Ethics in reselling with high markups

[CheffoJeffo]

There was a time when I would get upset at folks selling MAME setups in crappy converted cabs for thousands of dollars. Then I mellowed a bit, particularly when I saw fellow collectors selling 48-in-1 and 60-in-1 cabs for nearly four figures in order to fund their arcade habit hobby. Now, I figure if you build a cab and can sell it, then more power to you.

For some reason, it still bugs the crap out of me when I see somebody reselling commonly available gear for much higher than the retail price. I'm not talking about R@RE items, where I can see buying early and holding on to something until it is worth a bunch (say cornering the market on SW yokes back in the day), but essentially reselling somebody else's product at a substantial markup.

There is a member here who is selling repro artwork from ArcadeShop.com at 50-150% markup from the retail price ... and is even using the original vendors' pictures in his auctions.

That drives me nuts and I want to post in the thread that links to his auctions, but I also don't want to threadcrap because he never advertised those items here.

I am curious to here hear what other collectors think about the guys who just mark up the price on other people's stuff (this guy even claims that these are special order items, so additional handling time may be required ... like to, say, order them from the original vendor!). I ask not to encourage me to out the member as I have already decided not to -- but to see if that type of thing drives anybody else nuts, particularly when you know the real value and that the seller is just being predatory with folks who aren't as aware.

EDIT for typo.

[SavannahLion]

Yes and no. I see GGG and Ultimarc stuff marked up on ebay all the time. It's inevitable.

I used to be a member (I may still be, I wouldn't know) of a coding site where you would bid for projects. I figured it would be a good way to get money, build a portfolio, and get my foot in the door somewhere. Before too long, I kept getting low-balled by some guy who was bidding on several hundred projects at a time. No way a single person could write and debug so much code in such a short time. So I did some investigating and discovered that this guy was also a member on several coding sites and forums (I doubt he could write a simple Hello World). He would bid low on a project, win the contract, then present the project on a different site or forum, often masquerading as a homework project or offering "points" or whatever was appropriate for that site. Once he got the code, he would make minor alterations (for credit), get his money, and move on to the next project. I felt this violated the principle of the site so I emailed the webmaster about it.

You know what he said? The guy was doing a pretty good job sub-contracting and the webmaster wouldn't do a thing. I was devastated. I felt that the whole scenario was... I dunno... unfair I guess. I still held a lot of ideals of how the world worked back then. I left the site and tried to hack it out on my own. I checked back on the site about five years later when I found the link on an old computer. The site is a lot bigger now with a lot more members and that ---uvula--- was still on there underbidding on projects and, presumably, making oodles of cash. While I, who worked ---my bottom--- off those five years studying, applying for, and never getting a single programming position, just had been laid off from a manufacturing position. (I checked on the site, it's still there. Don't know if the guy is. Ironically, the closest three competitors to the website have all been black-listed by Google.)

In the years since, I learned a lot of hard lessons about money and life I wish I learned a lot sooner.

Does it irritate me that someone is doing what you're describing? You bet it does. But there's really very little one can do about it. About the best Arcadeshop can do is watermark his pictures to ensure people visit his website somehow.

[CheffoJeffo]

He is also selling repro CPs for a ton of money, but since the is effort involved in making those, I don't have nearly as much objection to it, even though he is using the wrong buttons, wrong joystick and seems completely fine with not mentioning that it isn't an actual replacement, but something that he has made.

I have noticed that he has been pointed out on a couple of other boards over the past 24 hours, so perhaps that answers my original question.

[RayB]

Caveat emptor.
Nothing more needs to be said. Technically, just about everything ever sold is "reselling someone else's stuff" (exceptions being home-made crafts, art direct from the artist, etc, but you get the point).

To some degree I believe that anyone who buys something without even a 5 minute price check via Google or Amazon deserves to pay whatever they felt was worth it when they agreed to click "checkout".

[CheffoJeffo]

Turns out he was also selling Kyle Lyndstrom's Midway cocktail plans on eBay at $10 a pop (the ones that are labeled "NOT FOR SALE").

[2600]

Ethics and this hobby do not go together.  I've met some really good people and some people put on a good face online, but overall I'd say the hobby is filled with some of the worst people I've ever had an encounter with.

When money is involved I get the impression a lot of people would stab their own mother if they had a chance to make 10 cents in profit.

[RayB]

Turns out he was also selling Kyle Lyndstrom's Midway cocktail plans on eBay at $10 a pop (the ones that are labeled "NOT FOR SALE").

That crosses the line in my book.
But I can see people pointing out that my argument above could just as easily apply to that situation too. However, in RayB-Land, it crosses the line. 

[Epyx]

I somehow believe this has always been an element of the hobby. I am pretty sure back in the day when many of us played arcade games in arcades and were not exposed to the business side that a lot of unscrupulous activity took place.

I have no proof but it's not a stretch to imagine people leasing/selling arcade games to corner stores/gas stations/laundry mats.arcades etc with bootleg boards or outrageous markups.

Either way...reselling someone else's "not for resale" stuff definitely crosses the line in my book as well. However, if it's legally resalable then buyer beware and do your homework

[Dartful Dodger]

People can't sell anything for more than other people are willing to pay for it.

Some people have the money and are willing to spend it on a product just to avoid the work involved with getting the same product cheaper or free.

If it wasn't for my friend buying a ridiculously over priced cabinet with MAME installed on it, I wouldn't even know it existed.

An old girlfriend of mine would be upset that my cousins were in their 30s making millions rehabbing and selling houses.  They came over from Ireland when they were in their teens, they worked hard on a farm their whole lives and when they came here they kept working hard.  This was back when hard work = $$$.  She was mad because they weren't Americans but they were making all this money in America.

I knew them when they were doing back breaking work from 5am to 8pm, while I drank and slept my way through college.

No matter how you say it, complaining about people making more money than you think they deserve just sounds like sour grapes.

[drventure]

She was mad because they weren't Americans but they were making all this money in America.

Wow. Be glad she's an ex! Sounds like someone had a BBBAAAADDD case of the entitlements

[CheffoJeffo]

Fair enough Dartful.

Sucker got outed for selling Jakobud's plans (as well as Kyle's) and is apparently undertaking legal action -- I've already received his lawyer's information.

[polaris]

Fair enough Dartful.

Sucker got outed for selling Jakobud's plans (as well as Kyle's) and is apparently undertaking legal action -- I've already received his lawyer's information.

so, have you got to get in contact with his lawyer now and ask to be sued?

[CheffoJeffo]

Apparently that is the new decorum.

He's not the brightest bulb in the box and proceeded to change his eBay auctions after he cried defamation lawsuit.

Apparently, he doesn't know me very well and I had to explain about screen captures and how, the second he cried lawsuit, I had to gather evidence since the truth is a complete defense.

I am so hoping to be on Judge Judy!

[smalltownguy]

Having played in both the B2B and consumer reseller markets with various items, my stance on gouging is this:

If the item is legal to sell, then you should sell it for every penny you can get.

If the item is legal to buy, then you should buy it for the least amount you can get it for.

When those two ideologies intersect, that's what closes a sale.

As a manufacturer, if my products are being (legally) sold at premium beyond my price somewhere, then shame on me for not reaching THAT target market effectively.

I'll stop there, so as to keep the thread out of P&R, which I don't yet have access to 

[Havok]

Fair enough Dartful.

Sucker got outed for selling Jakobud's plans (as well as Kyle's) and is apparently undertaking legal action -- I've already received his lawyer's information.

Can't you just ignore him - you're in Canada, after all. Or are you getting extradited to Michigan?

 

[CheffoJeffo]

You know me ...



It's OK though, I reached an understanding with his attorney ... his divorce attorney.

Once the separation period is over, all we need to do is sign the paperwork and we can get on with our lives... irreconcilable differences indeed!

[Havok]

[WhereEaglesDare]

I find this is this issue in coin collecting also.  I found a guy that had a bunch of stuff for sale at a table and I asked for prices and he said go ahead and pick out what you want and I'll price it, so I picked out a lot and showed him and he started saying this is 3 dollars this is 5 dollars and I said whoa whoa whoa and pulled out my price guide and said this coin is only worth 50 cent, but I want it I'll give you 1.50, and three times book value for all the others , take it or leave it, and then he pitched a fit at the damn place...  I said man, you dont have to be a baby about it, I just dont want to pay gauged prices for this stuff and left, he still has a table there, but I did see him with a big black eye a couple weeks after my incident and I felt good about it.

[bishmasterb]

I think this is just a good example of an arbitrage opportunity between a small, somewhat isolated market composed of highly-knowledgeable "experts," and a broader market of more casual users.

[Beretta]

in cases of selling things originally sold for the intent of non resale.. obviously thats wrong.

but those buying products like joysticks or making up mame cabs to sell (without roms or mame) i dont see a problem.
i mean they're just another middle man, if someone is willing ot pay for it then thats business.

the repo art i dunno.. seems like the supplier would be violating copyright laws, so is it really any LESS ethical to jack the price up and resale them?

and the mame cabs that come fully loaded are'nt ethical period.. in violation of both copyright and mame license agreement.. yet how many people successfully sale a mame cab with no mame and no roms?

i suppose we could argue the ethics of reselling someone elses products for high markup.. but it seems like there are already enough questionable practices that price would be the least of it.

[Xiaou2]

Right... and what are the ethics of owning and playing roms we do not have
boards for?

 And what are the ethics of the music industry suing old gramma's for
$50,000 a song?

 The whole world is a messed up place...  But Imop, its far more important to
pay attention to the stuff that really matters.  Such as Banning Priest from
being alone with children.     and Forcing the printer companies to price ink
at a reasonable rate.  Ohh, there is so much more... but I dont have that kind of
time or energy to get into that pile of poo.

 You want to talk about bad ethics, ...then talk about Auto sales.


 

[WhereEaglesDare]

It all goes back to the Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.  If you know it's a rip off and you pay for it anyways then you are just making it worse, and about printer ink, there are a ton of economical solutions for ink, but if you want the convenience of buying a name brand cart with ink already in it then you gotta pay for it.

If you go through life thinking everything is a rip off then it is.

[CheffoJeffo]

If you go through life thinking everything is a rip off then it is. you are 100% ready for coinop as a hobby.

Fixt that for you.

 

[Beretta]

just seen someone on CL selling 60-in-1 cab's.. not sure if they're taking classic games and gutting them or just fixing up old cabs but they had a cocktail and ms-pacman (iirc) they both looked like they had been referbed well.

trying ot unload them for 1299 dollars claiming they normally sell for 2500 

it kinda steamed me about it since we know those boards are'nt legit, and they was passing them off as legit.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I saw some one selling networking part
Title:  100MBS Cisco Hub

Body: 10MBS 24 Port Switch

$50.00

I emailed them asking what it is they were selling a hub or a switch, is it 100 mbs or just a 100 mbs backbone?  bottom line they have no idea what it is they are selling, but they knew they wanted to rip someone off.

[jeff412]

Guys, relax.  This is called. Capitalism and it is a good thing.   In no way is it gouging.  Gouging refers to charging exfroadinary prices for items that can normally be had much cheaper to people that have no choice.  For example, charging $1500 for a $500 generator after a hurricane to the people who were devistated by the storm. I experienced this after Rita and Ike destroyed se Texas.  I always ask more than I am willing to take on a game.  It gives me room to negotiate and give me a chance to make a little more money to support my hobby.  If these people wont negotiate on their prices, there is a good chance they paid too much and are just trying to reduce their losses.  Or maybe they just don't understand. Business. Very well.  Either way if their prices are too high they wont survive or it will increase the value of our stuff.  Just my two cents.

[WhereEaglesDare]

For example, charging $1500 for a $500 generator after a hurricane

Gouging isnt real, just a myth... now laws of supply and demand thats a reality.

I have 10 Generators and 50 perspective buyers... 

[jeff412]

I agree, but down here after a natural disaster they will send you on your merry way and not let you sell them.  I've been through Hurricane Rita and Hurricane Ike and seen it happen both times with semi truckloads of generators on the side of the road at outrageous prices.  The DPS will escort them out of the area.

[Shortbus]

this is so weird, i just stumbled on this thread, bored at work, about 2months ago i saw a guy from Michigan selling plans for coctail cab for $10 and it bothered me, since the exact plans are freely available on the internet. It bothered me enough to email this joker and call him out, he's a complete ---meecrob---, I agree with you guys, and hope he gets what he deserves, glad to see I share the views of the others on this site.

I'm in Florida, how about we rent a winnebago and pick up some members on the way up to Michigan and give this guy what he has coming, on the way back we can pickup arcade cabs from craigslist...to make the trip double-worthwhile.

lol   

[WhereEaglesDare]

what route you taking?  Going through Augusta at all?

[Dr Zero]

you taking 75 or 95 north   depending on maybe we can schedule a stop off

As far as markups go in my shop I not to go over say 30-50% I see others though go for avg 80% some up to 200%
I had rather do volume than try pay all my bills off one sale.

[BobA]

Hey lots of retail items are priced with more than 100% markup.   Look at jewelry and clothes.   I will say that you are justified in selling for whatever the market will bear.   If you cannot sell then your work is not up to par or you are asking too much.