Did Hyperspin borrow from the Ultracade FE of Arcade Classics by Joshua Tech?

[retrometro]

Just so I don't get flamed because I haven't ready enough FAQ's or WIKI's on the matter, my truth-in-lending statement is that I googled and looked for only about 10-15 minutes but could find no answer so this is why I'm posting...

Most of us including me have been very impressed by Hyperspin's look and feel.  How this new FE will play out in the coming years compared to the likes of mala, mamewah, maximus arcade, etc remains to be seen.  One thing is for sure, it looks different than what most of us have be used to.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQSIDJvUCG4[/youtube]

When I was down at the local arcade, I noticed that they had several of the mutli-game cabinets.  It's not unusual to see them these days.  What I was surprised to see though was that the FE for one of them looked identical to Hyperspin.      Furthermore, the company taking credit is a company called Joshua Technology Inc.  The cabinet was called Arcade Classics.  During the quick 10-15 minutes of googling, it turns out that Joshua Technology is also responsible for the front end that Ultracade includes in some of their home cabs like the Arcade Legends system.

http://www.chicago-gaming.com/Brochures/Arcade_Legends_Manual_Rev3c.pdf

What was more surprising is that the manual above is dated 2005.  So (again, I don't know the full history of Hyperspin) are the folks responsible for Hyperspin the same folks behind Joshua Technology, Ultracade, or Chicago Gaming?  If not, then I think these observations are interesting because someone may be borrowing from someone's look and feel here.

Here are some photos of Ultracade's home cab "Arcade Legends" front end and phone cam pics of the "Arcade Classics" front end I found at the arcades.  Again, I can't stress enough that I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I just want to be informed.

[FrizzleFried]

 

[Circo]

It's never been a secret that HyperSpin was directly inspired from both Ultracade and Ultrastyle.  There is no code or anything stolen from ultracade, but yes HyperSpin is meant to be a front end that will make your cabinet "look" like an ultracade cab.

Not sure what or if this is a big deal, but it should not be.

[retrometro]

Thanks for the info.  If it's widely known, it wasn't to me.  Here's an interview of the Ultracade CEO and at time 1:03 they demonstrate how the Ultracade menu system works.

Thats cool that it's meant to look like the ultracade menu even down to the little pointy game selection needle.  Since Ultracade's a commercial product, do you think there will be problems if / when Hyperspin ever decides to go commercial?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgiqpobgpTU[/youtube]

[Circo]

I dont know if I should say this, but I do know Bill even had communication from Dave Foley congratulating him on the FE.   

But their are no plans to go commercial with HyperSpin, especially since many of the themes are being created by different people.  Also you would have to license the images used in the themes from all of the different TM holders.

HyperSpin may look like ultracade, but a TON of work is being done to support all emulators and their game lists.  Plus give each user the ability to easily create their own themes and customize the appearance of the front-end.  Ultracade doesn't do all that, and the software is not available for any of us to use.

[Loafmeister]

Inspired is the proper term.

If borrowing a "look" would be illegal, then most fighters and shooters wouldn't have gone very far AND MS-Windows would never have gotten off the ground... .

[headkaze]

Bill did say when he first announced HS that it was influenced by Ultracade. I think it could be called a "Ultracade clone" because it does borrow heavily from it's design. It's not widely known because it's not really been touted as an Ultracade clone, and people are infact calling it a revolution in FE's. While it's very impressive I'm not sure if it deserves that title. But HS is free and will more than likely go beyond Ultracade in terms of features, and infact I think it already has.

David Foley is aware of HS and has posted in a thread related to it, so I don't think there is a problem.

Circo: I believe UltraStyle was an Ultracade clone aswell.

[Circo]

Just to be clear, here are some interesting posts:

David Foley commenting on a HyperSpin theme and how ultracade artwork was stored
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83018.msg870636#msg870636

The Hyperspin clone of Ultracade discussion
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82201.msg857278#msg857278

First Hyperspin announcement on BYAOC, second sentence mentions Ultracade
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=76698.msg798523#msg798523

Like I said, "Widely Known"

Also there will eventually be more than one wheel style, there are currently two.  So eventually it may start looking less and less like ultracade (if you want it too).

Headkaze: I am fairly certain that your right about Ultrastyle, but I wasn't 100% on that.

[headkaze]

Like I said, "Widely Known"

Yes widely known to the regulars like us

Also there will eventually be more than one wheel style, there are currently two.  So eventually it may start looking less and less like ultracade (if you want it too).

Yep like the Future Pinball theme for example.

[retrometro]

I dont know if I should say this, but I do know Bill even had communication from Dave Foley congratulating him on the FE.  

Thanks Circo.  That's pretty cool.  So is Joshua Technology a part of Ultracade or owned by Dave Foley?  If not (and he likes HS so much), couldn't he just save a butt load of money and switch Ultracade's menu to HS instead?  A follow-up question is if Joshua Technology plans to keep developing its menu system?

Inspired is the proper term.

If borrowing a "look" would be illegal, then most fighters and shooters wouldn't have gone very far AND MS-Windows would never have gotten off the ground... .

lol on the shooters.  I was just thinking that on an unrelated note earlier this morning.  

[Circo]

Like I said, "Widely Known"

Yes widely known to the regulars like us

Also there will eventually be more than one wheel style, there are currently two.  So eventually it may start looking less and less like ultracade (if you want it too).

Yep like the Future Pinball theme for example.

Actually, the future pinball theme is kind of a rip from the ultrapin cab.... So still kind of clone like  

But seriously, I would say that all front ends borrow from each other to some extent.  Compare GameEx, Mala, & Atomic to MameWah and before that Arcade OS.  You will find that there are alot of similarities.

[retrometro]

Like I said, "Widely Known"

Yes widely known to the regulars like us

I guess I'm not as well read.  

I do remember one of the threads when AtomicFE borrowed some of the HS themes and called it "Hyperspin inspired skin" and people jumped all over him for it.  At the time, I didn't see anyone jumping in and writing that they were both borrowing from Ultracade.

[headkaze]

Actually, the future pinball theme is kind of a rip from the ultrapin cab.... So still kind of clone like  

Lol I didn't know that, and here I was thinking someone was being original! But your right FE authors have been copying each other since day dot.

I do remember one of the threads when AtomicFE borrowed some of the HS themes and called it "Hyperspin inspired skin" and people jumped all over him for it.  At the time, I didn't see anyone jumping in and writing that they were both borrowing from Ultracade.

Actually I did make a point of that in the thread where Cake was using Hyperspin themes in Khameleon. But the fuss was more about using the themes before HS was released and not asking for permission to use them. There is a big difference between using someone's assets without asking and designing something similar.

[Dazz]

BTW the creator of Ultracade is actually a member on the HyperSpin forums and has also shown his support for the project.  He sent some very kind words along to Bill about HyperSpin while we were still in a closed beta.

So, what's your point?

[retrometro]

BTW the creator of Ultracade is actually a member on the HyperSpin forums and has also shown his support for the project.  He sent some very kind words along to Bill about HyperSpin while we were still in a closed beta.

So, what's your point?

Geez dude, take a chill pill and insert whatever 80's phrase you want here.  Carefully take a deep breath and read the original post and subsequent messages by others and me.  This isn't Jeopardy where the answer or statement is phrased in the form of a question. 

I'm obviously not as well read as others on the matter and as you can see, folks quickly jumped in and provided great info and even links to relevant discussions from these forums.   

...and they did so very eloquently without jumping into defense mode.   

[brian_hoffman]

Well nothing tangable is borrowed.. JoshuaOS is the propreitay linux install Ultracade runs on. None of thier art is used. None of thier code is used..

HS just mimics the behavior.
Is there a reason you didnt ask this on the hs board? Were you intending this to blow up and thought the best place was here on saints board?!?


Yes HS looks like ultracade.... There the cat is out of the bag.. No one at HS is affilated with GlobalVR the current owners of ultracade and arcade legends.. There is no plan right now to go commertial.

To be clear I dont believe anything is wrong with looking similar... New Linux builds look alot like windows take the explorer feel... Have desktop icons and do drag and drop... Use the little mouse curosr... So does MAC

Anyone can go to any pc and be able to basically use it...  Its just a interface

Your post was very well thought out.. you did your homework.. Im sure you went to the arcade. Saw the cabs.. Went home grabbed your camera, did your reasearch, Posted a nice long post and included your media uploads.. It appears you are addressing this question to HS.. But then its here and not over at HS where Im sure you would get the most accurate feedback..  Doesnt make a whole lot of since to me... Im not flaming you but maybe Im not getting your intentions..  If they were to simply understand whats going on why now just ask directly?

By now you have the awnsers to your question.  Did you get the info you needed?


Brian Hoffman

[retrometro]

Is there a reason you didnt ask this on the hs board? Were you intending this to blow up and thought the best place was here on saints board?!?

Definitely not for it to blow up.  It would have been far easier to use language that would have been taken as accusatory instead of writing what I considered a more preemptively careful tone.

As proven correctly by the majority of responses to my questions, posting to a relatively impartial board like arcadecontrols turned out to be a great idea.  I find that most of its members tend to be in the know and are less likely to jump all over you for not knowing as much as they do.

[brian_hoffman]

Gotcha.
Hope you are having a great weekend. On a side note how many games did those machines have on them?  And is there anything that sttod out that you would like to see implemented in HS.. We dont have access to alot of those machines.

Already in the works is the controls screen... The genre menu exists but I dont think anyone has bothered setting it up. 

[FrizzleFried]

...and they did so very eloquently without jumping into defense mode.   

I don't know Dazz personally,  but from the last dozen or so posts I've ready from him,  he is quite easy to "set-off".  Not sure why he's so high strung,  but he is...

[Dazz]

Actually I am not easy to "set-off"...  quite the opposite.  My post in this thread wasn't meant to be defensive and I am sorry if it was taken that way.  I simply posted a fact that the creator of Ultracade was on board with HyperSpin and has contributed to the project.  I then asked what the point was of creating such a thread especially when this has been discussed in almost all of the previous HS threads.

Most of my previous posts here have been in defense of HyperSpin due to the fact of other FE developers trying to release our themes and some of our hand created artwork before we even had an open beta.  Wouldn't you get a bit "high strung" if some of your work was being released before you had the opportunity to release it your self?

[Loafmeister]

I think there is a point to make that people shouldn't get defensive, a question is a question.

But...

The moment you put the word "borrow" in quotes, you are leaning in a direction that to me, should not surprise you if someone is defensive in the response.  So please, give us the readership a break, no one should act surprised if anyone is defensive.  Ownership of this issue goes to the question as much as the answer.

Now let me preface this with the following:  Don't get me wrong, I see no problem with the question as is, just that it leads to the answer it got.  Nothing wrong with both, this is a freakin' mature message board, right?  Let's party on!

[davidrfoley]

First of all, let's be clear that you can't copyright look and feel of software.  This was proven out years ago when Apple Sued Microsoft over the Windows interface (of course Apple mimicked Xerox).

HyperSpin has nothing to do with UltraCade or anyone involved in the UltraCade Products.

I'd also like to clear up the misunderstanding about Joshua Technlogy.  Joshua Technology is a one man company that has a proprietary operating system that is a cross between DOS and Linux.  It was used as the operating system for UltraCade.  Joshua Technology didn't come up and does not own the UltraCade FE, it was designed by the UltraCade team while at Quantum3D and then HyperWare.   All of the key technology in the UltraCade product is currently owned by Buen Diseno, and non-exclusively licensed to Global VR.  Buen Diseno is currently considering opening up the technology it owns under an Open Source release.  There is no official update as to that, but I'll keep you posted.

HyperSpin was built from scratch and has nothing from the UltraCade system.  I have no ownership in HyperSpin, but have taken a great interest in seeing it developed.  I think it has huge potential and already has many great features that were never in the UltraCade interface.  I've offered my advice and suggestions to the HyperSpin team about how to improve HyperSpin and make it a world class interface.

[retrometro]

Your post was very well thought out.. you did your homework.. Im sure you went to the arcade. Saw the cabs.. Went home grabbed your camera, did your reasearch, Posted a nice long post and included your media uploads.. It appears you are addressing this question to HS.. But then its here and not over at HS where Im sure you would get the most accurate feedback..  Doesnt make a whole lot of since to me...

Thanks for giving me a lot more credit than deserved.  Actually the kids had the day with the women folk and several friends and I went to one of those local indoor go-kart, battlemech, and laser tag parks that also happened to have a small arcade inside.  As I'm sure most members of this board do, I immediately checked out all the cabs they had and saw the Ultracade Arcade Classics cab.  Had I gone back, I would have had my camcorder.

My initial reaction was:  "Wow!  HS's already gone commercial!  I can't wait to post this to the forums"  I didn't even notice the cell phone cam shots of the screens with Joshua Technology until I bluetoothed them to the mac.  Now that Foley's cleared up Joshua Tech's lack of involvement with any of the FE's, it's clear now why all google had to show for was Ultracade's PDF manual. 

The question was directed at HS and the general arcadecontrols community.  As I wrote earlier, I'm not sure posting to arcadecontrols for the impartial clarity and cross posting to the HS forums would have been a good idea especially if there was a disagreement.  As stated before, I'm glad I posted here as it was validated by all the right folks that jumped in.

Gotcha.  Hope you are having a great weekend. On a side note how many games did those machines have on them?  And is there anything that sttod out that you would like to see implemented in HS.. We dont have access to alot of those machines.

My arms are still hurting this a.m. from the go-karts.  :-)  They had a multicade looking cab with fewer than the usual 48-in-1 boards.  The Arcade Classics one I think had about 30 to 40 games.  If anyone is in the Houston area, you can check out where this Ultracade is at:  http://track21houston.com

The cab is in great condition.  Very responsive although it's hard to tell from the cell phone video.  Thanks for asking, there were a couple of features that I thought was cool (perhaps my memory is off) was that because the FE was in attract mode for all the games, the screen didn't stay at the last game played or where the menu pointer stopped.  After the game is done, it would pick other themes or games to play.

The other minor feature I liked was being able to insert coins and get credits at the FE level before the games loaded up.  I don't know how they did that in the ultracade FE but it may be difficult and not worthwhile for a home setup by having to pass credits to mame.

Actually I am not easy to "set-off"...  quite the opposite.  My post in this thread wasn't meant to be defensive and I am sorry if it was taken that way.  I simply posted a fact that the creator of Ultracade was on board with HyperSpin and has contributed to the project.

No problem at all and no harm done.  I had no idea until I read Circo's replies and forum URLs about this topic.

I think there is a point to make that people shouldn't get defensive, a question is a question.
But...  The moment you put the word "borrow" in quotes, you are leaning in a direction that to me, should not surprise you if someone is defensive in the response.

You are absolutely right.  I've modified my original post to remove the quotes.

I'd also like to clear up the misunderstanding about Joshua Technlogy.  Joshua Technology is a one man company that has a proprietary operating system that is a cross between DOS and Linux.  It was used as the operating system for UltraCade.  Joshua Technology didn't come up and does not own the UltraCade FE, it was designed by the UltraCade team while at Quantum3D and then HyperWare.

Thanks.  I believe this is about the last question none of the other forum members has answered.  I'm surprised somewhat that they were able to get their name plastered onto the FE background/wallpaper as they had no relation to the design of the FE, cabinet, games, or the company itself.  It seems it would have been more appropriate for Quantum3D or HyperWare to be on the wallpapers.

[TheShanMan]

The other minor feature I liked was being able to insert coins and get credits at the FE level before the games loaded up.  I don't know how they did that in the ultracade FE but it may be difficult and not worthwhile for a home setup by having to pass credits to mame.

Not going to happen with MAME. They won't do anything that's specifically geared towards using MAME for commercial purposes.

[youki]

The other minor feature I liked was being able to insert coins and get credits at the FE level before the games loaded up.  I don't know how they did that in the ultracade FE but it may be difficult and not worthwhile for a home setup by having to pass credits to mame.

Not going to happen with MAME. They won't do anything that's specifically geared towards using MAME for commercial purposes.

I did that with my FE , 4 year ago , and  the reaction of some guy in the community was very rude....  so i removed that feature from the public release.  But technically it is quiet easy to do.

[Cakemeister]

If anyone is in the Houston area, you can check out where this Ultracade is at:  http://track21houston.com

Thanks for the tip. It's not too far fro me, indoor go-karts sounds fun, it beats the heat.

[TheShanMan]

The other minor feature I liked was being able to insert coins and get credits at the FE level before the games loaded up.  I don't know how they did that in the ultracade FE but it may be difficult and not worthwhile for a home setup by having to pass credits to mame.

Not going to happen with MAME. They won't do anything that's specifically geared towards using MAME for commercial purposes.

I did that with my FE , 4 year ago , and  the reaction of some guy in the community was very rude....  so i removed that feature from the public release.  But technically it is quiet easy to do.

Really? I would think it wouldn't be easy. The credit mechanisms of games vary. Some have a common credit system, some have credit counts for each player. Some use start buttons, some use action buttons (buttons used during gameplay). Some use 1 coin per credit, some use more. Doesn't that make it a difficult problem for a FE (or MAME) to overcome, unless MAME was specifically designed to keep track of credits in a common way?

[brian_hoffman]

Adding COIN support? Never

BUT

Doing it would be very easy..
Write a auto hot key script that LISTENS for the 5 or 6 key to be pressed. Then lets say you pressed it 4 times.
Then wait for MAME.exe process then send input 5, 4 times.. 
When MAME.exe process is running dont listen for the coin key as mame will pick it up.

Simple... But we would NEVER do it... 
We really are not fond of bad press.

[headkaze]

Adding COIN support? Never

BUT

Doing it would be very easy..
Write a auto hot key script that LISTENS for the 5 or 6 key to be pressed. Then lets say you pressed it 4 times.
Then wait for MAME.exe process then send input 5, 4 times.. 
When MAME.exe process is running dont listen for the coin key as mame will pick it up.

Simple... But we would NEVER do it... 
We really are not fond of bad press.

Not that simple I'm afraid; Mame's Raw Input System prevents AutoHotkey scripts from sending keys to it.

[brian_hoffman]

I guess so... unless you opted for a 116 build or earlier.. I only suggest AHK as Im most comfortable with it and is how I think it could be done... Id have no cluse on how to do it in any other language 

[youki]

The credit mechanisms of games vary. Some have a common credit system, some have credit counts for each player. Some use start buttons, some use action buttons (buttons used during gameplay). Some use 1 coin per credit, some use more. Doesn't that make it a difficult problem for a FE (or MAME) to overcome, unless MAME was specifically designed to keep track of credits in a common way?

I manage all that cases.  A close Friends it exploiting Atomic in his Arcade roms since 4 years now. With no problem.
I made this feature for him at start. His problem, he has a very little arcade rom in a little village. He had about 50 old PCB not jamma ( PAcman, donkey kong, popeye..etc..) he wanted to exploit again, and unfortunally no more old Cabinet , no time  to make jamma converter for each board and in addition no room left to put more than one cab so i could only exploit one game.   Now, thanks to Atomic, he had one JAMMA cab running all his 50 games (only the ones he own) , and he is very happy with that he had no problem with the credit system , Atomic manages all case no hardware for credit is required.   So i know Mame team is against that,  but i'm really happy to see all this classics game in a arcade roms instead of sleeping somewhere taking the dust.  And young generation are happy to discover that games!.  FYI , that's the only person except me that have Atomic with credit management enabled  thanks to the bad experience i had then i made a prototype public 4 year ago here.
Please don't ask me for that version, i won't provide it . 

[TheShanMan]

Adding COIN support? Never

BUT

Doing it would be very easy..
Write a auto hot key script that LISTENS for the 5 or 6 key to be pressed. Then lets say you pressed it 4 times.
Then wait for MAME.exe process then send input 5, 4 times.. 
When MAME.exe process is running dont listen for the coin key as mame will pick it up.

Simple... But we would NEVER do it... 
We really are not fond of bad press.

Another thing making it not so simple: most games you have to wait for game boot up to complete before the coin slots will do anything.

No, I don't have any great desire to accomplish this myself Youki. It would be a nice thing to have, but I don't care about it enough to go begging for special builds of any FE.