Anyone make a cab out of anything other than MDF?

[bosco]

I'm about ready to make my cab.   I really don't want to make it out of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- particle board.  I would like to use some sort of cabinet grade plywood.  My problem is I don't want to see the grain when I'm done painting it.  Any ideas?  Different wood?

[prOk]

if you don't want to see grain and you're painting/covering it, cabinet grade plywood is a complete waste of money.   MDF is just fine for building arcade cabs and it paints quite well.  Don't psyche yourself out of using that for no reason, you 'd be surprised how much is made from the stuff out there (even at robb and stuckey furniture stores you'll find it in a 10,000.00 dresser).   Besides, MDF works easier than ply to boot.

I've built dozens of cabinets over time from MDF, Particle board, Plywood, you name it.. all depends on what result i'm after.   

/b

[kevink]

Yea, I made mine out of 3/4 Birch plywood.  It's expensive, but I have no plans to build another, and I wanted to make sure I built it to last.  As far as being a complete waste of money, I don't know.  I used a rustoleum hammered finish paint on mine.  It is pretty glossy and didn't match well with the flat background of the sideart I ordered, but that looks better than my carpentry work in my opinion.  I should have built my cab out of metal.

[prOk]

I do believe building a cabinet you want to paint and not see wood grain in would be a waste..   To think that somehow plywood is more 'built to last' than mdf is untrue.  There are plenty of original cabinets from the 70's in great shape built of mdf.   All wood based materials are subject to deterioration due to poor treatment.. they all just show it differently.

Simple reality is, someone building a brand new cabinet today, even if you made it from mashed potatoes... you're going to take care of it.. it's not bouncing around trucks on an arcade route.. it's plopped in your basement or gameroom and there it sits.  (for the realistic year, maybe two you actually keep it).

MDF, Partical board, plywood, solid wood.. all just fine materials to build an arcade cabinet from.. no one material is 'superior' to build with.  Aesthetics are really all that matters when it comes to choosing materials.

/b

[bosco]

Yeah that was my idea, building it to last.  If press board gets wet...it starts to fall apart (not that I'm ever planning on it getting wet).  I also found that anything built out of particle board is very heavy.  Since I was building it for myself
I thought I would spend good money and make it REALLY nice.  But maybe PrOk is right, maybe I'm going overboard.  Thanks for your thoughts....any other input would be appreciated.

Oh I was originally thinking of a grand piano.  I know they are made out of wood (not press board) and I remember seeing a high gloss paint without seeing any grain.

[prOk]

What you see on a piano is not paint at all.. it's actually Laquer.   That process involves multiple coats of primer and sanding until you fill all the grain in the wood.  Then in one final coat, you apply a nice black (or whatever) pigmented laquer.   Pianos are different as real wood resonates better so there is a logical reason for wood.

Don't worry about water on pressboard or mdf any more than you would on plywood.  The key is to use a good quality paint and paint it well.  That will act as a barrier against the occasional spill.   Just because plywood doesn't puff when it gets wet doesn't mean other things don't happen.. plywood can delaminate, woodgrains can raise.. many things..  the best solution is to not let it get wet!

[DrewKaree]

Go get some regular plywood.  Then go see my project thread.  Use the joint compound as I laid out in there. 

There ARE reasons to use plywood, and it most DEFINITELY is easier to deal with than MDF, not to mention that MDF will dull your tools faster than plywood, perhaps even making it necessary to buy new bits or blades.  You will also find it FAR easier to accidentally damage MDF.  It certainly would be a waste of material though if you were to use cabinet-grade plywood and then paint over it, although it will have a smoother surface to start with (generally) and may give you better results.  I doubt the extra cost would be worth that though. 

If you don't want to see the grain after painting it, the joint compound will work just fine, and it allows you to use a material you sound like you want to use, rather than something else you don't sound entirely confident in using. 

[prOk]

Please don't smear wallboard joint compound all over a cabinet to smooth it out.  There's quite a bit of misguided woodworking advice going on here

Wallboard compound is by no means an adhesive, nor is it flexible not to mention it's not made to work with wood.  It may look OK day one, but it will scratch, lift and fall out with ease every time you move that cabinet and flex the wood.  If you want smooth sides, start with the appropriate material in the first place.   The very last thing you want to use is cheap old low grade plywood.  You'll spend more time squaring, straightening and smoothing than the stuff's worth.

[DrewKaree]

Wallboard compound is by no means an adhesive

Where'd you get the idea I said it was to be used as an adhesive?  It certainly DOES stick to wood, and does so quite well. 

nor is it flexible

In the amount being used, it doesn't need to be. 

not to mention it's not made to work with wood.

Yet somehow, it manages to work just fine.

It may look OK day one, but it will scratch, lift and fall out with ease every time you move that cabinet and flex the wood.

Until you've done it, you're guessing at what'll happen.  If you have done it, you haven't had luck with it.  I have, it DOESN'T lift and fall out with ease ANY time you move it, and I have the personal experience to know what you're saying is wrong.  Period.  Scratches?  MDF crushes and "holds" a scratch, making it obvious to the eye and hard to disguise.  If your real issue is scratching, it's a wash at best, and at worst, MDF is the loser in that contest.

As for squaring, straightening, and smoothing, if the guy wants to use plywood, it will work, and you're doing him a disservice by stating possibilities, not known facts.  It's ALSO entirely possible to build something perfectly fine with "cheap old low grade plywood".  Why would you so actively work to tell him things that COULD happen and not say a word about precautions he'll have to take when using MDF?  Things that, if not addressed, WILL cause him problems.

What makes the advice "misguided"?  The fact that you haven't done it, or that you haven't had success with it? 

[DrewKaree]

Here.  Why don't you look at the label information. 

Tell me - AFTER reading it - if it "mentions not working with wood"

It's vinyl.  It'll flex.  Won't crumble, flake, or whatever other things you had to say about it.  Who says reading the directions doesn't have its merits?

It's highly insulting for you to state unequivocally that something I have personal experience with is to be considered "bad advice", especially considering one or more of your points are easily disproved, your assertion that it "won't work with wood" is clearly shown to be false by simply reading, in addition to my own experience with this practice (and no, this ISN'T the first time I've done that - it's why I did it in the first place) being able to be pointed to when disproving your assertion.

This isn't just a difference of opinion on my idea.  There are facts to back my idea up, while the only thing you've done in disputing my idea is give possibilities, hearsay, opinion, and flat out false statements. 

[Potts]

Many opinions in this thread - here is one for you "use the lightest material possible"- I have built 2 cabinets and bloody hell they are heavy.

See my latest build -
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=55917.0

I used plywood to curve around the surface and then I covered (liquid nailed) the ply with 3mm MDF - this method worked really well as it hides all the screws etc (much like laminating).  I got the cabinet sprayed in 2Pak Car Paint - fantastic finish, cheaper then buying laminate and much easier as the spray guys patched up and smoothed off for a great result. ...............but the fingure prints are a nightmare and the surface is not very hardwaring I think I might go back to laminating in the future

One other thing other people havn't mentioned MDF is some TOXIC f ing ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, I am affraid of using it - even if I use a mask the stuff still gets everywhere and having my son run around the workshop is very concering

Plenty of ways to achieve your goals and moral is don't stop asking questions and within the sea of advice you might find the answer you are looking for 

[nostrebor]

Might as well give you a choice that fills your desires and need for a smooth surfaces without all the extra work...

If you want plywood, are concerned about resistance to water, and need a smooth paintable surface there is a product that fits those needs right off the shelf.

It is called "MDO" or "Sign Painters Board"

It is usually 7 ply plywood, bonded with water resistant resins, and it has a skin of Resin pulp that makes it as smooth as MDF, but the skin is much more water resistant and tough. This material is designed specifically to be used in outdoor environments and to be painted. It will cost about the same amount as veneered cabinet grade plywood. You should be able to order it at the big box stores, or from a lumberyard. Check around town for signmakers or billboard companies, they can tell you (or help you) get it.

Here is a link to the wiki with the different materials you can use. You can also google "MDO" for more info...

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Wood_products

[nostrebor]

Looks like they also make MDO-A Which has a bonded ALUMINUM layer rather than paper.

That could be fun to play with in cabinet construction.

[Howard_Casto]

I wanted to chime in on this one because I saw a lot of mis-information floating around. 


1.  Plywood is 10 times more durable than mdf.  Mdf chips very easily and is prone to water damage.  Plywood is far more resistant in those respects.  Painting will not "waterproof" either material.  If you get mdf really wet, even if it is painted, it will swell up or crumble.  Painting protects it, but not completely and over time the paint will loose it's resistance to water.  Shellac/water seal is the only way to waterproof wood. You probably don't want to put either on a cab.

2.  Mdf, to my knowledge was never used on any commercial cabinet.  Particle board was, laminated particle board.  The thing is virtually any wood product will last forever once it is laminated so it wouldn't matter if it was pb or not.  Also if you look at cabs that DO have damage it'll be the sections that have exposed/painted particle board. 

3.  Furniture grade plywood's finish is considerably more fragile than regular grade.  That smooth finish is typically a vinear.  This top layer is very soft and will marr easily. 


I never use mdf on anything for the reasons others have mentioned.  Plywood is easy to work with and you can cover it if you aren't fond of the grain.  Btw it isn't hard to smooth out the regular grade either.  You just need an electric sander and either a big jar of wood filler or some bondo/joint compound.  Oh and on the lightest material possible bit, plywood (raw plywood, none of this mdf hybrid crap) is the lightest possible material you can use. 


I'm suprised no one has mentioned laminate.  It is more costly but if you put laminate on your cab it'll last forever barring some massive water damage.  A plywood laminate combo would probably give you the best of both worlds. 

[nostrebor]

Speaking of mis-information...

I wanted to chime in on this one because I saw a lot of mis-information floating around. 


1.  Plywood is 10 times more durable than mdf.  Mdf chips very easily and is prone to water damage.  Plywood is far more resistant in those respects.  Painting will not "waterproof" either material.  If you get mdf really wet, even if it is painted, it will swell up or crumble.  Painting protects it, but not completely and over time the paint will loose it's resistance to water.  Shellac/water seal is the only way to waterproof wood. You probably don't want to put either on a cab.

To be very clear, neither MDF, nor plywood, nor particleboard are resistant to water damage. If you get *any* of these products really wet, they will swell, de-laminate, and generally do bad things that make cabinet builders cry. Plywood is maybe twice as resistant to water as MDF, but either will give heaps of trouble if saturated. Proper painting techniques will greatly help, but nothing short of epoxy encapsulation will make wood products water-proof.

2.  Mdf, to my knowledge was never used on any commercial cabinet.  Particle board was, laminated particle board.  The thing is virtually any wood product will last forever once it is laminated so it wouldn't matter if it was pb or not.  Also if you look at cabs that DO have damage it'll be the sections that have exposed/painted particle board.

MDF was used in commercial cabinet construction. I have both a SEGA cabinet and a Game Plan cabinet in my garage right now, and both are made of pressed paper pulp board, with properties similar to modern MDF board. The Game Plan cab is severely water damaged, the Sega cab is in remarkably good shape.

3.  Furniture grade plywood's finish is considerably more fragile than regular grade.  That smooth finish is typically a vinear.  This top layer is very soft and will marr easily. 

I agree. Furniture grade plywood should be handled with the same care you would handle real wood furniture.

I never use mdf on anything for the reasons others have mentioned.  Plywood is easy to work with and you can cover it if you aren't fond of the grain.  Btw it isn't hard to smooth out the regular grade either.  You just need an electric sander and either a big jar of wood filler or some bondo/joint compound.  Oh and on the lightest material possible bit, plywood (raw plywood, none of this mdf hybrid ---meadow muffin---) is the lightest possible material you can use. 

You can spend the time to flatten the grain of structural grade plywood, if you can purchase sheetstock that is not warped, edge damaged from shipping, or damaged to begin with. Structural grade plywood will have fewer plys, less water-resistant glues, and voids in the plys that will show up as you cut it. It is specifically designed to be strong and light in residential or commercial building construction, not flat and smooth for cabinet builders or finish carpenters.

-OR-

for about $10-$15 more per sheet you can use the MDO mentioned above, which is a plywood product that is shipped and handled like furniture grade plywood, uses resins and glues designed to be outdoors, has more wood plys, is manufactured to be flat and true, and has a finished surface that was designed *specifically* to be painted and leave a smooth void-free surface.

I think the choice should be left up to the reader. Plenty of factual information has been provided, and a search of  MDO, MDF, and plywood on google will render a number of sites giving the proper usage and suggested practices for each.

An arcade cabinet builder is assembling a structure using techniques similar to building furniture. In my opinion we should not be steering these fledgling woodworkers toward a product that is designed for rough framing construction.

[rdowdy95]

Man you guys like to fight on here about wood.  But you know that is a good thing because it shows you are very passionate about woodworking.

To the original poster I am using birch plywood for my cabniet.  Then I am sanding it and putting on 2 coats of Minwax Polyshades.  It is a  one-step stain and finish that provides rich wood color and durable polyurethane protection.  I am using the classic oak color.  Then I will have black T-molding.  My control panel is also going to be the 3/4" birch ply.  I am not using any laminate on the control panel.  Just good ole birch ply!  I love the wood grain look.

[nickbuol]

I just stumbles across this thread (haven't been around here for a while).  Anyway, I won't touch the plywood vs. funiture grade vs. MDF, but i will tell you this.

My first cabinet was made with "chunky" particle board.  You know, the kind that looks like a bunch od large "chunks" were glued and press together...  Anyway, I covered it, don't laugh, with an adhesive and then black vinal.  It was cheap, and so was I.

It was build very solid, but the adhesive started to give way over time, and I got bubbles in the vinyl.

So, fast forward about 6 years to my 2nd cabinet.  I've learned how to use real power tools, and understand that one good (and correct) tool is better than 2 cheap, or "not quite right for the job, but I'll make it work" tools.

I've also learned that if I am going to make something that will last, I mean that I want it to last, so for #2, I used a higher quality "fine" particle board base.  The kind that you see in the cross section of your kitchen counter top, and I sure as heck laminated it with a nice quality laminate.  Now THAT stuff is durable.  Looks better than anything I have personally (note the word personally, there may be something better) seen in a cabinet.  It cleans up well, you can put artwork on it without having to worry about the surface ever coming off, etc.   I mean, really, it IS a counter top in essence, so it should be strong.

Now, I've seen some nice paint jobs on cabinets, with many, many, MANY coats and a lot of sanding.  It CAN be done and hide every bit of wood grain.  To me, my time is worth more than that.  I mean really, a cabinet takes long enough to build.  Granted, I had to get a sheet of 12' long laminate, which wasn't cheap, but I don't plan on ever building another cabinet again, and I saved my self probably 2 weeks of evenings by not painting and sanding all 14+ coats that the one guy did years ago (wish I had a link). 

Good luck, my friend.  It is a fun process.  Oh, and keep in mind something that I have heard horror stories about more than the type of wood.  If you are doing a custom designed cabinet, make sure that it fits through the doorway of where it is going, or if you are building it where it is going to be (I build mine in my partially finished basement, and then moved it out when it was time to carpet.  Mine fit just fine, but what a surprise that would have been if it didn't), make sure that you can get it out.  Either way, the sucker is going to weigh a LOT.

[DrewKaree]

My first cabinet was made with "chunky" particle board.  You know, the kind that looks like a bunch od large "chunks" were glued and press together...  Anyway, I covered it, don't laugh, with an adhesive and then black vinal.  It was cheap, and so was I.

That stuff was OSB (oriented strand board), I'm thinkin'.

[nickbuol]

That stuff was OSB (oriented strand board), I'm thinkin'.

Yup!  Thanks.  I couldn't remember what the stuff was called.

[NiteWalker]

When I build my cab, it's getting made out of 3/4" oak or maple plywood. Much more durable than MDF and lighter. It'll be getting laminated so grain isn't important. Smoothness, durability and screw holding power is what I'm after.

[lloydcom]

My cab had a weight issue - I could not go the MDF route as the weight limitation on the first floor would cause structural damage - hey I have cracks in the ceiling below - not good.   

So I designed the cab based on a frame, using softwood, I built a cabaret with particle board sides and bezel, I opted for a LCD display and a X-Arcade CP.  Main reason for this is the Dreamcast, PSX and Xbox options.  Why have consoles laying around when you can have Soul Calibur on VGA on the DC!

Even with the PC and the consoles the weight is less than 70 lbs and very sturdy.  I had to be able to pick the cab up without straining in fear that it would go through the floor boards.  The chest of drawers I have is heavier, but in a different part of the room.

Building the frame was real easy - just doodled a design and went for it, unfortunately the first attempt sucked, but with the X arcade CP in place the final version works.  Using MDF is the easy way to go, but if you have weight restrictions, building a frame is the best way to go.

I had a real tough time of making it - purely out of lack of options.  There is practically no others out there that go the frame route, as nearly all have the MDF sides.

Here is the image of it - the speakers are gone and the bezel is painted black - the TFT frame has black electrical tape on it now and a spinner is on the side - neat idea too.  The PC fan is inside to keep the TFT cool.  The image from the Daewoo TFT is stunning.  Glad I didn't rotate it.



I have yet to make the marquee - got the plastics cut out and the transparencies, just finishing the artwork in Photoshop and hoping the image doesn't suck too much.  I added a keyboard drawer, and a support shelf for the consoles.

Softwood is so much easy to cut and its real cheap too.  I was so surprised as I am a wood noob.

The Xarcade will have some threaded mounting holes bored onto it for the Starwars Yoke, the USB wheel and a nice old RB2 trackerball. 

Let me know what you think.

[Zakk]

I think that if you're worried about a cabinet or dresser falling through the floor, you should move.

[Stingray]

I think that if you're worried about a cabinet or dresser falling through the floor, you should move.

Do you know any good realtors?

-S

[NightGod]

I'd take a bad realtor over worrying about my furniture crashing through a second story floor.

[lloydcom]

Its not all that dire, but houses in England are not the same as houses in the USA, I know as I live on both sides of the pond, but when you see cracks on the ceiling it rules out having a MDF built arcade cab as you are asking for trouble

Besides it was as much fun building it as it was getting it up the narrow staircase!