums, more money for them.

Where this can bite you in the ass is two years from now when she files a civil suit because she can't work due to injuries.  Seriously.  Someone claimed rear-ending a relative caused them to develop diabetes later.

[shateredsoul]

does that look like he reversed into her?

[shateredsoul]

How willing would a policeman be willing to testify for this type of case? Just found out we have the policeman's officer serial number

[Endaar]

the Prius probably needs less than $2000 in body work,

The Prius was totaled.

The other person's insurance company found your father at fault?  Wow...that's not subject to bias.   Sure.  OK.  I'd say let's talk to some other parties, like, oh, the police, and see what their opinion is just for kicks.

Oops...guess I've developed dyslexia. I read that as the Prius having bumper damage. Sorry about that.

Meanwhile, just saw the pic...how in the heck is that car totaled? I was in the car business for years and have seen FAR worse repaired.

Endaar

[danny_galaga]

does that look like he reversed into her?

From a laymans perspective, impossible to tell. I had this problem in my case too. Hanoibois thought could help- if there is a diagnostic computer recording everything the car does.

[Mikezilla]

She drives a Prius, they should find her guilty just for that! 

Damn you beat me to it!  So yeah, that being said, she is some uppity clown trying to get something for free. It doesnt take much to label those cars as "totaled" considering how they are built, or if the frame was tweaked etc... In CA 99 times out of 100 if you hit someone from behind, its your fault. Sorry. The larger insurance companies usually settle, because its cheaper. You know how it is, if it affects the bottom line, they wont do it.

Sucks about your dad, Im a diabetic myself, and I know how sick he probably gets when he gets stressed. Hopefully it works out. That sucks though, big time. Changing the story...   

If all else fails, hold her cats for ransom. You know damn well she is alone, and is one of those crazy cat ladies. Cmon, she drives a prius and is trying to sue someone for HER rear ending a person. Jesus... 

[Rick]

I'm confused.  Where I stand, if your Dad isn't at fault, HER insurance company would be footing the bill - not his.  I have absolutely no idea why they're not fighting this one tooth and nail.  I'm with a bunch of others in this thread.  FIGHT IT.  That "I didn't fill out a report" is BULL.  It's a simple task to contact the local Police Department and find out what Officer was on duty at the time of the crash.  Just because he didn't fill out a report, does NOT mean his location was not reported.  They WILL KNOW exactly who attended the scene, and as long as it's fresh enough in his memory, the officer WILL REMEMBER what was said.

I am so mad right now - I HATE to see this happen.  People taking advantage.

 

[Ed_McCarron]

Where I stand, if your Dad isn't at fault, HER insurance company would be footing the bill - not his. 

Not in a no-fault state.  Everyone pays for their own damage.

[Rick]

Not in a no-fault state.  Everyone pays for their own damage.

Hurm.  I'm in Canada.  Thank God it doesn't work that way here.

[shateredsoul]

We'd be happy if it ended up with each party paying their own damage. At least she'd be more careful when driving.

Yeah, so we might actually have a witness who overheard the lady telling the cops that my dad suddenly stopped (not reversed), we have to talk to him again to make again. I'm calling the police station tomorrow to try and get the officer name. We also talked to Allstate, they are denying the claim and the lady said that the two witnesses story seemed a little fishy. She might take my dad to small claims court, but we're hoping she wont if she realizes we can probably ask the cop to testify, ask for the black box records, her cell phone record (can we ask for this?), and we have witnesses that can testify that her two witnesses arrived after the crash (they may have seen it from far, but they claimed they were there when the cops arrived, two witnesses can testify that this was not the case). The pictures may not help much.. and it's unfortunate that we do not have any witnesses who saw the actual crash. At this point my dad isn't worried so much about the money, he's just mad that this lady seems to be lying.

I still wonder why the other couple would testify that he reversed into her.. the logic just doesn't make sense.  Why would anyone reverse on a main street for no reason (he wasn't parking, there was no turn he could have missed nearby). Maybe they're trying to argue that he missed a driveway? Does anyone know if we can ask the company to provide the witnesses testimony?

[Benevolance]

Why would anyone reverse on a main street for no reason

Oh, lots of reasons. You might be surprised. I work in the insurance field, so I get to deal with a lot of stupid people after they've done something really stupid and are trying to rationalize that they somehow aren't stupid. The excuses must seem plausible to them.

But it sounds like you might have this close to all sorted out soon, which is good.

[Mikezilla]

Not in a no-fault state.  Everyone pays for their own damage.

Jesus. I didnt even know that existed.

[Ed_McCarron]

Not in a no-fault state.  Everyone pays for their own damage.

Jesus. I didnt even know that existed.

Yup.  Some genius decided that the legal wrangling took too long and just decided that each persons insurance pays for their own damage.  Also, you can't sue the other party for injuries and whatsuch unless some threshold is reached.

Unless you live in PA like me.  We're kinda screwed up.  It's not fault, but you can still sue.  Go figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fault_insurance

[shateredsoul]

Whatever life you had before this accident is now over.  Your full time job is investigating this woman and this accident.  The fact that your insurance company is denying her claim isn't proof that she's lying, it's proof that your father and his family (you) are about to be sued and possibly sent to jail.  You need to start hiring lawyers and private investigators NOW.

why sent to jail? I understand the sued part, but not the jail part. I also understand the purpose of getting the lawyer, but since she's not claiming bodily injury does it really make sense to look for a private investigator?  The most important evidence to have would be having access to the prius black box and her phone records. I imagine both  of those would not be easy to get.  We do have other witnesses that have stories that bring her witnesses' account into question (particularly being there). If anything she'll probably sue for the damage (about 2000). Hopefully she's smart enough to just let it go.... thanks for the advice though.

[Rick]

If anything she'll probably sue for the damage (about 2000). Hopefully she's smart enough to just let it go.... thanks for the advice though.

If she wins on the insurance side, she could figure she has an advantage, and then sue separately for physical damages.  I don't know about your location, but I've heard/read stories about people doing this, and then taking this information to their workplace, taking off loads of time (back/neck problems) and who foots the bill?  The guy deemed guilty for the accident.  Sure, it could come out of the Insurance Company (again, location driven) but there's also the option that Insurance rates are jacked up, or a company stops covering you completely.

Win this one.  Don't take any chances.  I'm not saying do what PinballJim said above is right, but definitely get all the information you can from the sources you have at your disposal.  My first thing would be the Officers on the scene.  Get them as soon as possible to avoid short term memory loss.

[shmokes]

You can't go to jail as a result of a law suit.  It takes criminal charges to send you to jail.  Also, she can't sue your dad's family (I mean, she can, I guess, but it would be dismissed as a matter of course).

Also, if she were to sue you, or you her, it would not be difficult in the slightest to obtain both her phone records and the black box.  That's just part of normal discovery/disclosure.  You'd need a lawyer, though, to know how and when to do everything.

[Ed_McCarron]

Another thing you might want to consider is following her around a little with a camera and get some footage of her doing physical activity so that you can prove she wasn't injured. 

Heh -- just make sure its in public, or you can add stalking to the list of wrongs...

[ChadTower]

Clearly the kid needs to befriend the woman.   Sleep with her 4-5 times, get her on tape admitting the whole thing is a scam, and then counter-blackmail her with video of the events.  It's win-win-win for you.

[Mikezilla]

Clearly the kid needs to befriend the woman.   Sleep with her 4-5 times, get her on tape admitting the whole thing is a scam, and then counter-blackmail her with video of the events.  It's win-win-win for you.

Unless she is nasty. She is probably some scumbag hippie. She drives a prius for gods sakes, and is trying to sue a dude that SHE rear ended. Ugly for sure, because stupid people are usually ugly.

[northerngames]

does that look like he reversed into her?

to me not at all.

the car was in reverse with the wheel all the way to the left and clipped the corner of the parked pickup.

no way that pickup backed up and had enough speed to make the plain tears not impact dents on that car.

I am no pro but seen plenty of demo derby's, race crash's monster trucks and what not lol.

[ChadTower]

Unless she is nasty. She is probably some scumbag hippie. She drives a prius for gods sakes, and is trying to sue a dude that SHE rear ended. Ugly for sure, because stupid people are usually ugly.

I did not say it would be easy or enjoyable.  Sometimes you have to fall on a grenade to save your family.

[shmokes]

Unless she is nasty. She is probably some scumbag hippie. She drives a prius for gods sakes, and is trying to sue a dude that SHE rear ended. Ugly for sure, because stupid people are usually ugly.

I did not say it would be easy or enjoyable.  Sometimes you have to fall on a grenade to save your family.

Yes you did.  You said win-win-win. 

[ChadTower]

Yes you did.  You said win-win-win. 

That's a fair interpretation.  The idea that the woman is nasty is speculative, however, so I'd like it stricken from consideration of my statements.

[shateredsoul]

Clearly the kid needs to befriend the woman.   Sleep with her 4-5 times, get her on tape admitting the whole thing is a scam, and then counter-blackmail her with video of the events.  It's win-win-win for you.

  

I'd rather pay a PI  !

Yeah i'm looking up the police office and other possible witnesses, trying to figure out things and such.  I do appreciate some of the advice such as where to start and what kind of things hold up in court. I just really hope she realizes that she told the cop the truth and that he can be called as a witness. The highest she can claim in small claims court is 7500.. according to google.

[ChadTower]

I still don't see why you aren't letting your insurance company handle it.  That's why you buy insurance. 

The only rational reason to stress like this is if you don't actually have insurance.

[Mikezilla]

Unless she is nasty. She is probably some scumbag hippie. She drives a prius for gods sakes, and is trying to sue a dude that SHE rear ended. Ugly for sure, because stupid people are usually ugly.

I did not say it would be easy or enjoyable.  Sometimes you have to fall on a grenade to save your family.

Yes you did.  You said win-win-win. 

Yup. You did. Getting blown up by a grenade(or getting herpes) is not win-win-win in my book. 

[Rick]

I still don't see why you aren't letting your insurance company handle it.  That's why you buy insurance.

That's easy.  They're saying it's his Dad's fault, and then they're going to jack up his rates.  Of course, they don't want to fight it.  They now have the ability to make more money from him.