LCD TopGun vs. Guncon

[horseboy]

Ok, Ok, so this might have been discussed before, but I can't read through that 2000 post thread and a search turned up nothing. I had been assuming based on the amount of discussion that the Topgun is the way to go, but I wanted to make sure before I buy.

Is the accuracy on the TopGun better? If so, by how much?

The biggest issue that people appear to have with the Topgun is the fact that you have to stand at a certain distance for it to work right. Is this a big problem?

I guess the most important thing that I want to know is... what do you guys think is the better solution?

Thanks in advance for the input

[Lilwolf]

Yes, it could... it has the ability to have better resolution then your monitor.  Light guns cant... and usually are accurate to a few pixels.

BUT then you have a mapping issue.  With perfect calibration, (on the TG) it needs to map from its resolution to the screen resolution... And perfect resolution isn't really possible. 

TG's also have a bit of a lag.  VERY small lag, but it can be noticable.

TG's also, you have to stand back.  About twice the distance that the LED stands are apart from each other.

I would give them very similar accuracy to possibly a bit less.  Hard to tell because of the distance away.  But with the last pointer being something you can move around, you can get that pretty accurate... good enough for most games.

BUT the REAL advange is the full tracking.  For T2 and games similar, there is no difference.  Heck, for some they are more fun for me then with my T2 guns!  Maybe because the better controls then a mounted gun on a joystick makes the game easier?  I don't know but it is GREAT for these guns.

The other advantage is not needing a CRT.  I just upgraded my PC (not cabinet) machine to dual LCD's and love it... And I still get some good gun gaming going!  I can't wait until I get an overhead projector... I'm SO going to put the LED's behind the screen and cut little wholes for LED's to stick out of.  That will be SO COOl to have a good standup full wall shooting gallery in my house!

[sWampy]

I got an lcdtopgun last week, and some of the games are pretty hard to play 8 feet or whatever back.  I couldn't ever get them to calibrate turned on their sides,  which would reduce the distance you have to be back greatly.   I picked up 5 different used guncon2's last week for an average of $3.50 each from different gamestops/ebs around town, and ordered then scan convertor chip from ultimarc, hopefully it will be here soon, so I can see if I like one of them better.   At $3.50 I'd be willing to take some of them apart and mount them in rifle/shotgun case for games that used shotguns, something I don't want to attempt with $50 lcdtopguns.

[aljupy]

TG's also have a bit of a lag.  VERY small lag, but it can be noticable.

Lag??? I would say It has the same Lag that a Guncon2. Are you talking about the "Lag" that the Laser is faster than the CrossHair/MousePointer?
Wich driver ara you using? Smog

[Fozzy The Bear]

TG's also have a bit of a lag.  VERY small lag, but it can be noticable.

Lag??? I would say It has the same Lag that a Guncon2.

I agree with you.... The topgun has no more noticeable lag than a Guncon2, when it's installed properly.

I would give them very similar accuracy to possibly a bit less

A bit less accurate the guncon2 are you meaning? or viceversa?
In my case accuracy are very close.....

The accuracy of the Topgun is much better than any Guncon2 gun.  They track properly even on dark screens. The Guncon guns can't track at all on dark screens making them more or less useless in some games.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[aljupy]

Thanks for agree with me, Fozzy 

Let´s talk clear.......even with  White screen a Top gun beats a Guncon2.
Some Guncon2 models are Cheap and loose accuracy when pointing to edges of your screen.

LCD TOP GUN..... if well calibrated...it will point where the laser is in each extreme edge of your screen. Not all the Guncon2 models can do it with the same accuracy

So....You see Horseboy. The same LAG with  better accuracy if compared to a GUNCON2......  but.... all the advantages of the LCD TOP GUN. Just Buy it!!!!!! it just cost 15 or 20 bucks more, but they are well paid

Regards.

[Havoc]

  At $3.50 I'd be willing to take some of them apart and mount them in rifle/shotgun case for games that used shotguns

not to hijack but has that been accomplished succesfully? 

[sWampy]

Thanks for agree with me, Fozzy 

Let

[sWampy]

  At $3.50 I'd be willing to take some of them apart and mount them in rifle/shotgun case for games that used shotguns

not to hijack but has that been accomplished succesfully? 

I haven't, but I know people who have done it in the past with dreamcast guns/saturn guns, so it should work with guncon2 guns.  They are just a photo transistor and a lens, if you mount the lens in any tube the same distance, or close to the same distance as the original it should work.

[Lilwolf]

The accuracy I was talking about is more the feel from being so far back.  And that they aren't running the resolution of the screen.  Light guns are usually a few pixels off... But when your closer, those pixels are usually hidden behind the site itself. 

I feel like I can snipe a bit better with a true lightgun because of the distance.  With the TopGuns, I am now using the laser almost every time as a way to aim.

I guess I could turn it off and I'm sure I would adjust.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Why would you wnat to be forced to stand back 6 feet to play a game that was designed to be played with the gun 6" from the screen though? 

Mine work fine at 4 feet back from the screen... on a 21" monitor.... They'll go even closer when I get my new high power LED stands built.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[aljupy]

Why would you wnat to be forced to stand back 6 feet to play a game that was designed to be played with the gun 6" from the screen though? 

Mine work fine at 4 feet back from the screen... on a 21" monitor.... They'll go even closer when I get my new high power LED stands built.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Again, totally agree with Fozzy.
It is not a Pain (At least, for me) to play from 6".  Even you can imagine some trick to put you closer (Maybe puttin the bars closer)....If not, a more powered IR Leds should do the trick.
EMS are going to sell a "brighter" IR Led bars.

On a side note....For LightGun games....do not you think that is better to play from some  distance? It gives also a good point.
In my case, I play exactly from 3 METERS (I do not know it in feets) with my 34" Inch (I do not know it in meters  ) Television.

Anyway, Swampy you are totally Right.......If the distance (about 3 meters for a 34" TV) Is a Downside, go to an expensive Act Labs or Go to a "I need Flash Guncon2". That will be the right way.

[aljupy]

Hello Again:

If we think....it seems we have a big problem with each LightGun.

1-Act Labs: Expensive, poor compatibility (Just Pc), Can not Track.

2-Guncon2: Needs "Flashing screen" or White/light colors to good tracking and accuracy.

3-LCD TOP GUN: Distance is a Downside for much people.

Just Choose the one that suits your need.  And you

[sWampy]

Why would you wnat to be forced to stand back 6 feet to play a game that was designed to be played with the gun 6" from the screen though? 

Mine work fine at 4 feet back from the screen... on a 21" monitor.... They'll go even closer when I get my new high power LED stands built.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Again, totally agree with Fozzy.
It is not a Pain (At least, for me) to play from 6".  Even you can imagine some trick to put you closer (Maybe puttin the bars closer)....If not, a more powered IR Leds should do the trick.
EMS are going to sell a "brighter" IR Led bars.

On a side note....For LightGun games....do not you think that is better to play from some  distance? It gives also a good point.
In my case, I play exactly from 3 METERS (I do not know it in feets) with my 34" Inch (I do not know it in meters  ) Television.

Anyway, Swampy you are totally Right.......If the distance (about 3 meters for a 34" TV) Is a Downside, go to an expensive Act Labs or Go to a "I need Flash Guncon2". That will be the right way.

Well I plan to have both.   LCDtopgun for games like mad dog mccrae where you normally stood a good distance from the screen, and guncon2's  for games like crossbow where you stood right up at the screen.    Reports seem to indicate that they track just fine without flash if you use the gama  tweak in the smog driver.   

I don't think brighter leds will make the guns work closer to the stands, they are for making it work farther back.  To make the guns work closer you need to move the leds closer together or put a wide angle lens on the gun.   The leds sitting in the middle of your screen isn't a good solution, and  I bet some software would have to be changed to make the guns work with a wideangle lens.   The reason you have to be farther back isn't that the leds aren't bright enough, it's that the camera in the gun has to see all 5 sets at the same time to work correctly.  When you get closer to the screen, it can only see 4 or less leds and stops tracking. 

[aljupy]

Well I plan to have both.   LCDtopgun for games like mad dog mccrae where you normally stood a good distance from the screen, and guncon2's  for games like crossbow where you stood right up at the screen

That could be the Best point..... To have Both. This way you can play far (with Topgun) and very close (with guncon) 

Reports seem to indicate that they track just fine without flash if you use the gama  tweak in the smog driver.  

I do not Know if I understood very well, but I have played with a Guncon2 in a PC and in my Ps2, The Screen Flash (or "gamma flashing") Helps a LOT....but it just HELPS, if you want to hear my opinion, a LCD TOP GUN is more accurate IMHO.

I don't think brighter leds will make the guns work closer to the stands, they are for making it work farther back

You are Right, I´m agree with you. But ....what about to putting the bar Leds "pointing to the gun"? In my case, it works.
I have noticed also, that putting the Bar LEDS higher than my TV I can go closer to the TV. 



REGARDS

[Fozzy The Bear]

I don't think brighter leds will make the guns work closer to the stands, they are for making it work farther back.  To make the guns work closer you need to move the leds closer together or put a wide angle lens on the gun. 

Brighter LED's do actually help, although the new set from EMS will not help, because they are actually further apart than the originals.

To solve the distance issues, I'm actually putting together my own LED stands (to be more accurate, they're being built directly into my monitor bezel)  Using high power IR LED's that I've just stripped out of a "House Of The Dead 4" Arcade machine that I'm repairing at work.

The LED's are being placed closer together than on the original EMS stands and also right at the edge of the monitor screen top and bottom, not at the sides. I calculte that I should be able to get , approx  2 feet or less from the monitor.

You're mentioning a wide angle lens on the gun is an interesting idea, and one which I'm currently already experimenting with. At the end of the day it just makes the gun think it's further away than it actually is. So it may well work. The difficulty is that it has to be a pretty good optical lens to work properly (for pretty good read expensive). I'm looking at spare lenses used on SEGA Arcade guns to see if they will work.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[sWampy]

Someone should make a gun that has a camera and some ir led's on it, where you could just put small ir reflectors on the corners of your monitor, or even in a pattern on the monitor.   You might could even use some small ir reflective wire forming a grid/cross across the face of the monitor that would be almost invisible to humans, but the camera could spot/track very well.

[Lilwolf]

Anyone try taking the LED stand apart and putting them closer together to see how close you could get?

IE, reduce the distance between them in 1/2... Then see if you can get them to work?  If it will... Then I wonder if you could get a mirror solution to work.  Get one of those mirrors that allow light to go through it.  put that at a 45% angle... and have the led's behind the mirror so that you can get nice and close.

Anyway, not sure if it would work, but it would be nice to get a TopGun with a foot distance or so...

But if I have to spend any money/time.  I'm just going to get a projector and put it in the back side of the screen. 

[heemid]

Hey Fozzy any updates on the upgraded LEDs, or reducing the distance. Thanks for any info.