Firefox pissing contest.

[SavannahLion]

The first alternate browser I went to after I ditched Internet Explorer (back in my Win98 days) was Opera. I stayed with Opera for several years until I discovered an annoying graphic memory leak that causes the entire Windows OS to eventually display everything in 2-bit color. In other words over a course of time, Windows color depth would actually be reduced from 32/24, to 16, to 8 and eventually 2 bit color. This would effect every program and graphic function across the board with only one exception, Print Screen. Long story short, I traced the cause back to Opera after weeks of testing and had the bug confirmed by two other users.

However, Opera developers had their head up their ass and no amount of log files or convincing would get them to look into that bug other than the retarded response of "reboot your computer."

So I went to KDE (when I moved to Linux) for about a year. KDE is fine for quick browses but the more than a few pages didn't render properly. I needed a more serious browser with better rendering

So I ditched that crap and moved to Firefox and all was good....

Until sometime around 2007 or so when the hideous sec_error_reused_issuer_and_serial page reared its ugly head. Back then, the intentional bug was tolerable since it was a single click to gain access to the problematic site. But as new patches progressed, the procedure became more and more convoluted. Until this year when the last few FF updates actually forces the user to go through their certificates, delete them, go into another window to forcefully accept said certificate then go back to the questionable site to accept the defective certificate.

Users on the FF forum complained. One thread ran from 2007 to 2009 until a moderator closed it. FF dev solution? Contact the owner or manufacturer to update the certificate. That would be fine and dandy if the manufacturers still support their hardware. The FF developers absolutely refuse to budge on this issue.

Today I've just about had it. The sec_error_reused_issuer_and_serial problem is forcing my hand and I'm ready to say ---fudgesicle--- you, suck a whores  , eat dog ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and goodbye to Firefox. Without a workable solution that doesn't require 17 steps to force acceptance of "questionable" certificates, Firefox is not worth the effort anymore.

There is no browser war. It's just a bunch of lame ducks swimming around in a pond and the hunter has to make a pick between crap and crap.

So what's the next browser?

[danny_galaga]

I have no technical terms to complain about firefox, except to say it seems to hate certain sites like Facebook. If i try and upload a pic to facebook the pc pretty much freezes! If i have more than (it varies depending on what sites) say 4 tabs open the CPU use shoots up to about 100%!

Too hard to complain to the techs. Look where it got YOU, and you know what you're talking about! My solution? If i need to upload pics to facebook, i log into XP and use IE. Also I try and keep tabs to 4 or less...

[SavannahLion]

Interesting. I never noticed the CPU consumption onf 4+ tabs. I'll have to take a closer look. When I'm in Linux, I'm never on Facebook so I never spotted that.

My desktops are Linux and my laptops are Windows. It's strange but if I'm on Linux, I tend to do more work. If I'm on Windows, I tend to ---fudgesicle--- around more. (Yeah, that means I'm on Windows when I'm here  )

[AtomSmasher]

Head back to Opera, it's a completely different animal then it was several years ago, so your issue with it is almost certainly fixed.

[SirPeale]

Wild...I routinely have 15+ tabs open (sometimes as many as 45) and I've never had that CPU issue.

Nor have I seen the issue SavannahLion is talking about.  Not that I doubt it, just never seen it.

[ChadTower]

I see that CPU issue all the time.  It's a bad memory leak.  You can sit there in Process Explorer and watch the memory usage go up in real time.  It will jump by a couple K of memory every second even if you're not doing anything.  When it gets into that state the only thing you can do is kill the process and start over.

[hypernova]

Wild...I routinely have 15+ tabs open (sometimes as many as 45) and I've never had that CPU issue.

OK.  I'll bite.  You need up to nearly 50 tabs active why?

[patrickl]

I never understood why people need to find another browser besides Internet Explorer. It works fine. I liked version 7 better than the 8 version, but still.

I have just about every possible browser in different versions available for testing the websites we develop, but I just don't see the benefit. I needed to use FF for some sites (some crappy linux nerdboys refused to support internet explorer) and then FF updated the software and my plugins didn't work anymore.

[Grasshopper]

I never understood why people need to find another browser besides Internet Explorer. It works fine. I liked version 7 better than the 8 version, but still.

I have just about every possible browser in different versions available for testing the websites we develop, but I just don't see the benefit. I needed to use FF for some sites (some crappy linux nerdboys refused to support internet explorer) and then FF updated the software and my plugins didn't work anymore.

Well Internet Explorer used to have serious security problems. That's the main reason why I moved to Firefox.

Also, Microsoft used to deliberately ride roughshod over established standards and try to create de facto standards of their own in an attempt to consolidate their monopoly. That pissed off a lot of people and is possibly why your "Linux Nerdboy" decided not to support their browser. They've since mended their ways a bit, probably because they realised that with IE's declining market share it was actually doing them more harm than good.

[IG-88]

Is Google's Chrome out of the question? I've been using that for about six months and like it alot.

[Blanka]

Netscape 7.2 runs pretty good here 
Even decent mail program and HTML composing included.

[Level42]

Patrick is one of the millions of Dutchmen who can only slavely follow whatever comes out of Redmond.

It's a shame cause he's a really nice guy 

Gotta love IE8's "compatibility list" feature !!! WHaahahahahaha.

[david656]

+1 for google chrome.. i haven't tried the beta's just using the latest complete version but apart from an issue with photo bucket and 1 or 2 sites i've tried to use.. oo and your router 192.168 jobby, i think google chromes the best browser i've tried ! the tabs on vista is FAR superior to anything IE7 could do ! the only thing better than google chrome is IE6!

give it a try ! and if you uninstall it it even pops up an evaluation form ! really worth while 

[patrickl]

I never understood why people need to find another browser besides Internet Explorer. It works fine. I liked version 7 better than the 8 version, but still.

I have just about every possible browser in different versions available for testing the websites we develop, but I just don't see the benefit. I needed to use FF for some sites (some crappy linux nerdboys refused to support internet explorer) and then FF updated the software and my plugins didn't work anymore.

Well Internet Explorer used to have serious security problems. That's the main reason why I moved to Firefox.

Firefox has had more leaks than Internet Explorer. Maybe the IE leaks get more publicity, but it never really made browsing safer.

Also, Microsoft used to deliberately ride roughshod over established standards and try to create de facto standards of their own in an attempt to consolidate their monopoly. That pissed off a lot of people and is possibly why your "Linux Nerdboy" decided not to support their browser. They've since mended their ways a bit, probably because they realised that with IE's declining market share it was actually doing them more harm than good.

I develop websites. All browers have their faults and incompatibilities. Many (if not all) of those are by accident rather than on purpose. The point then is that most sites will make sure it works well with the biggest marketshare. That's Internet Explorer. Only after that they will make sure it works for the next.

Just to try I hacked the "nerdboy site" and it works perfectly well under Internet. Indeed they were just being annoying.

[patrickl]

Patrick is one of the millions of Dutchmen who can only slavely follow whatever comes out of Redmond.

It's a shame cause he's a really nice guy 

Gotta love IE8's "compatibility list" feature !!! WHaahahahahaha.

Yeah, when I've got perfectly good software out of the box, which is supported by just about every site in the world, I don't see the need to switch.

So sure, mock me for being one of the billion or so "followers" who are making their decision on logic rather than the "non conformists" who pay twice what they should pay for outdated stuff with the most bugs of any OS, just because it's shiny and has a rotten apple on it. Or use a browser that no one else uses and then complain that many sites don't work properly.

I liked Opera. It's a nice browser and back then it was ahead of it's time. It didn't really offer much extra that I needed, but since I have just about every browser available installed already anyway, that's the one I liked best. Trouble is I use a lot of different computers (virtual or physical) and then I just use what's there. Switching browsers then is more of a nuisance than that the few minute advantages of another browser would make up for in real life.

So yeah I use what is most practical. Not what is most shiney and most non-conformist.

BTW by now Opera is the biggest security risk and Chrome and Safari aren't be far behind it. If you want to lock it up, put the browser in an independent sandbox and don't rely on the browser.

[massive88]

BTW by now Opera is the biggest security risk and Chrome and Safari aren't be far behind it. If you want to lock it up, put the browser in an independent sandbox and don't rely on the browser.

Dont lump chrome in with safari!

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2009/03/chrome-is-the-only-browser-left-standing-in-pwn2own-contest.ars

And from the wrap up blog of one of the administrators of the contest:

The contest uncovered 4 new and unique critical vulnerabilities affecting the latest and greatest versions of IE, Safari and FireFox. The Chrome browser gets a small nod for being impacted by one of the flaws, although exploit is not possible using any current known techniques.

Chrome also aces the Acid3 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid3

If only it had mouse gestures...

[Grasshopper]

So sure, mock me for being one of the billion or so "followers" who are making their decision on logic rather than the "non conformists" who pay twice what they should pay for outdated stuff with the most bugs of any OS, just because it's shiny and has a rotten apple on it. Or use a browser that no one else uses and then complain that many sites don't work properly.

No, most people make their decision based on inertia and ignorance. They use IE simply because it comes bundled with Windows.

[patrickl]

BTW by now Opera is the biggest security risk and Chrome and Safari aren't be far behind it. If you want to lock it up, put the browser in an independent sandbox and don't rely on the browser.

Dont lump chrome in with safari!

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2009/03/chrome-is-the-only-browser-left-standing-in-pwn2own-contest.ars

And from the wrap up blog of one of the administrators of the contest:

The contest uncovered 4 new and unique critical vulnerabilities affecting the latest and greatest versions of IE, Safari and FireFox. The Chrome browser gets a small nod for being impacted by one of the flaws, although exploit is not possible using any current known techniques.

Isn't that more becuase no hackers even attempted to hack it?

I liked the sandbox thing. Like I said I often use sandbox software. Or rather I install sandbox software for people who cannot help getting their computer infected and then call me to fix it. It really does work. Makes things slower and more cumbersome though. So the chrome sandbox sounds nice, but it has had many vulnerabilities. So the included sanbox doesn't really protect you completely.

Chrome also aces the Acid3 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid3

That's like saying "Our user manual is printed on recycled paper". It's more a marketing thing than that it would really be of interest to users. I guess in the end it would be "good for the environment" if every browser rendered 100% according to the standard, but web builders will make sure their website works with Internet Explorer and Firefox anyway.

[patrickl]

So sure, mock me for being one of the billion or so "followers" who are making their decision on logic rather than the "non conformists" who pay twice what they should pay for outdated stuff with the most bugs of any OS, just because it's shiny and has a rotten apple on it. Or use a browser that no one else uses and then complain that many sites don't work properly.

No, most people make their decision based on inertia and ignorance. They use IE simply because it comes bundled with Windows.

True, but that also makes it the best choice. It works fine, it's the browser that is best supported and the other options don't really add anything that would warrant switching for 99% of the user when you look at it with realism.

[Level42]

So sure, mock me for being one of the billion or so "followers" who are making their decision on logic rather than the "non conformists" who pay twice what they should pay for outdated stuff with the most bugs of any OS, just because it's shiny and has a rotten apple on it. Or use a browser that no one else uses and then complain that many sites don't work properly.

Man, we've SO been there and done that !

O, Safari is free

No- one else huh....let me tell you, without  the competition of FF, Opera, Chrome and Safari what would IE have looked like now ? Exactly the same as it did ages ago, because MS simply only steals the ideas of others, like they've always done and always will.
The same goes for every new OS they launch, it's full of everything they saw somewhere else.

But as mentioned, let's stop this discussion because we will never agree. So let's talk about your latest arcade related project ?? 

[ChadTower]

Well Internet Explorer used to have serious security problems. That's the main reason why I moved to Firefox.

Firefox has had more leaks than Internet Explorer. Maybe the IE leaks get more publicity, but it never really made browsing safer.

Memory leaks are not security risks.  They're just a pointer shot off into space without control.  It generally isn't something you can control and thus exploit.

[patrickl]

Well Internet Explorer used to have serious security problems. That's the main reason why I moved to Firefox.

Firefox has had more leaks than Internet Explorer. Maybe the IE leaks get more publicity, but it never really made browsing safer.

Memory leaks are not security risks.  They're just a pointer shot off into space without control.  It generally isn't something you can control and thus exploit.

Ah sorry, with leaks I meant "security leaks". Guess that's not a term really

The point I was trying to make was that there are more security risks reported for Firefox than for IE 7 and/or IE 8. Even when there are probably a lot more hackers trying to break IE security than there are people hacking FireFox.

I guess the point is even more that that is not something that browser selection is really based on anymore. Chrome had some really serious flaws at first, but they seem to have overcome those.

Only Safari on a Mac is something that is still really easy to hack, but then there aren't many users so there aren't much hackers trying to exploit that buggy platform. Overall probably still a pretty minimal risk.

[SirPeale]

Wild...I routinely have 15+ tabs open (sometimes as many as 45) and I've never had that CPU issue.

OK.  I'll bite.  You need up to nearly 50 tabs active why?

Not all the time.  Usually have around 15 open at any given time because there are several sites I check on a frequent basis.   The other 30 are only opened once a day - they're webcomics I follow.

[RayB]

It's not the number of security holes that matters, its how many exploits there are and how widespread they are!  I gave up IE 6 back in the day, switching to Firefox 2 because IE was getting nasty trojans from all sorts of places, even seemingly innocent sites. So the safest thing to do is use the browser that wasn't getting exploited. Then Firefox 3 came around... and a couple updates later it started crapping out on me, (process kept hanging ) so I switched "back" to IE 7, which has served me fine so far (but I don't browse for warez or anything like that, so my habits help keep it safe).

[HaRuMaN]

I still use Lynx...   

[patrickl]

I still use Lynx...   

Yeah, I use Lynx a lot too. It's good for testing sites for use by the visually impaired. It also works nice for taking stuff off websites when people try to prevent you from downloading their stuff.

[danny_galaga]

I never understood why people need to find another browser besides Internet Explorer. It works fine. I liked version 7 better than the 8 version, but still.

I have just about every possible browser in different versions available for testing the websites we develop, but I just don't see the benefit. I needed to use FF for some sites (some crappy linux nerdboys refused to support internet explorer) and then FF updated the software and my plugins didn't work anymore.

Well, i use Firefox because i use Linux. It came bundled with it. I had tried Firefox in XP and so got used to it. But it does ahve some annoying bugs (at least on this PC). I couldn't even make Opera work 

Things seem to go in cycles. A few years ago, Firefox was just much better to use than IE in XP (for me). But now i'm using Linux, on the rare occasions i go into XP, IE is much better to use!

[patrickl]

I never understood why people need to find another browser besides Internet Explorer. It works fine. I liked version 7 better than the 8 version, but still.

I have just about every possible browser in different versions available for testing the websites we develop, but I just don't see the benefit. I needed to use FF for some sites (some crappy linux nerdboys refused to support internet explorer) and then FF updated the software and my plugins didn't work anymore.

Well, i use Firefox because i use Linux. It came bundled with it. I had tried Firefox in XP and so got used to it. But it does ahve some annoying bugs (at least on this PC). I couldn't even make Opera work 

Things seem to go in cycles. A few years ago, Firefox was just much better to use than IE in XP (for me). But now i'm using Linux, on the rare occasions i go into XP, IE is much better to use!

Well that's what I mean, why not use whatever your computer comes with. You choose an URL, the page displays and you can read it and click links. It's not like another browser is going to offer a much different experience.

[danny_galaga]

I never understood why people need to find another browser besides Internet Explorer. It works fine. I liked version 7 better than the 8 version, but still.

I have just about every possible browser in different versions available for testing the websites we develop, but I just don't see the benefit. I needed to use FF for some sites (some crappy linux nerdboys refused to support internet explorer) and then FF updated the software and my plugins didn't work anymore.

Well, i use Firefox because i use Linux. It came bundled with it. I had tried Firefox in XP and so got used to it. But it does ahve some annoying bugs (at least on this PC). I couldn't even make Opera work 

Things seem to go in cycles. A few years ago, Firefox was just much better to use than IE in XP (for me). But now i'm using Linux, on the rare occasions i go into XP, IE is much better to use!

Well that's what I mean, why not use whatever your computer comes with. You choose an URL, the page displays and you can read it and click links. It's not like another browser is going to offer a much different experience.

Yes and no. I was happy to use IE when i was using XP until i was hit with some trojans much like RayB described. A friend suggested Firefox so i was using Firefox on XP too. So yes, I'm no one to bother customising or pimping something that works, but when it stops working, i'll look around (a bit, until i get bored and give up  )

[patrickl]

So yes, I'm no one to bother customising or pimping something that works, but when it stops working, i'll look around (a bit, until i get bored and give up  )

Well I wouldn't mind switching on something that works if something comes along that works a lot better. Thing is, like I said, I have all browsers installed on a test computer (for web site testing) and I don't see any big difference that would urge me to swap.

I guess the main differences are:
- Chrome is faster and ultimately should be more secure with the built-in sandbox (although I feel it's just not quite there yet and I'm not to keen on Google's privacy invasion)
- Opera has it's gestures (which I don't like at all)
- Firefox has it's plugins (although I have never seen a useful plugin) other than that I feel it's the worst browser available.

I personally think a browser needs tabs and needs to be able to draw most pages accurately. I also couldn't (wouldn't like to) do without a secure password tool (like Identity safe) that automatically fills in the passwords on all sites.

[protokatie]

(although I have never seen a useful plugin)

NoScript?

[patrickl]

(although I have never seen a useful plugin)

NoScript?

Never felt the need for it no. Otherwise I'd put the site in "limited access" or something. For instance I put "doubleclick.net" in the limited access sites to get rid of their stuff (on other websites).

Indeed it would come in handy if you go to lots of potentially unsafe sites though.

[SirPeale]

I personally like Better GMail plugin.  Adds some nice features to GMail.