Ram-Controls StarWars Yoke

[_Iz-]

There seems to be some updates to the Ram-Controls website. Looks like the yoke is open for more pre-orders with actual orders being filled by October 30, 2009.

[Bender]

I've always been one of those to say wait and see, and give the guy the benefit of the doubt on the Star Wars Yoke project but given the past delays and problems with people waiting several years for pre-orders
I have to say I'm Shocked that he is doing pre-orders again
He had better be DAMN sure that everything is worked out this time before taking pre orders again
I was thinking of pre ordering the first time around and am glad I hesitated, and would certainly not do now till someone here gets one

But...       I hope they are really done this time it would be great!

[ahofle]

Wow, looks like the 720 controller is coming along nicely.
http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-720.html

[Bender]

Wow, looks like he finished the 720 controller!
http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-720.html

Not yet..

just the Sticks, looks pretty good though

[FrizzleFried]

Solid brass...   

[Ummon]

Solid brass...  

What?  Where's that?

[Daviea]

Hey Guys,

Before we begin with the pile-on....

Yes, I opened up pre-orders again.  I gave myself some extra padding for the time-line for the just-in-case issue that might pop up.  However, that said, I am only a single part away from getting the yokes out the door.  ONE component, that's it.  The real time crunch is assembling all of the yokes.  I have been keeping the number quiet for the most part, but my initial run is 1000 units with enough handle and steering weldments for another 1500 units, plus enough handles and gears for at least another 2000 units.  If I ever sell out of the first 1K, I'll have to make more of the internal metal components (shafts, spring pins, etc), but I doubt that would occur anytime soon, especially given the current market.  No worries, I'll sit on these controllers for the rest of my life if I have to.  LOL

Plus, and this is a BIG part of my master plan, I'm not currently out of the country (the United States, that is) and I have no plans to leave the country on anymore contract gigs (or vacation, or for any other reason), so I'm here to work on these projects FULL TIME.  I'm sure you've noticed me around these parts a lot more lately....right?  Anyhow, I can get a lot of work done when I'm at the helm of RAM Controls.  And work has definitely been getting completed on an accelerated level as of late.

All I have to say is that the *very* long wait is about over. :-)

When the yokes are out, I fully expect all the hoopla to be related to how fricken AWESOME the yokes turned out.  OK?  haha  No more of the, "what have you done for us today?" chanting.

Oh, and I'm SO ready for this yoke project to be over with.  <<prepping to remove thorn from side>>

So, stay tuned and watch for updates and constant reproduction releases.  I have a heap of parts coming out in the upcoming weeks/months, so sit down and enjoy the ride!

David Adams
RAM Controls

[Bender]

Great to hear David

Can't wait to see them!

[FrizzleFried]

I've learned a harsh lesson here.  I will never again accept a pre-order for any ongoing project. [emphasis mine]

Ok, with all of this said, people will be happy to know that the powdercoating problem has been resolved.  We will have completed yokes available shortly. [emphasis mine]  And with that, I'm outta here.

January 17, 2008

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64536.msg785427#msg785427

Like I said before, I feel bad for making you wait and, looking back, I think the whole pre-order idea was a mistake [emphasis mine] given the unforeseen delays.

January 17, 2008

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64536.msg784754#msg784754

Saint, I'm not accepting pre-orders any longer.  Not for this item or any other item in the future. [emphasis mine]

October 28, 2007

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64536.msg750810#msg750810

Ok, backing up a little bit, the entire project is done EXCEPT for:  (a) powdercoating the housing(the single part that the yoke artwork is applied to) (b) powdercoating the handles and (c) assembly of the device.[emphasis mine]

October 26, 2007

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64536.msg750385#msg750385

However, that said, I am only a single part away from getting the yokes out the door.  ONE component, that's it.  The real time crunch is assembling all of the yokes. [emphasis mine]

June 16, 2009

This very thread (above)... look familiar?

 

EDIT: I just found this doozy...

Yoke update:  The parts are all finished. The only thing remaining is to assemble, test, pack and ship.

February 4, 2009

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=89232.msg936549#msg936549

Dave... could you please explain (A) Why you're accepting pre-orders again when you made it very clear that you wouldn't be doing such a thing again since it was such a "mistake"?  (B) How said "part" that needs to be completed went from being almost complete,  to being complete,  to being almost complete again?  (C) Why on earth would you draw attention to this fiasco YET AGAIN with another pre-order situation? (I would have thought that you'd only even mention this project when it was completed and ready to ship??)

I am at a loss for words...and that's incredible being that I am such an opinionated son-of-a----smurfette---,  eh?

[Daviea]

Friz,

You sure have gone to a lot of trouble to dig into this.  Knowing you, I can understand why. :-)

Obviously, I have free will and the ability to change my mind.  Heck, I may even have a good reason for it.  LOL  I already explained why I was accepting pre-orders and I will leave it at that.

The real issue I see here is going from almost completed - to - completed - to - almost completed which does merit an explanation.  To understand how this can happen, you'd need to know the entire process I've had to go through to produce this controller which I will admit has not been entirely transparent to everyone looking from the outside.  First and foremost, this is a monster of a project.  So much a monster that nobody before me (except for Atari, of course) has been willing or able to take it head-on.  I completely respect those who have at least attempted to look into it but later passed.  Why?  Because it's one major headache after another AND it requires skill, determination, patience and serious cash reserves. 

Before I go into a long rant, I'm just going to simplify the explanation for everyone.  I discovered that one part of the Star Wars yoke project which I had already made (and was NOT part of the rebuild kits) was unacceptable in that it wasn't a perfect fit, so I went back to remake the part (which is the part I mentioned earlier in the thread).  I will admit that this action is probably driven by my apparent OCD, but the part NEEDED to be remade as far as I am concerned.  I seem to be the resident expert on Atari controllers, so I have to believe that my opinion on the subject is the final word!  LOL  Besides, the last thing I need is to take any flak over a controller that's anything less than perfect, especially given the long wait and the enormous amount of tension.  I can take the kind of flak I'm getting now because I'm opening myself up to it, but I'll never knowingly allow the quality of my repro parts to come under fire when it's something I can avoid by my own actions.

So, there it is.  I messed up making one part and I need to remake it.  Hey, at least I caught it before sending out the yokes!  Really, there's nothing stunning about this development, it's just the way things go.  In fact, if you look at my history of being anal-retentive about the quality of my parts, you'd know that an action like this is well within my behavior pattern.  End of story.

Quite frankly, having this topic open again is an excellent avenue for advertising the fact that the product is almost available.  I'll take my knocks over it, but the fact remains that I have an enormous investment in this product and I want to sell as many as possible to recoup as much as possible as quickly as possible.  Having to go back and redo the handles earlier in the timeline of this project PLUS one other part has caused an unplanned increase in my overall cost....which, of course, I was happy to drop the $$ down on.  In fact, the dollar figure I have dropped into this project would be unfathomable to most of you.  I won't make that figure public, but a few of you ARE aware of this.  It's pretty extreme.

I was hoping to avoid a pile-on and so far this has been relatively lax, so I'll take it in stride.

Again, I have finally decided to set a hard date for release based on the current state of this project.  Pre-orders ARE open again, but only for a limited time.  As soon as the product is ready and begins shipping, the pre-order will close and the price will go up exactly $15 to $250. 

David Adams
RAM Controls

[FrizzleFried]

Knowing you, I can understand why. :-)

But Dave,  you don't know me?

[Daviea]

Friz,

But I do know you.  Perhaps I do not know you personally.  However, I do know you on the forums, particularly this one.  And that qualifies as knowing you, in my book.  Well, at least enough to comment on your behavior as related to the forums.  I know how you react to pretty much everything posted up on the forums, especially when it's Star Wars Yoke related.   So, I'm not in the least surprised by anything in your post.  You're thorough and consistent if anything, I'll give you that.  LOL

So, I absolutely understand your position on this and why you keep poking at it.  Looking at it from your point of view, I can appreciate it.  And you will never be at a loss for words. :-)

Hey, don't get me wrong.  I value the fact that we can all express our opinions, it's one small factor which makes this country a great place.  You're completely entitled to your opinion and I do value the ball busting on some level because it does keep me in check.  However, when the yoke gets completed, I fully expect a followup response on the subject from you. 

Just sit back and watch how this plays out.  Maybe you will be pleasantly surprised.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[FrizzleFried]

Friz,

But I do know you.  Perhaps I do not know you personally.  However, I do know you on the forums, particularly this one.  And that qualifies as knowing you, in my book.  Well, at least enough to comment on your behavior as related to the forums.  I know how you react to pretty much everything posted up on the forums, especially when it's Star Wars Yoke related.   So, I'm not in the least surprised by anything in your post.  You're thorough and consistent if anything, I'll give you that.  LOL

So, I absolutely understand your position on this and why you keep poking at it.  Looking at it from your point of view, I can appreciate it.  And you will never be at a loss for words. :-)

Hey, don't get me wrong.  I value the fact that we can all express our opinions, it's one small factor which makes this country a great place.  You're completely entitled to your opinion and I do value the ball busting on some level because it does keep me in check.  However, when the yoke gets completed, I fully expect a followup response on the subject from you. 

Just sit back and watch how this plays out.  Maybe you will be pleasantly surprised.

David Adams
RAM Controls

Well David,

This time around I think all I did was collect a few comments you made in the past about this project and pointed out the fact they conflicted,  but you can rest assured that if/when this project gets completed,  I'll have something to say about it.

For the record - I've never once made a negative comment regarding the quality of the parts you've made available as they're quality from what I've heard and seen myself (I do have a yoke kit I've pulled parts from)...

[Neverending Project]

...snip...

...snip...

...snip...

...snip...

Nicely done, gentleman. This thread right here is a perfect example of how two people can discuss a previously heated topic in a civil, mature, rational manner. Facts, quotes and even rebuttals were presented without one use of a smurf poop or an emoticon.

Nice work.
 

[Kevin Mullins]

presented without one use of a smurf poop or an emoticon.

And yet you managed to do both.   

[Level42]

Heh, I've had my opinion vented a long time ago. It wasn't very favorable for David. Even so, I think I stayed civil enough, and even more so David who stayed cool and polite.

Since David released the wide SW cockpit T-molding he can't do much wrong anymore in my eyes

Yes, call me inconistent or whatever, i don't care. It was the part of my most beloved machine that I thought I'd never see the day being able to replace it with brand new material that is exactly like the original.

Having read David's great notes on Ram Controls' site AND having been working on my SW yoke, I can imagine how much work is/was involved with recreating something as complicated as that. Through e-mail I discussed with David the poor production of the handles. The covers really poorly fit the base of the handles on the original I'm sure that David didn't want to releas it that way. That probably meant either correcting or making new molds for these handles.

Here's a couple of pics to show how bad the originals are (screws mounted !!!):






I'm positive that David refused to produce the yoke with handles like this and thus re-did them......

Anyway, the yoke-kits and T-molding show how much attention David has for detail and he's just not releasing stuff until he's 100% satisfied. I prefer that over the current habit of manufacturers of dumping half finished products on the market.

I'm trying to help David with a lot of details on the SW cockpit cab right now (materials on their way to you David ) so I must say a lot changed in a couple of years

Even so, I tend to agree with Friz that if I would have been David, I would have chosen not to re-open pre-orders and would have simply released the product to the old-time pre-orderers first and then to the rest of us. But that's just MHO.

[1UP]

Are we still talking about pre-orders on these yokes?  Last time I was active on these boards was over 3 years ago, and that was around the time these were first announced if I remember correctly...   

I'm of the opinion that pre-orders on this kind of involved mega project are a bad, BAD idea.  When it's a huge reseller like Amazon where you're 99% assured of receiving the product as early as the day of release, pre-orders are fine and dandy.  In this kind of cottage industry, pre-orders more often than not are an excuse to get money for production before any product exists, which is very dangerous for both the seller and the buyer.  I've learned that lesson first hand on both sides of the table, and I'd never repeat the experience.

On the seller's side, the stress to get the product done on too optimistic a timeframe, and then potentially stressing about paying the customer back when that timeframe has long passed and the money may have already gone into production of an incomplete product, is just not worth it.  Stringing paying customers along for months/years on the promise of delayed delivery is just embarassing. 

And of course as a buyer, many of us can't just blow off $100+ on a product that is never delivered, or is perpetually on hold, and that can be extremely frustrating as well--especially if the company disappears while orders are still outstanding.  I'm not saying that's what's happening in this case and I certainly hope not, but we've all heard of cases where the customers were left high and dry waiting for orders that either went "poof", or waited months on end for shipments or refunds.

Anyway, seems like we've seen this pattern of "pre-order then produce" again and again around here, and it's bitten a LOT of people in the caboose.  Hell, I've been guilty of it myself in the past, and while I was able to fulfill most of those orders in the end, it was a freakin' white-knuckled ride every single minute until they were actually out the door, and I think it was a huge mistake to market things that way.

A teaser or preview photo here and there is great, but I think it is wisest for all involved to only sell products that are in hand at the moment.  Those who hold back the hype completely until they actually have product on the shelf ready to ship really come out looking like heroes.  Ultimarc and GGG are two good examples of this.

"Awesome new product, ready to ship":  Sign me up!
"Potentially awesome dream product, in development/awaiting re-design of parts and now taking pre-orders":  ...Not so much.

[Level42]

1UP, you may want to read up everything discussed about it here in the 3 years you missed. All you wrote is SUCH a dead horse.....

[1UP]

1UP, you may want to read up everything discussed about it here in the 3 years you missed. All you wrote is SUCH a dead horse.....

Yeah, I have time for that...  If something I said is wrong or irrelevant, so be it.  I don't know what happened with this in the last few years but it sounds like nothing shipped.  I just think pre-orders usually blow up in your face.

[miles2912]

If there is just one part missing - how about some assembled pictures of everything else.  I see a lot of pics on the web site of small parts.  Put what you have together as of now and snap a few photos.  Or better yet make a vid an post it on youtube.

When I hear pre-order I get very nervous about dropping money on what amounts to some well written long posts, a web site with a lot of fluff and the 3 shipping products - 2 t-molding and a shaft with a ball on it for a game that very few people have.

I don't mean to sound like a skeptic but come on ...

Maybe link an address to your building posted on the web site so a few people local to so cal can stop by and check out first hand what is in the works.

[polaris]

just dont prorder if it bothers you, david has offered and honoured refunds to those who found the wait too much. afaik 1 person is in for a preorder, if you look at the refunds and what david has sent out free and extra on orders to people, it would suggest hes a bloody awful scammer.

EDIT AGAIN ; if that reads like im suggesting he is a scammer, but not a very good one , please be clear im not,

[Bender]

When I hear pre-order I get very nervous about dropping money on what amounts to some well written long posts, a web site with a lot of fluff and the 3 shipping products - 2 t-molding and a shaft with a ball on it for a game that very few people have.

to be fair he is shipping probably over a hundred different hard to get arcade parts, the three you listed were just his latest release
check out the major havoc roller and the atari cone buttons fantastic stuff! Everyone who has gotten those has loved them, so It's not a question of quality from dave, it just how long

although I'm still with you on the pre-order front

[Daviea]

.....a web site with a lot of fluff and the 3 shipping products - 2 t-molding and a shaft with a ball on it for a game that very few people have.

3 parts shipping?  Perhaps you should take a much closer look at the website.

Better yet, take a gander at the following link here on BYOAC and see a sampling of my recent specials here on BYOAC.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=93132.0

I have made available a very large number of parts to the arcade community since 2006 and it's very likely that nobody else would have ever taken on most of these items.  I still believe this is boiling down to the "what have you done for us today" issue.  Well, I even have an answer to that argument: 2-1/4" t-molding!  1-1/2" t-molding!  720 handles!  These are only my very latest releases.  Sadly, no amount of hard work, nor good will, nor constant attention to questions and the forums will ever be enough to satisfy everyone. 

Question:  has anyone even noticed that I'm around daily and easily contacted now?  I've got updates, answers, pictures and comments flowing at a constant rate.

I really have nothing to prove to anyone, but I can appreciate the passion in the community.  I share this passion, I just happen to focus my passion into making reproduction parts.  That said, if you don't like pre-orders or you're a skeptic of them, that's fine -- just don't place an order.  Wait until it's no longer vapor-ware and an actual shipping product and THEN order at the release price (if you ever wanted one in the first place).  It's as simple as that. 

I would like to reiterate yet again.  ANYONE who currently has a pre-order with me and is unwilling or unable to wait, all they have to do is let me know and they will receive a refund in full, no questions asked.  It can't possibly be any easier than this.  No scam.  No secret agenda.  No taking the money to run off to Aruba.  Just reproduction parts as fast as *I* can get them finished.

There's no point beating it any longer, the horse has been dead for some time now.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[Daviea]

Hey,

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with these handles.  It was ONE serious issue I was having with them --  the fact that the two halves didn't mate up properly was driving me INSANE.  I still can't believe that Atari let these parts out into the wild like this.  It simply boggles my mind because it's such POOR quality.  Add to that the fact that the alloy they used is relatively weak, it only makes matters worse.  The handles presented far more trouble than this alone, however.  I won't get into those details, but suffice to say, the handles have been a headache from the start.

Anyhow, my reproduction handles are a complete remake.  None of that permanent mold rubbish that Atari concocted.  I'm sorry, but they were junk as far as I am concerned.

BTW, with everything that you and I have worked on recently, I haven't told you nearly enough how thankful I am of your contributions to my reproduction projects.  So, THANK YOU again.  :-)

I'm glad that you (and others) can see that I pay close attention to the details when it comes to the reproduction parts I make.  In fact, I will remake prototypes countless times until I'm 100% satisfied that it's absolutely perfect before I commit to the production run.  The down side is that this way of thinking can potentially bring my prices up (as in the case with the SW yoke), but more importantly, it also lengthens the amount of time I spend on projects as well.  I can site numerous instances where this is the case, but I believe each situation has probably already been mentioned or complained about by someone out there.  LOL

The bottom line is that my intention to make the parts as perfect as possible far outweigh my need to make them quickly.  In an ideal world, I could do both, but I live in reality.  So, if I have to choose one over the other, doing it correctly takes the lead.  I really don't mean to drive people crazy, infuriate them or fuel the skepticism with the long wait times, it's just a byproduct of impatience, lack of specific (and constant) flow of information and being burned in the past by other (now defunct) vendors....in addition to my slow build times.  I'd like to believe that, in the end, everyone will appreciate the quality and detail which was always in clear focus the whole time I work on reproducing these arcade parts.

David Adams
RAM Controls

Heh, I've had my opinion vented a long time ago. It wasn't very favorable for David. Even so, I think I stayed civil enough, and even more so David who stayed cool and polite.

Since David released the wide SW cockpit T-molding he can't do much wrong anymore in my eyes

Yes, call me inconistent or whatever, i don't care. It was the part of my most beloved machine that I thought I'd never see the day being able to replace it with brand new material that is exactly like the original.

Having read David's great notes on Ram Controls' site AND having been working on my SW yoke, I can imagine how much work is/was involved with recreating something as complicated as that. Through e-mail I discussed with David the poor production of the handles. The covers really poorly fit the base of the handles on the original I'm sure that David didn't want to releas it that way. That probably meant either correcting or making new molds for these handles.

Here's a couple of pics to show how bad the originals are (screws mounted !!!):






I'm positive that David refused to produce the yoke with handles like this and thus re-did them......

Anyway, the yoke-kits and T-molding show how much attention David has for detail and he's just not releasing stuff until he's 100% satisfied. I prefer that over the current habit of manufacturers of dumping half finished products on the market.

I'm trying to help David with a lot of details on the SW cockpit cab right now (materials on their way to you David ) so I must say a lot changed in a couple of years

Even so, I tend to agree with Friz that if I would have been David, I would have chosen not to re-open pre-orders and would have simply released the product to the old-time pre-orderers first and then to the rest of us. But that's just MHO.

[KonkeyKong]

I was one of those guys that signed up for the original yoke pre-order.  The excitement was overwhelming, I mean c'mon, a pristine Star Wars yoke?!?  Rather hard to come by these days.  When I ran into some financial straits and regretfully had to cancel my yoke order for a refund David was awesome!  No guilt trip, no hassels, nothing but kindness.  My refund hit my account in under 24 hours.  Scammer? Not from where I'm sitting.

[TheShanMan]

Dave, you're hearing from the vocal nay-sayers (and often it's the same people complaining at every opportunity), but don't get the impression that what you're hearing represents the group as a whole. I'm sure there are lots of people that view you as a major asset to the hobby (even if some projects take a long time), but don't often speak up about it. Keep up the good work!

[Havok]

Its good to see this project is finally going to be finished. Since I get the first one by sticking out on the original preorder, I can't wait!

[daywane]

Its good to see this project is finally going to be finished. Since I get the first one by sticking out on the original preorder, I can't wait!

OK Havok , now you are glowting!
That's going to cost you. I want a report on it as soon as you get it. NO SITTING on it for a year before you install it. 

[Havok]

Sure will. I already have a piece of MDF cut to install as another hot swap panel on my cab. I wrote in pencil Star Wars panel? on it some time ago.

[S0L]

If Havok gets his first, I want to be second

I've still got my Pre-order in - and still excited about it. As I've said a few times, I'm been more than happy to wait as I know the final Yoke will be worth it.

Having played on a completely knackered old cab this weekend (the first I've seen in 3 years!) I'm actually probably more excited than usual with the prospect of being able to both aim AND fire at the same time

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S0L
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[Chunce DeLeone]

I also am on the original pre-order train!!!!!!!!

[Havok]

Now I just need to get David to number these yokes - I want serial number 0001, since I pre-ordered before everyone else that kept the faith...

 

[Breaker]

I think we should check order dates Havok!!!! My pre-order is still in as well... 

[Havok]

Nice try, but I win - David told me so!

 

[Ummon]

Having played on a completely knackered old cab this weekend (the first I've seen in 3 years!)

Hell, I ain't seen one since.....

[S0L]

Having played on a completely knackered old cab this weekend (the first I've seen in 3 years!)

Hell, I ain't seen one since.....

Well if you're interested in an exercise of frustration... It's in the lobby of the Urbis building in Manchester, UK that is. They're running an exhibition called 'Videogame Nation' which chronicles the UK games industry.

In the lobby there is (if I remember right) - Space Invaders, some kind of multi-game setup (I spotted Galaga and PacMan on there), the aforementioned rather ill Star Wars cockpit, some other multi-game set up and a Galaxian machine.

Inside the exhibition (which'll cost you £3) they've got also got a Rainbow Islands machine, and something else, which I think was Contra (it was opposite the Gryzor conversion stuff that Ocean did for old 8-bit computers, i.e. C64, Spectrum and Amstrad) but which was out of action.

There's various other games on play, but they're emulated 8-bit and more recent games. Maybe not ones of all that much interest for you arcade folk.

The last time I saw a Star Wars Cockpit was on the beach front at Mablethorpe, I'd always go play that whenever I was nearby. Till the last time I went (about 3 years ago) where it had completely vanished, replaced with some penny falls machines

These days we don't have any really good Retro arcades anywhere up this end of the world, not without a good couple of hours drive

Hence me looking forward to getting a yoke so I can at least play it as it was meant!

Sorry for the off-topicness

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S0L
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