Randy T.: Can an LED-Wiz be used to drive pinball solenoids ???

[mark shaker]

I'm guessing that with the addition of an external power supply and relays or transistors, the LED-Wiz can drive pinball solenoids. 

I would be grateful for any advice.

   - Mark

[KevSteele]

I'm guessing that with the addition of an external power supply and relays or transistors, the LED-Wiz can drive pinball solenoids. 

I would be grateful for any advice.

   - Mark

Definitely need some relays, as solenoids need about 50v to trigger. Sounds like you've got something interesting in mind!

[mark shaker]

Definitely need some relays, as solenoids need about 50v to trigger. Sounds like you've got something interesting in mind!

I'm just *thinking* about building my own pinball machine.

Are you sure that transistors won't do the job?

My simplistic understanding is that a transistor does the same job as a relay, but without moving parts.

I have several solid state pins, they don't have any relays, but they have some hella-big transistors.

   - Mark

[KevSteele]

Definitely need some relays, as solenoids need about 50v to trigger. Sounds like you've got something interesting in mind!

I'm just *thinking* about building my own pinball machine.

Are you sure that transistors won't do the job?

My simplistic understanding is that a transistor does the same job as a relay, but without moving parts.

I have several solid state pins, they don't have any relays, but they have some hella-big transistors.

   - Mark

The hella-big things you see are probably capacitors. That, or bridge rectifiers. The transistors on a power-driver board in a pin are actually pretty small...

I think you'd need to isolate the current from the solenoids from the LED-Wiz, since the solenoids would probably be using 50v AC and the LED-Wiz is most likely 12v DC. You could do it with some dedicated circuits, but it wouldn't be simple.

I'm not an expert on electronics, but I'd lean toward the theory that it's more trouble than it's worth unless you're knowledgeable in the field.

[whammoed]

If the transistor is rated for the load, you can use one.  Look here:
http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp#overview
He's using an IPAC but same idea as the led wiz.

Using a relay may offer a little more protection for your led wiz in case of a transistor failing.  Not sure if one would perform better than the other or if it matters.  I believe a transistor would be able to fire a little faster than a relay since a relay is mechanical (of course there are solid state relays too).

[mark shaker]

The hella-big things you see are probably capacitors. That, or bridge rectifiers. The transistors on a power-driver board in a pin are actually pretty small...

I think you'd need to isolate the current from the solenoids from the LED-Wiz, since the solenoids would probably be using 50v AC and the LED-Wiz is most likely 12v DC. You could do it with some dedicated circuits, but it wouldn't be simple.

I'm not an expert on electronics, but I'd lean toward the theory that it's more trouble than it's worth unless you're knowledgeable in the field.

As you can tell, I also don't have an electronics background, which is why I'm searching for off the shelf solutions.

I gabbed my Monster Bash manual and checked out the "High Power Solenoid Circuit" diagram, it has about 2 dozen components (per solenoid), but it is transistor based.  

As long as I can find a reliable (and not too expensive) way for the low current of the LED-Wiz to control the high current of a solenoid, I'll be happy.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

If the transistor is rated for the load, you can use one.  Look here:
http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp#overview
He's using an IPAC but same idea as the led wiz.

Using a relay may offer a little more protection for your led wiz in case of a transistor failing.  Not sure if one would perform better than the other or if it matters.  I believe a transistor would be able to fire a little faster than a relay since a relay is mechanical (of course there are solid state relays too).

Thank you!

If I go forward with the project, I may have to run a couple tests to see if relays or this control circuit work best. 

   - Mark

[whammoed]

If the transistor is rated for the load, you can use one.  Look here:
http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp#overview
He's using an IPAC but same idea as the led wiz.

Using a relay may offer a little more protection for your led wiz in case of a transistor failing.  Not sure if one would perform better than the other or if it matters.  I believe a transistor would be able to fire a little faster than a relay since a relay is mechanical (of course there are solid state relays too).

Thank you!

If I go forward with the project, I may have to run a couple tests to see if relays or this control circuit work best. 

   - Mark

If you want an easy way to test out relays I have this:
http://www.nicemite.com/PowermiteDD/PowermiteDD.htm
Hooks right up to your pc power supply.  You would want the "LO" version for the LED wiz.

[mark shaker]

If you want an easy way to test out relays I have this:
http://www.nicemite.com/PowermiteDD/PowermiteDD.htm
Hooks right up to your pc power supply.  You would want the "LO" version for the LED wiz.

Cool.

Could it actually replace the relays? In your video, your using low voltage from your power supply, to control high voltage to the lamp.

Would the output from an LED-Wiz be sufficient to control the Powermite DD?

Could the Powermite DD handle the load of driving flipper solenoids?

Could it keep it up for a few hundred thousand cycles?

   - Mark

[whammoed]

If you want an easy way to test out relays I have this:
http://www.nicemite.com/PowermiteDD/PowermiteDD.htm
Hooks right up to your pc power supply.  You would want the "LO" version for the LED wiz.

Cool.

Could it actually replace the relays? In your video, your using low voltage from your power supply, to control high voltage to the lamp.

Would the output from an LED-Wiz be sufficient to control the Powermite DD?

Could the Powermite DD handle the load of driving flipper solenoids?

Could it keep it up for a few hundred thousand cycles?

   - Mark

It uses relays, so I'm not sure what you mean by "replace the relays".
It can easily handle a solenoid in terms of current.  The relays are rated at 12 amps.  However, The max contact voltage on the ones I stock are 28 volts DC and 240 AC.  So keep that in mind,  I think some pinball coils used 50VDC so a different relay would be needed.  I can order relays rated up to 125VDC but the cost would be a few bucks more, so you would need to let me know.
You can expect them to last anywhere from 100,000 (full load) to 10 million cycles (no load).  So for a pinball solenoid I would guess around a million cycles?
The LED-Wiz "sinks" current and should work fine with the "LO" version.
***I'm also pretty sure the board could be outfitted with transistors instead of relays.  It would require the signal wire from the LED Wiz to go in a different location but should work.  The holes for the relays are large enough and the leads on the transistors are long enough to reach the holes.

[Xiaou2]

 Would be great to have an  "all-in-one"  PCB solution.

 I believe a lot of BYOAC'ers would eventually take on a BYOP project.

 We probably would create tables that trump sterns latest... and even
give Williams machines a run for their money. 

 Would be popular in the Pinball groups as well.  Either as individuals, or
from sales from builders who will make and sell custom machines.


 I would love to help in the design of such a beast.  I have some great software ideas...
so even the non-programmer could create incredible tables in a flash...


 Show of hands:   How many people would like to BYOP?

[whammoed]

Would be great to have an  "all-in-one"  PCB solution.
 I believe a lot of BYOAC'ers would eventually take on a BYOP project.
 We probably would create tables that trump sterns latest... and even
give Williams machines a run for their money. 
 Would be popular in the Pinball groups as well.  Either as individuals, or
from sales from builders who will make and sell custom machines.
 I would love to help in the design of such a beast.  I have some great software ideas...
so even the non-programmer could create incredible tables in a flash...
 Show of hands:   How many people would like to BYOP?

Something like this?:
http://acgamesystems.com/index.html
Just found it and haven't seen it mentioned before.  A little pricey if you are just looking to play around, but if you are serious about actually building a full machine the price seems really low for what you are getting.

[Xiaou2]

 Actually, thats pretty cheap.

 However,  if Im reading it correctly... its only for Pinmame use.   Which means
that you couldnt really easily develop your own tables with it.

 (unless you knew how to program in Williams assembly code)

 
 Its also poorly documented for the non-electronics  mechanic/builder.

 It does not include a software program to Easily develop your own table.

 It does not have any 'display' output whatsoever.

 
 Id be happy with PC monitor output,  as one could use a pc monitor for displaying
animations, short movie clips, having mini-video games, and much more.   However, there probably should be an official add-on for true pinball display output as well.

 As for sound... well, windows is capable of anything you can record really.   From
Mp3 soundtracks... to short sound fx clips.   There wouldnt be any real hardware
limitations... which is great 

 The system should also be set up to be able to use LEDs as well as traditional lamps.



 The software should be Drag-n-drop  easy.   Basically creating point-loops by drawing
lines from one switch to the next on the virtual table you created.   Then assigning
sounds, points and triggering effects by assigning them appropriately.

 No complex scripting needed.   But, could be used for people who really want super
complexity that is hard to configure with drag-n-drop methods.


 **  Edit

 It also uses  Parallel port.   Such a port will probably vanish in the near future.

 *** Edit 2

 I already see new motherbaords that do not have any Parallel ports

[mrjah]

About 10 years ago, I participated in building a pinball machine from scratch as an engineering school project.  I wasn't involved in the initial design, but rather came into the project after the big decisions had already been made (often badly!).

http://www.ece.umd.edu/pinball/intro.html

The electronics and electrical systems were actually really well designed.  But the folks leading the project were management neophytes and treated the mechanical designers and their needs like second-class considerations, making it impossible to design a table that either looked good or played well.  Lesson learned.

Anyway, at the end of the day it was a surprisingly difficult project.  I can't imagine designing and building the thing from scratch, solo, without going crazy... unless a LOT of the work had been pre-engineered and made buyable.


Edit: Forgot to mention that I am VERY interested in learning more about exactly what types of mechanical actuators you can control with a LED-Wiz.  I have some completely non-arcade applications for which it would be very useful.

[solderguy1]

Why not just copy the circuit an actual pinball machine uses?  My Bally Mr and Mrs Pacman has plain vanilla transistor logic driving a TIP102 darlington transistor that can handle the high solenoid voltages.  There are also a few components added for slow turn-off to help fight the inductive kickback.
I'm sure a schematic is available somewhere on the web.

[CheffoJeffo]

Would be great to have an  "all-in-one"  PCB solution.

May not be that far off ...

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=85013.msg891290#msg891290

The original article didn't provide much in the way of details with respect to programming or design, but it would be a good place to start.

[headkaze]

I'm wondering if a U-HID would be well suited for a pinball machine. If your writing custom software it would be easy to interface with the U-HID as the drivers appear as standard keyboard and joystick. It also includes an LED controller and analog inputs so should be quite versitile. There is also a dll I've written that allows you to control the LED's easily through software.

[yugffuts]

Here's some people to keep an eye on...

http://www.kendallvanpool.com/Caploungepinball/progress.htm

http://www.users.on.net/~spaners/Coconut%20Island/index.html

Both are working on their own pins.  What is needed is a solution that can be bought, so every person doesn't have to create their own curcuit boards (which is probably beyond most people).  Get it to the point where you plug it into your PC, provide an external power supply (for solenoids, toys, etc), and wire it up and go.  Obviously, you would need to keep track of each solenoid and handle the sounds/animation/points through software.  The biggest problem that will keep most BYOP'ers from matching Bally/Williams will be the creation of ramps/toys, I would imagine. 

Some of the playfield restoration guys have already said they would be willing to CNC a playfield and/or screen the PF/plastic images if they were provided (obviously at a cost).  I think the interest is there, and a lot of the difficult areas can be accounted for...we just need a reasonably priced solenoid/lamp driver board. 

Of course, the project itself would be quite expensive just for parts alone...

[mark shaker]

Something like this?:
http://acgamesystems.com/index.html

Wow. This could be it. I've written A.C. and asked the following questions. I'll let you know what I hear back:

Can the PC to Pinball Interface be controlled from Windows XP?
(Unlike older versions of Windows, XP does not allow programs to access the Parallel Port directly.)

Can the PC to Pinball Interface be used with a USB to Parallel Port adapter?
(Apparently USB to Parallel Port adapter don’t provide complete Parallel Port functionality.)

Does the PC to Pinball Interface have to power do drive flipper coils?

   - Mark

[yugffuts]

The pinmame-HW guys fell off the map a few years ago, I thought.  Be interested to see if you get a response.

[mark shaker]

Actually, thats pretty cheap.

 However,  if Im reading it correctly... its only for Pinmame use.   Which means
that you couldnt really easily develop your own tables with it.

 (unless you knew how to program in Williams assembly code)

 
 Its also poorly documented for the non-electronics  mechanic/builder.

 It does not include a software program to Easily develop your own table.

 It does not have any 'display' output whatsoever.

 
 Id be happy with PC monitor output,  as one could use a pc monitor for displaying
animations, short movie clips, having mini-video games, and much more.   However, there probably should be an official add-on for true pinball display output as well.

 As for sound... well, windows is capable of anything you can record really.   From
Mp3 soundtracks... to short sound fx clips.   There wouldnt be any real hardware
limitations... which is great 

 The system should also be set up to be able to use LEDs as well as traditional lamps.



 The software should be Drag-n-drop  easy.   Basically creating point-loops by drawing
lines from one switch to the next on the virtual table you created.   Then assigning
sounds, points and triggering effects by assigning them appropriately.

 No complex scripting needed.   But, could be used for people who really want super
complexity that is hard to configure with drag-n-drop methods.


 **  Edit

 It also uses  Parallel port.   Such a port will probably vanish in the near future.

 *** Edit 2

 I already see new motherbaords that do not have any Parallel ports

Yeah the Parallel Port is the biggest issue, but apparently all you have to do to fire a solenoid is send a signal to a specific pin on the parallel port. As the communication is not bidirectional, I'm hoping that: 1) A C++ program running under Windows XP can do that. 2) It will work with a USB to Parallel Port adapter.

Here is the plan, as of this second:

Use a couple I-Pacs for switch input.

Use a couple Led-Wizs for lighting control.  Perhaps with a couple PowermiteDDs for higher power drain items like General Illumination strings.

Use a AC game System's PC to Pinball Interface to control Solenoids.
(Plan B: Use an Led-Wiz + a bunch of  PowermiteDDs.)

Use an LCD for scoring.

Write the software in C++ or C#.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

I'm wondering if a U-HID would be well suited for a pinball machine. If your writing custom software it would be easy to interface with the U-HID as the drivers appear as standard keyboard and joystick. It also includes an LED controller and analog inputs so should be quite versitile. There is also a dll I've written that allows you to control the LED's easily through software.

Another cool device. It looks like it could take the place of both the I-Pacs and Led-Wizs.

One feature I like is that you can assign a distinct ID to each board at any time. For the Led-Wiz, you have to assign the ID when you order the board.  (The ID prevents the boards from being confused whenever you move them between USB ports. ) Being able to change the ID makes it easier to have a few spares laying around.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

The pinmame-HW guys fell off the map a few years ago, I thought.  Be interested to see if you get a response.

The web site said copyright 2008, so I'm hopeful.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

Why not just copy the circuit an actual pinball machine uses?  My Bally Mr and Mrs Pacman has plain vanilla transistor logic driving a TIP102 darlington transistor that can handle the high solenoid voltages.  There are also a few components added for slow turn-off to help fight the inductive kickback.
I'm sure a schematic is available somewhere on the web.

The schematic is in pretty much all the pinball manuals.

I just didn't want to deal with the cost of a small circuit board run or breadboarding 20 copies of the circuit.

Hopefully the PC to Pinball Interface will solve all my problems.

   - Mark

[mark shaker]

About 10 years ago, I participated in building a pinball machine from scratch as an engineering school project. 

{snip}

Anyway, at the end of the day it was a surprisingly difficult project.  I can't imagine designing and building the thing from scratch, solo, without going crazy... unless a LOT of the work had been pre-engineered and made buyable.

It is a TON of work. I will be looking for a "project" machine, so that at least I don't have to build the cabinet.

About 18 months ago, I purchased a "fully restored" Addams Family from E-bay. I had to put another ^%$%^$@@ $1500 into restoring the "fully restored" machine. Just replacing the playfield with a repro took 60 hours.

   - Mark

[AndyWarne]

I'm wondering if a U-HID would be well suited for a pinball machine. If your writing custom software it would be easy to interface with the U-HID as the drivers appear as standard keyboard and joystick. It also includes an LED controller and analog inputs so should be quite versitile. There is also a dll I've written that allows you to control the LED's easily through software.

This would work although the solenoids would need additional darlington drivers.
Many people have used our Pac-Drive boards for pinball drivers.
Note if you use a LED controller which uses modulation to vary brighness you need to ensure the modulation can be turned off and a solid on or off sent to the solenoid.
Andy

[HaRuMaN]

...interesting...

[mrjah]

After reading through this thread a couple of times, I would like very much to learn about simple ways to drive electromechanical actuators (solenoid or smaller) by computer control.  The programming options, the interface hardware, and the variety of actuators available.

Are there any good general primers out there for one or more of those aspects of the task?  Seems like it would be pretty simple after a quick learning curve.

[yugffuts]

"Are there any good general primers out there for one or more of those aspects of the task?  Seems like it would be pretty simple after a quick learning curve."

Well, that's pretty much the problem. 

If someone like Randy or Andy, who have a history of putting out specialized quality products, put out a pinball driver board which handled the basic I/O for lamps, switches, and solenoid driving, with a simple write up for what's required (power supply, ports, etc), and some sample code, the whole BYOP market would begin to evolve.  It's this first step that needs to be taken and offered for sale.  Thus far, the people that have taken this step have not made the information available, so every BYOP project requires the fabrication of custom hardware.

[yugffuts]

Oh, and don't take that like I'm telling Andy and/or Randy what to do.  I just think that a product like this coming from an actual business with a history would be better than just an individual doing the same.  GGG & Ultimarc have already displayed the ability to create quality parts and keep them in stock, whereas individual projects have a tendency to fade away.

[mark shaker]

This would work although the solenoids would need additional darlington drivers.
Many people have used our Pac-Drive boards for pinball drivers.
Note if you use a LED controller which uses modulation to vary brighness you need to ensure the modulation can be turned off and a solid on or off sent to the solenoid.
Andy

Ultimarc products are terrific. I'm using about a dozen total I-Pacs and Opti-Pacs.

Thinking of controllable LEDs + solenoids: The Pac-Drive can handle a total of 64 (16 outputs x 4 boards) . The Led-Wiz can handle a total of 512 (32 outputs X 16 boards).  The U-HID can support 400 (50 outputs x 8 boards).

Based on that, assuming that the modulation can be turned off, I'd have to go with the Led-Wiz or U-HID.

BTW: The A.C. Game Systems PC to Pinball Interface also handles lighting. But he has not yet replied to my e-mail questions.

Another BTW: Randy T.: Where are you?

   - Mark

[Hoopz]

Ultimarc products are terrific. I'm using about a dozen total I-Pacs and Opti-Pacs.
   - Mark

You need to post a picture of THAT control panel!!!! 

[mark shaker]

Ultimarc products are terrific. I'm using about a dozen total I-Pacs and Opti-Pacs.
   - Mark

You need to post a picture of THAT control panel!!!! 

I do have one Cab that uses:
   3 - Ultimarc I-Pacs
   2 - Ultimarc Opti-Pacs
   4 - AKI Analog Kontrol Interfaces
   1 - Druin's LS30 Rotary Interface

Suffer! 

[Hoopz]

Very nice.  Care to share all the details or do you have a thread with info about it?

 

[mark shaker]

Very nice.  Care to share all the details or do you have a thread with info about it?

 

Check out Sybil at: http://www.marksarcade.com/

Most of the interfaces are mentioned on the Control Panel's page, but I forgot to mention the I-Pac in the Admin Panel and the AKI for the pedals.

   - Mark

[AndyWarne]

If someone like Randy or Andy, who have a history of putting out specialized quality products, put out a pinball driver board which handled the basic I/O for lamps, switches, and solenoid driving, with a simple write up for what's required (power supply, ports, etc), and some sample code, the whole BYOP market would begin to evolve.  It's this first step that needs to be taken and offered for sale.  Thus far, the people that have taken this step have not made the information available, so every BYOP project requires the fabrication of custom hardware.

The problem with output drivers is they need to be supported by whatever software is being used to generate the output.  I have posted on a couple of pinball message boards about the Pac-Drive and mentioned the availability of the API code which can be used by developers to drive it. But then its up to the developers to implement this code.
I am not sure if this has been done in any pinball program, but if and when it is, I will add a pinball section on the product page.
It might be that there have been developments I am not aware of, so if so, drop me a line.
Andy

[shmokes]

Check out Sybil at: http://www.marksarcade.com/

How do you get more than three panels to fit on your rotating mechanism?  Did you ever take any side-shots (pictures, I mean) of your panels before installing them in the cab.  When I look at your cab from in front it doesn't look like it would be possible to have four panels hiding inside.

[dmworking247]

If someone like Randy or Andy, who have a history of putting out specialized quality products, put out a pinball driver board which handled the basic I/O for lamps, switches, and solenoid driving, with a simple write up for what's required (power supply, ports, etc), and some sample code, the whole BYOP market would begin to evolve.  It's this first step that needs to be taken and offered for sale.  Thus far, the people that have taken this step have not made the information available, so every BYOP project requires the fabrication of custom hardware.

I agree 100%.

I've quietly been watching this thread as I've wanted to embark upon a BYO-pinball project for over a year now. I've got the theme, the layout, the rules etc all designed... but the number 1 issue preventing me from starting this project (which I'm sure will take 1-2 years) is an output controller.

There are a couple of custom jobs around the internet, and I'm sure those with high degrees of electronic knowledge could work something out... but I'm after an 'off the shelf' device that can be activated by PC, and activate a genuine pinball part, preferably without the need for expensive switching relays on every component.

[RandyT]

The LED-Wiz drivers support up to 50v DC at 500ma per output.  Modulation can be turned off, but depends upon the software to support it.  An intensity setting of 49 will do this, so this setting cannot be capped.  I think MikeQ's DLL originally capped this value at 48, but he opened it up in a later release.

I think the big thing that folks need to think about with the BYOPB projects are latency.  I'm a pretty avid pinball fan, and I think I can safely say that any latency at all would be disturbing to me while playing.  So all of this needs to be considered while designing the machine and deciding on how to approach the playfield mechanics.  Software control of lights, novelty items, kick holes and other non-timing crucial items is absolutely fine, but  actuation of things like flippers and bumpers should be tied directly to the circuitry that senses contact with the ball / button presses.

You can still use inputs to monitor what is happening at the device (such as how long a flipper is being held, and cutting the power down after a second or two to prevent burning out the coil, etc.) but you probably wouldn't want the button to have to go through the software interface before engaging the solenoid for the flipper.  This is, of course, theory, but this is how the big boys design(ed)  their machines, even with specialized control hardware that should theoretically have less latency than the PC / USB software approach.

RandyT

[mark shaker]

The LED-Wiz drivers support up to 50v DC at 500ma per output.  Modulation can be turned off, but depends upon the software to support it.  An intensity setting of 49 will do this, so this setting cannot be capped.  I think MikeQ's DLL originally capped this value at 48, but he opened it up in a later release.

I think the big thing that folks need to think about with the BYOPB projects are latency.  I'm a pretty avid pinball fan, and I think I can safely say that any latency at all would be disturbing to me while playing.  So all of this needs to be considered while designing the machine and deciding on how to approach the playfield mechanics.  Software control of lights, novelty items, kick holes and other non-timing crucial items is absolutely fine, but  actuation of things like flippers and bumpers should be tied directly to the circuitry that senses contact with the ball / button presses.

You can still use inputs to monitor what is happening at the device (such as how long a flipper is being held, and cutting the power down after a second or two to prevent burning out the coil, etc.) but you probably wouldn't want the button to have to go through the software interface before engaging the solenoid for the flipper.  This is, of course, theory, but this is how the big boys design(ed)  their machines, even with specialized control hardware that should theoretically have less latency than the PC / USB software approach.

RandyT

Randy,

Thank you for the info on the LED-Wiz and the reminder about latency.

Another thing to keep in mind is that flipper coils are 2-in-1. A timed powerful coil to move the flipper and a much less powerful hold coil to keep the flipper in the up position as long as the switch is held. (The powerful coil would burn-out, if it remains on as long as the switch is held.)

   - Mark