A couple of routing and drilling questions - flush trim and boring vs. forstner

[laggerific]

I'm currently working on procuring the necessary bits and blades for building my arcade cabinet.  I'm building it out of 3/4" MDO plywood. 

I was looking into a carbide flush trim bit for ensuring my two cabinet sides would be identical, and it made me wonder, is it practical to create one half and then use that with a flush trim bit to then cut out the other half completely?  Are there things I should consider if I'm going that direction?

Also, I'm going with 30mm holes to support Sanwa buttons, but I'm not too familiar with power tools so would appreciate some help.  Someone recommended using a forstner bit for putting the holes in the CP.  It looks like Forstner is just a proper name for a generic boring bit...is that accurate, or are they essentially different items?  If I purchased a Freud 30mm boring bit, should that fit in an American drill?  I don't know what the standards are for attaching bits to drills...that part is referred to as the Chuck, right? Should there be an issue if I purchased a 30mm boring bit for an American drill?

[EvilNuff]

I'll take a stab at replying but I am no expert so if others correct me so be it.

You could in theory cut out the 2nd panel with the flush trim bit but its better to rough cut it and use the router to make the two panels the same size.  Basically its less work for the router and easier on you.

A forstner bit is a hole cutting bit that cuts a flat bottom, if you use a spade bit for example or a hole saw you get a hole in the middle and a cut around the outside.  If you are just drilling through 3/4" plywood a spade bit will work fine and cost less than a forstner.  You will want to have scrap wood underneath to prevent splintering when the spade bit exits.

I wouldn't think you would have any issues attaching to any US drill.  The chuck is adjustable and can fit a wide range of sizes.

[laggerific]

Thanks for the reply, I'm happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this topic.

The Control Panel will be topped with 1/8" plexi, and I've heard that forstner bits are good for plexi, which is why I went that direction...I've heard that spades aren't the best to work with for cutting the CP holes, although I don't recall if that was related to the splintering, which you addressed, or any issues with accuracy in the hole that is made.  I'm leaning toward the forstner, though, I'm open to suggestions.  That said, I'm going to have 40 or so holes to cut, so want to use the better bit, as I'm sure it will be worth every penny. 

Okay, so the arbor for drills based in millimeters and inches are the same?  Good to know.

[The Lumberjackass]

spade bits are the devil ! keep away from them .
you may cut 1 or 2 good holes to start with , but trust me , they wont all be perfect by the time you finish.

forstner bits are the best option for cutting holes. they cut clean , precise holes each and every time and should only be used
in a hobby like this. holesaws are a good option too , but a clean cut depends on the teeth and what angle they are set at .

as for the side panel . cut out a template made from mdf first . you can shape this to spec and then cut 2 side panels which are
100% exact each side . its what i did and my cab came out amazing . you couldnt tell the difference between each side and you'd
think it was factory made.

here is a link to my " how to " video's . they are the most comprehensive on the web .
even if the design isnt to your liking , my building methods can be used on any type of cab :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=103919.0

[laggerific]

Thanks lumberjackass, I'll take a look at those videos this evening...excited to see a comprehensive build.  Is there a reason that you would make the template first and then cut the two sides then vs. creating one side and then using it as the template?  Is it that MDF is easier to manipulate than Plywood to get the results of the template, or that you don't risk ruining a piece of the final wood making the template?

I'm also considering renting/getting a drill press since I plan on doing 40 holes for the CP in wood and plexi, and I really want accuracy in my button layout.

[javeryh]

For drilling the holes in your plexi I highly recommend using your router and not a drill bit.  The plexi needs to be drilled at very high speeds to avoid chipping.  You should use your CP cutout as the template for the plexi.  Use the router and a 1/4" or 1/2" straight cutting bit and plunge into the plexi over each hole.  Then switch over to your flush cutting/pattern bit and cut out the rest of the hole.  It is a little more time consuming this way but your chance of error is dramatically reduced.  Routers cut through plexi like butter!

[The Lumberjackass]

dont rent anything . always try to purchase your tools. even cheap alternatives can be a god-send .
like this removable drill press :
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-drill-guide-prod22269/
cheap as chips , is mobile and does the job faster than a drill press. depending on where you live, im sure you
can find something in a similar price bracket. i bought and use that drill press / guide on 99.9% of all my holes.

one of the main reasons i say to make a template , is so you can hold onto it for future repairs ( completely replacing a damaged panel )
or even to make a new cab to sit alongside the old one , and it'd match 100% . my original idea was to build 2 cabs . one for ordinary games
and the other for driving games . but i have no room now so that idea is blown clean out of the water.

regardless of what you decide , do what makes you happy and what you feel confident in . happy building

and i agree with the post above mine 100% 

[laggerific]

For drilling the holes in your plexi I highly recommend using your router and not a drill bit.  The plexi needs to be drilled at very high speeds to avoid chipping.  You should use your CP cutout as the template for the plexi.  Use the router and a 1/4" or 1/2" straight cutting bit and plunge into the plexi over each hole.  Then switch over to your flush cutting/pattern bit and cut out the rest of the hole.  It is a little more time consuming this way but your chance of error is dramatically reduced.  Routers cut through plexi like butter!

Fantastic, I was considering routing the plexi, but hadn't researched it yet...this is likely the direction I'll go.  


Lumberjackass...I really appreciate your suggestions, I certainly don't want to rent if I don't have to, but wasn't happy with the drill guides I had been reading about.  Good to hear that you've had success with such a device.  I'll look into that a bit further.  

....so I was looking at what Amazon and Sears and Home Depot had available regarding drill guides...I can't seem to find a drill guide in America that just holds on to the drill, similar to the one you pointed me towards.  All the ones I've found have a preinstalled 3/8" chuck, when I need at least a 1/2" chuck for the boring bit I'm looking at.  Anyone familiar with something like the axminster drill guide that Lumberjackass linked to, but available in America?

[Kman-Sweden]

I router the holes in my plex aswell... Really easy. Just clamp down the plexi ontop of the drilled out CP. Then start by routing a big enough hole to fitt a trim bit into every hole. Make sure the plexi doesn't move... trim the holes, it's like cutting into butter.

[The Lumberjackass]

if you are ordering from the web and cant find what you need , axminster deliver to the usa . i know it may take a small bit longer ,
but that guide is well worth the price even with extra postage 

order the part(s) , they sell the forstner bits too , http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-15-piece-axminster-tin-coated-forstner-bit-set-prod816857/#bottomsection , and they will keep your order on hold untill they get a price for delivery.they will contact you with the price and if your not happy , you dont have to order .
but i shouldnt see it costing much or taking that long to deliver. ask them , they respond quick enough too.

i live in ireland so they only charge me 5 pounds for no matter what i order ( large machinery excluded ) , but these guys find
and use the best postage method for the best price. they do so much business the postal services actually give them a better rate.

anyways , just to let you know that if you pay a visit to a local engineering store , ( a proper hardware store , not sears etc )
you should find the forstner bits for cheap. to give you an idea , i got a set of " record power " forstner bits for only 40 euro .
thats insane for what i got , i couldnt believe they were so cheap . usually you'll pay 8 to 10 euro for just one piece. i got
16 of them in one box !! it also pays to look around in a store than to look online too 

[laggerific]

I'm finally starting to drill holes...

So far, I'm fairly pleased with my side panels...minus a few minor, and unnoticeable nicks (once T-molding is applied!), my sides are ready and I've begun working on the CP.  It's a large 4'x1'-9", 4 person panel.  It has a 6 sided base with 22.5 degree mitre joints (not counting the 2 90 degree rear corners).  I'm planning on fastening them with screws and glue.  Any thoughts on a simple way to drill pocket holes at 22.5 degrees?  I have been researching it a bit, and it seems like I may need to create my own jig, although that won't help me insure a properly countersunk hole.  That's my big trouble right now...I can't quite get the countersink bit from dewalt to go deep enough to ensure the screw head is able to be concealed completely with putty.  Am I not applying enough pressure?  Do I need to angle more?  What's a good method for determining the distance from the edge to start, as I don't want to be too close so as to limit the chance of cracking?  Just tossing those out there if anyone has any thoughts or pointers or links to pointers or thoughts.

And I did order that drill guide from axminster...awaiting its arrival.  I hope that it will be the final missing piece for this project...other than the above mentioned challenge.  Well, there is the arc on the 4' width CP face I need to cut, but I think I have that figured out...

I have an excellent Freud flush trim bit that did a great job cleaning up the 2nd panel, which I rough cut first, so as to reduce the wear on the bit.  I plan on using it for the plexi, and conveniently it has a cutting bottom, so I can dig right in and flush out the holes in one swoop. 

[jennifer]

         Wouldn"t 1/1 strips along the inside seams eliminate the need for angles and putty?

[laggerific]

Jennifer, here is a shot of what my CP will look like.  I'm not sure how I would achieve the rounded face if I had just made a rectangular box under there.  Or am I not understanding you correctly?

[jennifer]

    Now the problem becomes apparent,[I just had a crazy vision in the night!]

[The Lumberjackass]

one of the main reasons why i didnt cut mitres on any part of my cab is because the joint will be weak.

even if its glued and screwed , there isnt enough surface area for proper adhesion of the glue , and because
of the shallow angles , using metal fastners like screws is like playing russian roulette as its very possible the screw
will break out , ruining the look of the project.

but , the easiest way out of it , is to use backing supports.
basically cut out a block of wood which will fit snugly behind each mitred part and glue the
parts together. the backing support will have to be cut accurately  if you want a good
tight fit , but it will eliminate the need for screws and stop the mess of puttying over said screws.

[jennifer]

   Or metal brackets on a break...

[Rick]

This is all awesome information. I might just use some of it tomorrow or Sunday.

[laggerific]

What would be the advantage of a wood bracket over a metal angle bracket?  That is if I could even find a metal bracket angled at 135 degrees.  I suppose the wood would give more surface area to the screw, although not sure how big an advantage that provides.  

Jennifer...what's a break?

[Rick]

Wood allows you to glue it as well as screw it, giving more holding strength.

[jennifer]

      You know, like a sheet metal break. It's used for bending steel to certain angles. (brackets)
      A metal shop could make them fairly cheap.

[laggerific]

Thanks for the info...this is the first thing I've built since 8th grade shop decades ago, so a lot to learn.

That said, I see what you mean about the wood brackets...Shouldn't be too hard to get the angles I need.  As for the wood material, do you think MDO would be okay?  Or should I pick up something more geared to framing?

[The Lumberjackass]

you can choose any sheet material to build the cp with. personally , i prefer mdf to work with ( we dont have mdo where im from ) as it
gives a nice surface to either paint or glue a veneer onto.

as for the brackets , be they made from wood or metal , either of them would suffice , provided the correct angles are achieved.
the benefit to using wood is that you can made it yourself and you can fasten it with both screws and glue.
using metal requires you to find someone to make the brackets , and then have to pay them

overall , the metal would be the stronger option , provided it has enough surface area and screw location points.
but the wood would be just as good in my opinion , as long as its done right.

[laggerific]

A chamfer router bit of 22.5 degrees made simple work of achieving the 135 degree angle for the wood bracket.  Great idea regarding the wood bracket, everyone.  I'm really pleased with how well the MDO worked with the bit...such a perfectly smooth cut.  The box is currently gluing, and I have to highly recommend the Bessey Strap Clamps.  My joints are 90%+ smooth on the visible side, and I expect the painting to obscure an additional 5-9%.  The problem was that I used a table saw on the 22.5 degree angles for the sides...the chamfer bit wouldn't work...the table saw was effective for achieving the angle precisely and consistently, but the process of cutting it was prone to human error.  Thus the cuts weren't as smooth as could be.  Over all, though...I'm pleased with how it turned out, and the structure is sound, and once we're playing, that's all that will matter.

[laggerific]

For drilling the holes in your plexi I highly recommend using your router and not a drill bit.  The plexi needs to be drilled at very high speeds to avoid chipping.  You should use your CP cutout as the template for the plexi.  Use the router and a 1/4" or 1/2" straight cutting bit and plunge into the plexi over each hole.  Then switch over to your flush cutting/pattern bit and cut out the rest of the hole.  It is a little more time consuming this way but your chance of error is dramatically reduced.  Routers cut through plexi like butter!

I actually ended up using the boring bit I used for the wood on the plexi, and while it took more work to get it to start grabbing the plexi, it cut clean holes.  My buddy helped flush trim the rest of the face on the outer edge and the trackball hole.  Overall, I feel very lucky that it came out as well as it did.  The router took out the plexi so quick and clean, though, that I would use it for the holes the next time, for sure.  Would have needed a shorter flush trim bit, though.

[Joystick Jerk]

Chalk up another vote saying stay away from spade bits. I'm doing a project right now, and I didn't have the proper size of Forstner bit, so I tried one of my old spades on a scrap piece. The first hole was ragged, and the second hole destroyed the board since I need it very close to the first hole. I caved and went and bought the proper Forstner bit, and it worked great. Those things really do cut like butter.

Shop around though. You'll often see so-called "premium" bits from higher end manufacturers, that go for anywhere from $25 to $60 a piece, often sold at the big boxes like Lowes and Home Depot. If you have a dedicated tool store near you, try there, as you'll likely find high-quality Forstner bits for no more than $5 to $8 each.