kids and martial arts?

[Chadwick]

Chad, go spend some time on www.bullshido.net

It is a forum full of martial artists and instructors who try to sift the mystical BS from real, effective MA's.  They don't hold back either.  If a school/instructor/art is teaching or claiming something that is utter crap (which many do), they will call them out.  You will get the truth about any and all arts/instructors/schools there.

Use the search function to find threads about schools in your area or arts that are taught in your area.  Don't buy into the *bullshido*... get the truth.  Some of the styles heavily pimped in this thread are not anywhere near as effective as their practitioners would have you believe; they might look pretty, but pretty =/= effective.  Point sparring =/= effective.  Running compliant drills with your partner who is not resisting you =/= effective.   Any art that claims they have the REALLY REAL, super-secret, too deadly for MMA techniques is most likely bullshido.

Want to learn discipline, get in shape, build character, build self-esteem, build respect for others, make friends, have fun?.... just about any MA with a good instructor can provide this.

Want to learn to fight and defend yourself?
BJJ
Muay Thai
Judo
Boxing
Wrestling
Kyokushin Karate

That's not a complete list, but those are all good arts with no BS that will actually teach you how to fight.

[Xiaou2]

 The Mob squad speaketh.

 Funny, cause after a sparring visit to the local Kyokushin Karate place here...
the instructor wanted me to teach them some Wing Chun.

 Bullshido is just a bunch of kids with too much time on their hands, and nothing
better to do than to try to bash other arts with crappy and downright Wrong
arguments.

 

[Xiaou2]

 Its like this:

 Some people like to cook hamburgers.. cause its easy and fast, and fills your tummy.

 Some TRY to cook a Gormet meal, and fail many times in the process.

 The  Burgershidos  then  Bash the Gormets,  saying they cant cook for crap...
so their recipes must be useless.

 The thing is.. that the people who DO put in enough time and effort Can learn
to cook far better than anything the Burgershidos can make.

 
 So, it  "boils"  down to how much time and effort you want to expend... and what
kind of meal you want to end up with.


 Kungfu has a Lot more to learn and perfect, and not everyone has the time to
do so.  That does not mean it doesnt work well.  In fact, Ive proven its worth
many times over...  but then again, Im a dedicated and passionate person.
Not everyone is willing to stand on one leg in a bank while waiting.. so that the post
leg will be stable when you throw a powerful kick...

 

 

[Chadwick]

Clearly, you have THE REAL WING CHUN.

[shmokes]

Not everyone is willing to stand on one leg in a bank while waiting..
 

That kind of discipline is hard to find.

[ChadTower]

That kind of discipline is hard to find.

I don't think you find that discipline.  One either has it or does not.

I also don't think debating the street effectiveness of one martial art over another has any bearing at all on what I'm trying to do.  I'm not saying people here shouldn't be discussing it - it's a free thread - but I'm not looking to set my kids on a path to be Bruce Lee.  If they want to do that once they are old enough to make their own lifestyle decisions, cool, but I don't think the ability to end a fight in 3 seconds vs 30 seconds is part of the equation for an 8 year old.   

Something in the middle seems appropriate.  They don't need to be Jedi but they also don't need to be Cobra Kai.

[Hoopz]

Something in the middle seems appropriate.  They don't need to be Jedi but they also don't need to be Cobra Kai.

You can have gourmet hamburgers too.  Gourmet cooking isn't rocket science.  There's happy medium for most things like you're looking for.

[mpm32]

Ha Chad I take the blame for the thread going off the rails.  I posted about my experience with black belts when in fact it had nothing to do with the reason my daughter takes karate which is for the fun of it and not to kick someones azz.  And look where this thread went.

Sorry. 

[RayB]

Bad ass Martial Arts Kid!!

[ChadTower]

See, he's way better than the star wars kid.   

[pinballjim]

Man, there are days when I'm depressed about the direction my life has taken and then there are those moments of sunshine that reveal that no matter how bad it gets, I'll never have to pretend to take childrens' karate competitions seriously as a commentator for ESPN2.

[Chadwick]

Badass mullet anyway...

[shmokes]

Are you kidding?  You're thankful that you are not an ESPN commentator?  That job would be awesome!

[pinballjim]

Are you kidding?  You're thankful that you are not an ESPN commentator?  That job would be awesome!

ESPN vs ESPN 2, my friend.

[ChadTower]

Even ESPN2 is still just talking on TV about sports for a living.  Can't be THAT bad.

[shmokes]

Yeah, seriously.  It's like when people make fun of members of boy bands like nSync for being such fools.  But they're millionaire fools, which is more than I can say for, say, a fry cook.  I know which degrading job I would prefer. 

[ChadTower]

Might not be a good example... those guys don't make nearly as much as people think... all the money goes to the reps who signed them for pennies when they were random metrosexual teenagers.

[shmokes]

Yeah . . . it also depends, though.  Even entirely manufactured acts like nSync, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, etc., still end up sitting on a mountain of gold.  I know that less successful groups like 98 degrees might end up living large on the studio's dime during their heyday and then ending up with little in the bank, but I'm talking about the ones that it actually works out for.  And when it does, it really works out for them.  Of course the studio still pockets the majority, but even the small fraction of the revenue that they get to keep is still an enormous sum.

[pinballjim]

The guy that created those 90s boy bands is one of the most hilarious crooks in recent history... he was using them to float fraudulent blimp companies (while resembling one himself).  Most of the singers didn't end up with a dime, either. 

Vanity Fair had a frequently luzly article about the fiasco, complete with "come into my limo and let me put my finger inside you and you can join the band" insinuations!

[Xiaou2]

You may consider Wushu for a childs introduction to the arts...and for
shear acrobatic and graceful abilities gained:

5yr old Wushu Girl

Wushu Cutie

Wushu Boy

Quebec Wushu 2007

Wushu, is a form of Kungfu.  However, much of the power and realism has
been stripped away, and its more of a dance and acrobatics performance.
Still, there are many actual valid weapons and hand moves within each form.
These forms blow most TMA forms out of the water for shear depth of complexity.


 And for Shmokes, who thinks the Matrix style moves are unrealistic, here is a
decent drill that is done in WC at speed.  The good WC people can perform this stuff in a
live combat manor, without looking like a bad kickboxing or mma match.  The bad ones
simply need more practice.


 WARNING:  Master Wong Curses like a Drunken Sailor.   It will amuse !   heh

Decent WC Training & Concepts

Wing Chun Lesson 24 : basic energy drill/ punch drill

Body unity for power

Wing Chun Lesson 48: Block, cover and Elbow to the chest (Pad work)

Training with Armor

Fairtex Trainer's Protective Vest Form Master Wong Shop

Kicks, Energy Redirection & Short range Power

Jim Fung - Rare Wing Chun Kung Fu Demonstration

[shmokes]

LMAO, Xiaou, there's a reason I point to UFC as giving martial arts legitimacy.  You may as well be showing me WWE clips to legitimize wrestling.  Everything in those clips is staged.  It's choreographed.  Both people know what is coming from each other and they have collaborated beforehand.  It is exactly the same as The Matrix or Bloodsport.  The little girl is pretty cute, though. 

[ChadTower]

Xiaou2, I would never consider entering my kid in anything like that competition.

[shardian]

Xiaou2, I would never consider entering my kid in anything like that competition.

Huh? You wouldn't let your kid compete in a forms competition? I have a nice trophy sitting on my childhood memory shelf from winning 1st place forms in a regional tournament. Tournaments rule! Way more exhilarating than any other competitive sport I have ever competed in.

[ChadTower]

Huh? You wouldn't let your kid compete in a forms competition?

No, I wouldn't.  I'm not saying I disapprove of them.  I'm saying I have no desire to enter my kids in them. 

[Xiaou2]

Well, as you said, you were not looking to make your kids Bruce Lee, thus I provided an alternative idea.

 Wushu is like a dance class.   And like Dance classes, the students get
to show off what they have learned through great performances.

 Remember, its ultimately the kids choice... and most of them love
to perform what they have practiced.

 Interestingly enough, while many woman do not really get into real
combat arts... there are a lot of them interested and or practicing wushu.

 
 As for your comment Shmokes...  The drills prepare you for actual combat.
They make it so that your arms feel what is happening, and you make
the appropriate reactions based on your opponents energies.

 Its about taking up the spaces in the best manor to gain advantage.
About reading you ops next possible move.  About setting the op up,
such as when master wong shot a false blow, which made the guy block,
which allowed him the trap that hand and make a real hit without getting
hit himself.   Its much more than what can be descibred here.  But,
after you have gained real skill and proper reactions, Actual combat using
the moves Does in fact work.

 As for UCF, those guys are undertrained and sloppy.  The reason, is
they try to study too many things, and not perfect any of it.

[shardian]

Here's my 2 cents on MA for defense.

If I truly wanted to learn to defend myself, I would take a grappling based MA. There is a reason Jiu Jitsu has become the dominant MA for UFC fighting - it neutralizes all of the standing martial arts!

I would rather neutralize an opponent than break my fists on their face.

[pinballjim]

If I truly wanted to learn to defend myself, I'd take a concealed carry course.

[RayB]

Shmokes, what often looks like choreographed moves is actually that the fighters are trained in how to move with a blow in order to avoid or minimize its impact. Like for example one fighter gets you in a wrist lock and attempts to throw you. You have to jump/roll into the throw otherwise just standing there, pulling, or trying to resist it = broken wrist.

[shmokes]

 As for your comment Shmokes...  The drills prepare you for actual combat.
They make it so that your arms feel what is happening, and you make
the appropriate reactions based on your opponents energies.

That's all well and good, Xiaou, except that you posted those videos to prove to me what is possible with MA, and the only thing you proved is that two guys can dance in front of a camera.  RayB, what you are saying may or may not be true, but regardless the videos Xiaou posted are staged demonstrations.  You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

[Chadwick]

 As for your comment Shmokes...  The drills prepare you for actual combat.
They make it so that your arms feel what is happening, and you make
the appropriate reactions based on your opponents energies.

That's all well and good, Xiaou, except that you posted those videos to prove to me what is possible with MA, and the only thing you proved is that two guys can dance in front of a camera.  RayB, what you are saying may or may not be true, but regardless the videos Xiaou posted are staged demonstrations.  You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Exactly.

Drills don't prepare you for combat, COMBAT prepares you for combat... Boxers knock people out, chunners don't.  One good right cross or hook will knock someone out, chain punching won't.  You're comments about MMA are so delusional and/or willfully ignorant that I don't really have a comment beyond this: Where are all the awesome chunners in MMA?  Oh that's right.. The Chun is *too deadly* for MMA... ROFLMAO!

As for wrist-locks, they are good for subduing a drunk who is not serious about hurting you and that's about it.  No one ever has, or ever will end a fight with a wrist-lock.  Anyone trying to take your head off, under the influence of an adrenaline dump, is going to knock you the F out while you try to apply that wrist-lock... IF you can actually get your hands on their wrists to begin with, and IF you have a significant weight/size advantage.  I am ranked in Hapkido, so all you wrist-lock fans please try to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining... that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- don't work on anything other than a compliant partner or a 10 year-old.

Some of you guys need to step back from the indoctrination and apply a little critical thinking.  Judo, Boxing, BJJ, Sambo, Muay Thai, these are the MA's that WORK and have PROVEN themselves in combat against non-compliant partners.  I've been involved with MA's since 1984.  I've seen and heard a lot of BS in that 25 years and I get tired of it.

I have an appreciation for all MA's, but what I don't like is people making claims about a system that are utterly laughable.  A couple years of the Chun or a couple years of Aikido aren't going to turn you into a fighter.  They do offer many many other benefits however.

You want to do Wing Chun?  I think that's fantastic, but don't separate from reality and think that you're going to be some great fighter after a couple years doing chi sao because you're not.

Wing Chun Tournament (Gold Medal Fights!):

Wing Chun Kung Fu Competition

Muay Thai Fights:

Ramon Dekkers Highlight

Who would you rather fight?

[Chadwick]

As for UCF, those guys are undertrained and sloppy.  The reason, is
they try to study too many things, and not perfect any of it.

Under-trained?  Most professional MMA fighters train 40-80 hours a week;  How many do you train?

Sloppy?  Compared to what?  Standing in a line doing punching drills in horse stance?  Have you ever seen a full speed, full contact wing chun fight?  It looks like sissy slap, tippy-tap horseplay.

Try to study too many things?  No they don't, they study what is PROVEN EFFECTIVE (MT, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling mostly), and then only the techniques that are practical and effective.

Not perfect any of it?  I could spend 10 years perfecting a heel-hook kick... what good is it when someone takes me down?

[pinballjim]

No offense but you showed an entire polite fight vs a highlight reel of professional fighting... I've watched a -little- kickboxing and there is a whole lot of soft kicks to push each other back with a little bit of explosive kicking and punching here and there.  Much like regular boxing with the jabs - it's not all haymakers.

[ChadTower]

I can't believe we have gotten this far without a single Wang Chung joke.

[Chadwick]

No offense but you showed an entire polite fight vs a highlight reel of professional fighting... I've watched a -little- kickboxing and there is a whole lot of soft kicks to push each other back with a little bit of explosive kicking and punching here and there.  Much like regular boxing with the jabs - it's not all haymakers.

You're right, I did, but you try to find me a video of someone doing Wing Chun at full speed/contact... you can't because it doesn't exist.  WC practitioners don't compete above the level shown in that video.  Most WC practitioners don't even spar beyond chi sao drills... this is the heart of the problem with WC.

I have never trained WC, but my son used to take Jow Ga at a school that also taught WC.  The kids Jow Ga class was at the same time as the adult advanced WC class and it was in the next room without a wall between them.  I watched WC twice a week for 8 months and maybe saw some type of sparring on 2 or 3 occasions.  I am an experienced martial artist so I knew what I was looking at/seeing and could hear the teachers explaining the techniques/system.  I was completely underwhelmed with what I saw... and the Sifu is a direct student of Ip Ching (son of Yip Man), Head of the International Wing Chun Martial Art Association, and personal interpreter for Ip Ching whenever he visits the United States; so you can't say that what i saw wasn't *the real Wing Chun*.

Additionally, every Friday at the school was open gym night.  The guys from the MT class would always spar on Fridays and every once in awhile one of the WC guys would want to spar with them.  It was hilarious to watch guys with 3 months of MT training beat the crap out of guys with 2 years of WC training.

Here's a link to the school I'm talking about: http://chanskungfu.com/school/staff_sifu_chan.htm

Master Chan studied Wing Chun under Grand Masters Ip Ching and Ip Chun, the sons of the Great Grand Master Ip Man (teacher to the late Bruce Lee). The bulk of Master Chan's study was with Grand Master Ip Ching. Master Chan is a member and certified Wing Chun Instructor through the Hong Kong Ving Tsun Association, and a founding member and former director of the United States Ip Ching Ving Tsun Athletic Association, and has acted as the personal interpreter for Ip Ching on many of his U.S. visits. In 1996 Master Chan was recognized for his excellence in instruction and awarded the rank of Master by the U.S. Ip Ching Ving Tsun Athletic Association by Grand Master Ip Ching. Master Chan is also a founding member and current director of the International Wing Chun Martial Art Association, and is much sought after for his Wing Chun knowledge

[pinballjim]

Jeez... you know, leave it to men to take something WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and ruin it.



Can't Chad's kids get some exercise, maybe toughen up a little, and have some fun?

[Xiaou2]

Jiu Jitsu has become the dominant MA for UFC fighting - it neutralizes all of the standing martial arts!

I would rather neutralize an opponent than break my fists on their face.

 UFC  isnt real life fighting.  The two are vastly different, for a large
number of reasons.

 Grappling is a good thing to have under your belt.. but it certainly does
not guarantee you will walk away from a situation living!  Especially
if more than one attacker is involved.   A standing art Can, if you are
skilled enough.

 Also, grappler has to get past 2 ranges to be successful.  Kick range,
and punch range.  And the tools and tricks they use to do this are
weak, and extremely dangerous.

 Not so easy when you fight someone who isnt a wobbling clown,
or limited to which places you can strike.. as well as wearing gloves...etc.

 As said, Ive managed to Knock out 3 skilled grapplers so far.. when
they tried to enter.  I was being nice, and didnt use stomp kicks either...

 Intelligent interception is much safer and better means of combat.

 You intercept FIRST, THEN you Grapple if needed.  In case you didnt
realize, plenty of kungfu styles have grappling within them.


 Also, if you are in an art for protection... you had better have conditioned
arms and fists.  All it will take is one clash, and you will be done from the
searing bone pains, and deep tissue damages.

 I may respond to Basher later.  But in order to do so, it will be painful,
cause he has so much that he needs to learn.  Hes completely
brainwashed, like most people today.
   

[pinballjim]

I will pay the two of you $5 each to fight each other, film it, and post it here.

 

[CCM]

I'll kick in $5 a piece as well.

[saint]

Jeez... you know, leave it to men to take something WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and ruin it.



Can't Chad's kids get some exercise, maybe toughen up a little, and have some fun?

Yikes, write this down.

(I agree with PBJ)

[Hoopz]

I agree about getting the two together.  I'll chip in some too.

I'll make the book too.  Odds are 5-4 for Chadwick.

Don't get cocky though Chadwick.  You're only the favorite now until we find out that you had a flock o' seagulls hair cut also.