>>>>> Donkey Kong II released <<<<<<<

[ChadTower]

I would anyway because it's still pretty freakin cool.

[Jack Burton]

*adds more to the flames*

I've  played dozens of SNES and NES rom hacks.  Most of them probably took months if not years to create.  Many are as good as or better than the original game. 

Charging for ROM hacks is beyond taboo in the ROM hacking community.  Anybody caught doing so or even attempting it would be publicly ostracized.  The ROM hacking community says that if you want to charge for ROM hacks, no matter how good they may be, they don't need you or your contributions.

I feel the same way about this Jeff guy.  He should never have charged for his hack, he never should have planned to charge for it. 

"What about all his hard work?"  "Shouldn't he be rewarded?" "Shouldn't he be compensated?"

Yes, with gratitude from fans and the satisfaction that his work is being played and enjoyed.  But no money.  Money only brings about scenario's exactly like what has transpired, and it is hypocritical to ask for it in exactly the way isucamper has mentioned. 

Did DrewSeph ask for money for Super Metroid: Redesign? No.  Fusoya for Super Demo World? No.  Euclid for Zelda Parallel Worlds? No.  No major ROM hacker has ever charged for his work.  This situation is atypical for the community.  The fact that hacking arcade games is uncommon is probably the reasoning for this. 

Charging for ROM hacks is foolish.  The very same people who have no qualms about downloading thousands of IP's of million dollar corporations will have absolutely no problems with downloading yours.  To expect any less is insanity.  This is another reason why ROM hackers have traditionally never attempted sales. 

AT BEST the only thing I could see Jeff charging for is the service of selling complete DK2 kits or ROMs pre-flashed that could be installed on a board whilst offering the ROM for free on his website.  I do not believe this would affect his sales significantly.  This is quite acceptable in the ROM hacking community as there is a small economy of people who reprogram and sell custom cartridges for a small fee.  In this way they are charging for the service of preparing the cartridge, and not for the ROM itself. 

If I download DK2 I'm not gonna pay for it.  I'm an ---uvula--- like that.  If I really like it I will send the creator an email detailing my experiences with the game and my thanks.  I won't send him any money because it's against my beliefs.  If he can't handle that then I guess that is just something I can't change and I'll leave him alone. 

I probably won't even download it though cause I don't even wanna bother with the whole situation and I'm not bored of DK1 yet.

[CheffoJeffo]

It is an interesting dichotomy -- we get the console guys talking about how charging is unacceptable in the ROM hacking community and the coinop guys saying how pirating this particular ROM is unacceptable in the coinop community (whose ROM hacking predates the console world).

Different worlds converging because of MAME.

[TheShanMan]

Jack, I find your reasoning to be so utterly ridiculous (but hey, it does justify stealing it in your mind I'm sure), especially since Jeff got permission from Nintendo, that I don't even think your points merit response (not like it would add anything new to the debate anyway).

[Jack Burton]

Jeff's "permission" is non-existent. 
It's more like they don't care about the amount of money such a small project can make. 

If somehow Jeff got into some legal trouble concerning this hack Nintendo would deny ever even having any knowledge of it, or even take legal action against him just to save face.

[FrizzleFried]

Jack, I find your reasoning to be so utterly ridiculous (but hey, it does justify stealing it in your mind I'm sure), especially since Jeff got permission from Nintendo, that I don't even think your points merit response (not like it would add anything new to the debate anyway).

To be clear... Jeff did "not" get "permission" from Nintendo.  Nintendo was/is aware of the project and unoffically indicated that they'd have no financial motivation to go after Jeff.  A big difference.

[Jack Burton]

I'll add one final statement relating to the ROM hacking community. 

The #1 reason that ROM hackers have traditionally done their work as for free is the belief that large corporations have less of a problem with tributes that are given out for without charge than they do with someone who is trying to make money off of their IP. 

This is merely theoretical, and it seems that it may not even be the case.  It would have absolutely zero merit in a court of law.  The recent controversy over Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes is evidence of this.  This was a full hack of Chrono Trigger that completely redesigned and rewrote the game that was to be released free to the public that Square-Enix squashed very harshly.

But it still seems to the be the rule that thousands of people in the ROM hacking community live by. 

Now, there is one other issue, and that is whether or not hacks like D2K can even be construed as illegal at all.  A ROM hack that is distributed as a patch to the original ROM is not illegal as long as it contains no code or imagery that is copyrighted by the original copyright holder.   At least that's one way of interpreting the law.

There is some controversy over the ideas of derivative code, copyright protection circumvention, and how to make legal back-ups and use them, but that is all DMCA nonsense that is self-conflicting anyway.  Let's avoid it. 

If somebody wanted to be a rebel and flout the ROM hacking communities rules, and fight for the right for their ROM hacks to be published then more power to them.  I wish them success.  But at the same time I also hope that they do not makes things worse than they already are.  I contradict myself here, but those are my feelings. 

[CheffoJeffo]

If somebody wanted to be a rebel and flout the ROM hacking communities rules, and fight for the right for their ROM hacks to be published then more power to them.  I wish them success.  But at the same time I also hope that they do not makes things worse than they already are.

Coinop and console are very different worlds. You refer to your more familiar turf as if the other did not exist and apply those rules blindly. Similarly, I apply the standards from the coinop world with only slightly more regard.

One of the big differences is that the coinop community doesn't have enough people like Jeff that we can afford to kiss them off.

We're also a bunch of grumpy old ---daisies--- who see you johnny-come-lately hippies for the anarcho-romantic-metrosexual-lawn-stepping-communists that you are! 

I contradict myself here, but those are my feelings. 

In this hobby, I think we all do at some point ... I know I do all the time

 .

[TheShanMan]

To be clear... Jeff did "not" get "permission" from Nintendo.  Nintendo was/is aware of the project and unoffically indicated that they'd have no financial motivation to go after Jeff.  A big difference.

I stand corrected. Luckily that is not the basis for my view of this issue.

[Ummon]

Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh. Gooood stuff.  Anyways, I obviously mis-read what Shan said about his D2K kit. I thought it came with the machine.

Jeff: I'm waiting for the Singularity, when none of this will likely have any relevance....if it really does right now.

[newkillergenius]

After reading all this- I just have to ask-

Do all of you MAME users on this forum own the actual PCB for the ROM files you have crammed into your MAME machines?
And why do we actually give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about a rom hack?  He didn't have permission from Nintendo!  Period!  I'm not paying him for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!
Is this anything like paying 100$ for a 60-1 jamma multigame board that is also manufactured without permission?

(cue the hurricane)

[CheffoJeffo]

Lots of people here justify downloading ROMs by thinking that the format is obsolete and/or it doesn't hurt the owners of the IP. That may or may not be true and there are arguments for both sides.

The point that has been made over and over again is that Jeff is "one of us", has done great things for the community and that ---smurfing--- him over is a bad thing.

Buying a 60-in-1 or xxx-in-1 disrespects the MAMEDevs, which is why we don't discuss sources for them here, but a number of folks here have them (myself included). For my part, I already had a vertical MAME cabinet and just replaced the PC with the 60-in-1 -- no real change in effect on anything, except that I got to repurpose the MAME rig. Some folks would disapprove, but I am able to justify it to myself.

OTOH, there are enthusiasts in this hobby who do great things and pissing them off doesn't encourage them to continue. If that doesn't bother you then fine, but it bothers me, as it does many others. The sad thing is that most of the disrespect comes from emulation folks, which is just another reason for the divide within the hobby.

EDIT: I should allow that the disrespect thing goes both ways -- it is mostly the real coinop guys who use the xx-in-1 boards and that pisses off the MAMEDevs.

An alternative to your 60-in-1 analogy would be the case of cloning boards designed and manufactured by hobbyists, which does happen and, yes, people in the hobby do get pissed off when that happens as well. If someone were to clone jrok's SYSFPGA board, I would be rather pissed off. Same thing with Dave Widel's 440 Multi kit (although that is licensed by Exidy, so he would have a legal leg to stand on).

It all depends on what is important to you.

[FrizzleFried]

After reading all this- I just have to ask-

Do all of you MAME users on this forum own the actual PCB for the ROM files you have crammed into your MAME machines?
And why do we actually give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about a rom hack?  He didn't have permission from Nintendo!  Period!  I'm not paying him for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!
Is this anything like paying 100$ for a 60-1 jamma multigame board that is also manufactured without permission?

(cue the hurricane)

[isucamper]

Yeah.  Why are we bringing this up again?  I think we all settled on agreeing to disagree.  As Cheffo said, arguments on both sides of a pretty gray area. 

[RayB]

Yeah.  Why are we bringing this up again?  I think we all settled on agreeing to disagree.  As Cheffo said, arguments on both sides of a pretty gray area. 

Cuz Mods didn't lock this thread like they should have.

[newkillergenius]

After reading all this- I just have to ask-

Do all of you MAME users on this forum own the actual PCB for the ROM files you have crammed into your MAME machines?
And why do we actually give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about a rom hack?  He didn't have permission from Nintendo!  Period!  I'm not paying him for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!
Is this anything like paying 100$ for a 60-1 jamma multigame board that is also manufactured without permission?

(cue the hurricane)

Yeah.  Why are we bringing this up again?  I think we all settled on agreeing to disagree.  As Cheffo said, arguments on both sides of a pretty gray area. 

Cuz Mods didn't lock this thread like they should have.

erm- because this is a discussion forum?   

And as far as your troll comment- doesn't bother me.  I just was curious to see how everyone justifies their owning copyrighted material.  I have to admit I thought I was purchasing a licensed board when I bought a 60-1 board, but found out that this was not the case.  Just keeping it real- 
Jeffo thanks for your post though-
NKG

[RayB]

What's the inevitable result of this? 

BACON!

[Ummon]

BACONNNNNNN. BACON BACON BACON BACON!.......

I think that's not too done.....ah lahk mahn flappae yoo knoww.

[flashiv]

What's the inevitable result of this? 

BACON!

I have to agree Ray.  Bacon is the answer.