LCD and above to replace CRT monitors

[Ginsu Victim]

When is this going to Post Hell? It can't come soon enough.

[Hoopz]

Go read about Cliff Gardner and Philo Farnsworth.  I'm posting relative information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_Farnsworth

http://www.farnovision.com/chronicles/tfc-part03.html

 

[Cakemeister]

Quite simply, for me, they aren't the appropriate choice for displaying classic arcade games.

Word.

[FrizzleFried]

CRTs simply make better arcade monitors than LCD's... did we REALLY need multiple posts with multiple pages of responses to come tot his conclusion?  Does anyone think they can convince Tranq Hawkfan...er Genesim differently?  Really?   

[genesim]

Ginsu Victim(love that name by the way...best knives EVER),

With newer CRT's yes effects are minimized, but there is no such thing as a CRT monitor without color bleed.   The best makers of CRT will tell you that the nature of the display will always have some kind of color bleed and flicker.    The effect can only be "minimized" or "greatly reduced".

Clearly as I stated quite a few times, the way to get a proper emulation is to get the square pixels to a circle and to get real interpretation of the original scan lines.   Emulating dot pitch can help though, but I think interpolation is a better way to go.

xxxxxxxxx

Jeffo,

Keep telling yourself how relevant you are with your 7 LCD monitors...so that means you know more too right?   

You keeping me "honest" is a laugh coming from someone that is an outright liar.    You keep stating something over and over like the Blanka incident with no intent to tell the truth.  I wrote what happened and you like a Rainman ignore that.

Much like you don't know the edit situation.   

This is the best thing for a Jeffo hyena.  IGNORE.   

And for the last time, I don't tell people they are "WRONG", it is more like I do for my job.   I present evidence and go from there.    Not just telling them, but showing factual information.    Not just an opinion...or even usueless information that has nothing to do with the debate.

There is no "right" answer when it comes to someone's choce for a display.    And there is nothing wrong with seeking to improve.    It costs nothing to have a discussion.

Of course a religious cult is another thing all together.   To some people it just plain hurts.    Yeah send the post to hell.   Forget it happened.    Of course Jeffo can't do it.   My name will keep getting muttered like a senior citizen that has war memories.   Jeffo doensn't have his own indentity, he merely mirrors what others says and tries to seem like he knows at all what he talks about.    Go ahead with your bad self. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Ginsu Victim(love that name by the way...best knives EVER),

Your knowledge of knives is apparently unsurpassed by your knowledge of LCDs. One thing about being "Cheffo" is that you need to know your cutlery.

Keep telling yourself how relevant you are with your 7 LCD monitors...so that means you know more too right?   

Actually, my point was that I don't hate LCDs as you continually try to establish. I'm rather fond of LCDs.

But, yes, I do know more than you.

This is the best thing for a Jeffo hyena.  IGNORE.   

Oddly enough, one of us has people actively ignoring him ... and it isn't me.

And for the last time, I don't tell people they are "WRONG"

Do you deny a post in that other thread that you started with "WRONG. WRONG. WRONG." ? Did I misread ?

Jeffo doensn't have his own indentity, he merely mirrors what others says and tries to seem like he knows at all what he talks about.

You got me there ... I'm just another worthless button pusher ...

 

[CheffoJeffo]

I wrote what happened and you like a Rainman ignore that.

I'm pretty sure that this is not something that you want to say to me ...

[saint]

Cheffo showed admirable restraint in his last posting. Gene argue your points if you want but mellow the tone.

[genesim]

Restraint...is that what you call it?   I am done here with this post.   I have proven without a shadow of a doubt that a religious belief cannot be debated.

[Blanka]

As to more accurately simulating CRT effects on an LCD, I don't think there is a need to do it in MAME. I would love to see something done in hardware for folks using real boardsets, but I doubt that the market is there to support such an endeavour.

You mean like you use an ArcadeVGA board creating 15khz signals, and have a separate module do the upscaling for LCD?
No thanks. We have our 9800GT's doing nothing now, and with OpenCL at the horizon, it would be really easy to have mr. Ati or mrs. Nvidia take care of this.
Not a separate module that ships with VGA to DVI now, costs 200$ and is obsolete when the MPAA-DRM-Port is the new display connector standard.

What could be nice if there is a generic post-processing app that handles frames from all emulators and gives good scaling options to all apps at once. Kind of like Richard Bannister has done with "Emulation Enhancer" on the Mac.

[genesim]

I can't help it.

I just have to know one thing. 

Why is ROUND pixels such a bad idea to help make the image on a LCD more faithful?   Why is this such a "moronic" "idiotic" "stupid" idea?

Andy at Ultimarc already tackles the different refresh rates with his Arcade VGA version 2 card.

If the original was drawn in circles and LCD draws in squares I think it is a no brainer that an improvement will be seen.

With all the name calling by others, I have never got this fundamental issue.

Of course the other issues like arguing over whether a phosper is as important on an LCD monitor(which doesn't exist in the color mechanism) and CRT pubic hairs on the screen being somehow programmed for down to it being like a Divinci code is even funnier....hell it is even funnier that my love for (original version that I got from Korea in the 70's) Ginsu knives is challenged.

Some people will go to any length I guess.

To me the low resolution LCD like the one I put up on the WIKI article just may give a desirable result.    Low resolution with artificial circular pixels.    Maybe not the final step, but the point is if that is what you want perhaps this could be a route to go.

Exactly like CRT...uh no, but neither are any specialized CRT's.   It is all splitting hairs.    It just depends on where you compromise the most.

But through all this LCD's look like crap...it was never my intention to "REPLACE" CRT's...rather to deal with the fact that they are being forced replaced...and knowing that the LCD display could be improved with better software.   Of course some would like to just keep comparing apples and oranges as if they are one and the same.  Hence the controlled screenshots of Xiaou2 and the obvious bias as opposed to taking an objective look at not how it is now..but how it could be if some thinking was involved.

[BigTinz]

I'm using a 19in lcd monitor in my pony candy cab right now. Everything looks great so far although I'm sure some of that has to do with it only being a 19incher.

Esp.Galuda and newer cave stuff actually looks better on an lcd, personally.

The only problem I've had so far is trying to run a ps2 in the cab w/ vga.

[CheffoJeffo]

Restraint...is that what you call it? 

To be fair to you, perhaps didn't realize the gravity of the Rainman remark.

It is fairly common knowledge here that I have two children who suffer from Autism.

[CheffoJeffo]

As to more accurately simulating CRT effects on an LCD, I don't think there is a need to do it in MAME. I would love to see something done in hardware for folks using real boardsets, but I doubt that the market is there to support such an endeavour.

You mean like you use an ArcadeVGA board creating 15khz signals, and have a separate module do the upscaling for LCD?
No thanks. We have our 9800GT's doing nothing now, and with OpenCL at the horizon, it would be really easy to have mr. Ati or mrs. Nvidia take care of this.
Not a separate module that ships with VGA to DVI now, costs 200$ and is obsolete when the MPAA-DRM-Port is the new display connector standard.

What could be nice if there is a generic post-processing app that handles frames from all emulators and gives good scaling options to all apps at once. Kind of like Richard Bannister has done with "Emulation Enhancer" on the Mac.

Good points.

My thinking in the first place is that there are maybe a dozen folks who run MAME who aren't satisfied with the existing options. There are, however, many more people who are restoring with actual arcade hardware (e.g. not emulation) who are definitely not happy with LCDs as a solution but are facing an impending unavailability of new CRTs.

[genesim]

It is fairly common knowledge here that I have two children who suffer from Autism.

I will break silence to you to give you this much.   My utmost apology, and yes there is no way that I would deal such a low blow.

Lets squash the beef ok?   My fault percieved or not, you too had some harsh words.   It is all really stupid...there are so many more things in the world to worry about.

I think the biggest hurdle of admittedly many is the square pixel vs round.

The stair stepping and overall blocky mess is created with enlarging a display that is not meant to be magnified.    If one is going to start somewhere..then it would be at the least to get the pixel shape correct.   

[Ginsu Victim]

Serious question for you, genesim:
Who do you think would actually make an LCD with round pixels? Who is the idiot that wants to lose a LOT of money on such a ridiculous venture?

Don't read that as bias. From a business standpoint, it makes no sense for anyone to take on such an expensive niche item that most of the restoration crowd will balk at (because it still won't look right) and the general public has ZERO interest in.

[genesim]

Did you bother looking at my link?  It has already been done.  The patent was just obtained last year...another link you didn't look at.   Simple masking.   No different then the reverse masking that is on Trinotron monitors pointed out by Xiaou2.

Contrary to popular believe, round pixels have been a desire to more then just the arcade community.   There are photography nostalgia dinosaurs that prefer to see their displays close to a photographic print as well.   Hence...round dots as opposed to square.

If it can make the emulation of old games look better, then why is this a bad thing for THOUSANDS of programs?

Why in the hell would anyone want what is on Metal Slug in boxy letters rather then having a much better interpolation?

LOSING MONEY?   Why would this be at all.   It is just an alternative method to display pixels.    Why is this a "rediculous" venture.   LCD is going to be the standard for a long time to come you can believe that.   The crumbling economy will put a damper on any monitors dethroning the giant.

Where do you get that it wouldn't look any different?   And you know this how??   

Incidently what you really don't get is that it probably can be done with software as well.   I would like to know if it is out there, that is for sure.

[Ginsu Victim]

Did you bother looking at my link? 

Yes, the moment you posted it.

Contrary to popular believe, round pixels have been a desire to more then just the arcade community.   There are photography nostalgia dinosaurs that prefer to see their displays close to a photographic print as well.   Hence...round dots as opposed to square.

I never said it was ONLY aimed at us.

If it can make the emulation of old games look better, then why is this a bad thing for THOUSANDS of programs?

Better than standard LCD, maybe. Better than CRT? No.

LOSING MONEY?   Why would this be at all.   It is just an alternative method to display pixels.

Too niche for a company to gamble on.

Why is this a "rediculous" venture.

If you're going to quote me, at least spell it right.

LCD is going to be the standard for a long time to come you can believe that.

I'm a fan. I have a 19" LCD for my PC and I love my 32" 1080P LCD, but I don't play old games on it.

Where do you get that it wouldn't look any different?   And you know this how??

I never said it wouldn't look different. It just won't have the look the arcade crowd is after. No one is going to make an LCD display with a low enough resolution to satisfy us.

Incidently what you really don't get is that it probably can be done with software as well.

Where'd I ever say it couldn't? It could, but it will take a pretty high res monitor and a high spec system.

Now.....

Are you done with this thread or not? You said you were a few posts ago.

[CheffoJeffo]

For those who want to get "religion" ...

http://www.geek.com/articles/games/why-lcds-and-plasmas-are-worse-for-retro-gaming-than-crts-20090421/

http://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660

All the information, fewer insults.

[genesim]

Wow even down to making fun of my typo?

Here let me make you feel better.  CRT's are better then LCD.   CRT are the only way to go to get the true authentic arcade feel...look...sexual satsifaction.   Believe that all you want.

Now getting back to what my main purpose of the whole thread is about...LCD will be the replacement for CRT's if you want to get a new display.

So you admit freely that it could look better then current LCD configuration.  GOOD.  Great, outstanding.

Now on to the second tier of the discussion(if you want to call it that since you are incapable of speaking without insulting me).

The resolution doesn't have to be lowered if scaled correctly.   Multiple pixel representation if you will.   

I'm a fan. I have a 19" LCD for my PC and I love my 32" 1080P LCD, but I don't play old games on it.

And that is you, that is how you feel.   SO WHAT.   Glad to hear it.   Glad you like what you like, now quit telling me what monitor I should like.

Where'd I ever say it couldn't? It could, but it will take a pretty high res monitor and a high spec system.

First you say no round pixels are going to be made(but actually they are with the mask), now you give in to the software too.   So the end result is round pixels displayed.    Then you agree that it would look better.   

So now you say that there is Zero interest in it...uh keep telling yourself that.

Arcade gaming can be had just fine with a LCD monitor and many people use it..including arcades.    There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve how original games look on it.   

Are you done with this thread or not? You said you were a few posts ago.

Whats it to you?   So not only are you going to imply what I should like, but you are going to imply that I shouldn't post too?   Bud, I will post as long as I am allowed or as long as I care.   You don't like it...TOUGH.    Go somewhere esle.   Noone forced you to respond, and seeing that you added nothing but agreeing with me, it was pretty futile anyway.

It is all opinions anyway.   CRT monitors I think are crap.   While they may give a better representation of crappy code/graphics it still doesn't change the fact that there are many many shortcomings.   Who are you to say that your OPINION is any better then mine, or hell any more informed. 

A million people can say something looks better and a million more can say but it still looks like CRAP.   Old isn't always better and in this case the supposed benefits IMHO are overshadowed by the problems that I have talked about many times over.    Hell the glare alone is enough to make me want to quit on it.   Call it stupid, call it ignorant...but seeing everything but the actual display is annoying as hell.   Colors are meant to be seen not masked with sunlight....and yes I like to play more then in pitch black.

What is so comical to me is a bunch of posters aren't even listening to the discussion of how to make it better, you cry about cost and the like when it has nothing to do with it.   The question is HOW...that is the beginning...if it even goes anywhere.    Not just for LCD but for tons of future displays.   Tackling these problems..even just on paper can give insight to future innovations.

Not just, I am an idiot because I don't bow down to CRT displays only.   Yet you say this while you have your pathetic non original CRT's that aren't showing it 100% either from your non original PCB's(if you play more then 5 games) from your non original joysticks(again if you enjoy more then 5 games) with your non original cabinets(if you play more then 5 games...perhaps 10 for the people that like to collect in their own homes).   

[CheffoJeffo]

Who are you to say that your OPINION is any better then mine, or hell any more informed. 

Let me be the first ... his opinion is better and more informed than yours.

I'm CheffoJeffo, I don't have my own identity and I approve this message.

 

[genesim]

Cheffo,

Thanks for the really cool link.   You know when I look at each picture I say to myself...WHO GIVES A edit by saint. Don't work around the autocensor. Rule #2 (http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html).

I respect the splitting hairs, but at the same time I still prefer Call Of Duty AND Pacman.    I don't want to run from room to room or throw out a display on the fly.   I like my Tron stick with trackball for FPS..but I also like the rest.

I look at the blocks and say....damn, but it still looks great.     Most people are going to feel the same way...if they even care to play the old games.   Most people that gamed in the old days are still going to go..man thats pretty cool.    I laugh ---my bottom--- off when I say the side by sides.   Ooooh...that looks just so terrible.  

And Cheffo...that is your opinion, and yes I do consider the source.    It still doesn't mean diddly.  His opinion cannot be more informed about MY OPINION.   Only I am the most informed on MY OPINION.   We feeling it yet?

[CheffoJeffo]

Yet you say this while you have your pathetic non original CRT's that aren't showing it 100% either from your non original PCB's(if you play more then 5 games) from your non original joysticks(again if you enjoy more then 5 games) with your non original cabinets(if you play more then 5 games...perhaps 10 for the people that like to collect in their own homes).   

[CheffoJeffo]

Thanks for the really cool link.   You know when I look at each picture I say to myself...WHO GIVES A edit by saint. Don't work around the autocensor. Rule #2 (http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html).

Apparently GinsuVictim does ... and apparently he's not alone ...

Sorry, I have to run and play a game of Robotron on my pathetic CRT in my original cabinet with my original joysticks.

 

EDIT: Rule 2 ... just saying ...

[genesim]

Oh wow..he is not alone.   Yeah lots of people run in packs.   Nazis, KKK...etc.   To simply have a bunch of people that agree, does not make it right.   Matter of fact, in some cases like listed it can make them very very wrong.

I have a feeling when another breakthrough like Andy's card for LCD comes this way you won't be gaffawing so bad, matter of fact you won't even have the guts to admit that you were wrong.

Higher resolution is not a bad thing when softwared correctly...it is a very very good thing.  CRT' need to be put to rest, and thank goodness it is happening faster all the time.

[Ginsu Victim]

Man....are you done yet? The amount of crap you've got wrong about what I've said and how I've been toward you....wow.

saint....you really thought this thread was worth keeping?

Hi....I'm whitey....and I apologize.

[ChadTower]

Nazis, KKK...etc. 

DING DONG THE THREAD IS DEAD, NOW GO HOME AND DO SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE. 


 

[Ginsu Victim]

Nazis, KKK...etc.

Wow......just.....wow.

You went THERE?

REALLY?

Holy crap, you're more bat ---Cleveland steamer--- insane than anyone realized.

Thanks for confirming it.

Time to lock this thread or toss it into Post Hell.

[genesim]

No the thread went dead the moment I was personally attacked from the 3rd or so post in.

Now even after a supposed ammends there is more personal attacking.

"People disagree with you, so they must be right" nah nah nah.  

Incidently I am home.   And no I wasn't calling anyone here Nazi or KKK...but there does seem to be an angry mob.

All because I don't hug CRT's.   Of course the same was true when I defended Mortal Kombat over Street Fighter II and the same was true about my modification on the Tron joystick when I made a first try.  

If I discussed Ginsu knives the same thing would happen.   Unless you feel exactly as everyone else does and be a complete android in that way, then I will not get along.

But I have a little experiment.   New genesim.   Watch and learn.  

So for now, I really am sorry for saying that LCD is better then CRT in my opinion.   I have changed my mind.   They are the only display that should be around.   It is CRT from here on out.   I got my Multisync monitor from Wells Gardener on order...unless there is another one that I should have..but I have to get certain people to agree.   We don't think for ourselves here.   We must go with what the mob thinks.  

[Ginsu Victim]

Funny, this mob mentality crap you speak of, when I myself am working on putting a 20" LCD in my MAME cab soon. Not that I'm thrilled with the idea, but it fits my setup best.

[genesim]

OH NO!   What are you doing!!

You got to be a complete IDIOT for even thinking of that!!   What is wrong with you!!   What are you a MORON???!!?!?!?!?!?

Everyone knows that you have to have a CRT or you are a complete disgrace to the M.O.B.   Members Of Build your own arcade....against all LCD's!!!

And above all, don't you dare think of improving that display one bit!!   I wish I had a bat right now to completely destroy that thing....where is my Cheffo???

[Ginsu Victim]

[genesim]

Where where???  LETS GET HIM!    I think I saw him with an LCD in his hands!!!

If not then he is trying to make a "LCD look more like a CRT"....he must be devoid of "a cogent posting from that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal".

Don't stop till he is dead!!   Heil CRT!

Message brought to you by the M.O.B.!

[Ginsu Victim]

Heil CRT!

Again with the nazis....

[genesim]

No, that is from the CRT M.O.B.   Where have you been?   Nazi's do not tolerate outside thought while persecuting jews.     

[Hoopz]

Where where???  LETS GET HIM!    I think I saw him with an LCD in his hands!!!

If not then he is trying to make a "LCD look more like a CRT"....he must be devoid of "a cogent posting from that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal".

Don't stop till he is dead!!   Heil CRT!

Message brought to you by the M.O.B.!

Please don't quote me out of context.  I was merely pointing out that I was having trouble following your various points and was asking for clarification.  

Anyone for a couple of screenshots of the thread before it goes to PH?

[genesim]

For once, I'm not trying to be an ass towards you yet.     I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

Right.  Sorry here is the whole quote.   You were very constructive.

You prefaced it...then proceeded to act in kind.

[Hoopz]

Once again, you quoted it out of context.  The smaller font "yet" was a joke hence the smiley, horned devil.

Take everything as a personal attack if you want but I was trying to get clarification on something.  You failed to answer it though so don't blame me for not following what you want from the software/hardware.

After three of these threads, I still fail to understand your point.  Would you, please, list them (succinctly) so everyone understands what you are posting about?

Personally, I think you've tried to say the following:

1. LCDs are superior to CRT displays
2. Games look/play/____ better on LCDs
3. Programmers did _____ because of ______ and CRT displays

For once, I'm not trying to be an ass towards you yet.     I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

[genesim]

Oh wow that cleard that up completely.

So let me get this straight.   

I think a LCD's are superior to CRT so...I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

I think Games look play better on LCD's..I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

I think Programmers didn't account for each and everything nuance of a CRT monitor so..I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

Yes it was a personal attack and you can try to dress it up anyway you like.   You have done it in the past, and this is just one more example.   If someone doesn't think like you then they must be wrong.   Thye must be devoid of a "single thought working towards a particular goal".

Your "joke" wasn't appreciated.   Did I seem like I did?   If I would have told you I was offended would you have took it back...hell no.   You would do like you do now, blame me for not taking it the supposed right way instead of recognizing it for what it was.   A snide remark that was completely uncalled for.

If you had any guts you would admit your obvious crap behavior and issue the apology.   At least I am man enough to do it.   Of course certain people don't even give me an aknowledgement when I do reach out a hand.   Even more spineless behavior.

[northerngames]

 I am sure if crt's went out of production some rich fella would eventually say hey lets bring these back and start making these monitors again since were the only one's doing it we could run a monopoly.
 
 I believe if I was the one & only company making/selling them the company would do rather well perhaps even better then any others becuase they are all competing over price's while were running the one and only monopoly for crts.

 I dont think they will ever go out of production for good becuase they still have a value and use even today and years to come.

 They may be dying out now but I am sure there will be at least one company out there smart enough to get very rich keeping them around becuase there not obsolete and still have a use.