Feedback on my Franken-panel?

[arzoo]

Let me guess your first reaction; Seven joysticks, what the hell was he thinking? First let me list my priorities for this panel;

• Classic game oriented! I was in college during the dawn of arcade video games (Asteroids, Pacman, Donkey Kong, Defender, etc.) so those are the games I love. I own a Defender, Stargate, and Berzerk (sold my Jungle King).
• Controls for some of my favorite games; Trackball (Missile Command, Centipede), Spinner (Tron, Tempest), Two Joysticks for each player (Robotron, Smash TV), 49-way Joystick (Sinstar, Food Fight), Trigger Joystick (Tron, Zaxxon), and a customizable 2-way/4-way/8-way restricted Joystick.
• I have two teenage boys so it had to handle 4 player games.
• Button layout for single player classics should allow for left-hand or right-hand play and put the player on center (or close to center) of the monitor.
• Button layout for fighting games (again, this is for my boys).
• Wrist support (I

[arzoo]

I received my first feedback... from my wife. She feels the player 1 and player 2 controls are too close. The space between the player 1 left joystick and player 2 right joystick is 5 inches (center to center). Standing side-by-side to play Smash TV, our arms are touching. Making the panel wider would solve this, but at 40 inches, it's already almost a runway.

[JONTHEBOMB]

I'm in a state of oooooohhhhhs and aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhs looking at your Franken-panel.  The only thing I don't like is where the trackball is located.  It looks like the joysticks in front will be in the way and personally I don't like reaching for a trackball.  Also, I would suggest lowering the buttons just a little between joystick 2 and joystick 5, and the buttons between joystick 1 and joystick 6.  I can't wait to see your Franken-panel complete.

[arzoo]

With the trackball elevated 2 inches above the joysticks and set back, I don't think they will interfere. If necessary, I can raise the second deck another inch. I like your idea about moving the buttons down a bit as long as the wrist support remains adequate. I'm going to build a single player proto-type (starting tomorrow) just to see how the button layout works. If all goes well, I hope to start the main panel in a few weeks.

[Bones]

Firstly, congrats on your design. It is obviously well researched and thought out.

Initially I went down the design path of the dual level CP based on the Supercade design. In my opinion it is one of the most tasteful around....

But you know, I just couldn't make it work even with a similar design as yours. There always seemed to be a compromise between player comfort and that dreaded trackball position. Finally I gave up and just enlarged my control panel.

I am sure you have heard it over & over, but it really is worth the investment in time to mock-up your entire design for testing.

I am interested if you can make it work and wish you good luck, but there does seem to be a lot of controls in a limited amount of space.

Cheers dude,
Bones

[Fat_Trucker]

If you change the button config for P1 and P2 to 4 over 4 instead of 3 over 5 and then keeping the outer Joysticks (P1-1 and P2-2) where they are,  rotate both sets of controls down slightly, (so the 2 sets of controls form a 'V') you should create enough extra space to use it comfortably for 2 player smash TV.

[mark shaker]

My $0.02:

Just use 6 buttons each for players 1 & 2 in the classic 2 X 3 layout.

You may be able to make it a little less deep: Make sure that there  is just enough room in front of the buttons to wrest your palm.

   - Mark

[wrench]

Everyone will have their own opinions and taste on the size and layouts of panels but one thing you might want to consider in my opinion is the trackball position.How far from the screen (monitor) is that going to be when the panel is installed? Mine is about 11 inches from the screen and aligned with a spinner thats 3 inches from the screen.Every once in while on a bowling or golf game a good spin on the trackball will result in hitting the spinner or screen with your hand,Just something to think about.

[arzoo]

If you change the button config for P1 and P2 to 4 over 4 instead of 3 over 5 and then keeping the outer Joysticks (P1-1 and P2-2) where they are,  rotate both sets of controls down slightly, (so the 2 sets of controls form a 'V') you should create enough extra space to use it comfortably for 2 player smash TV.

I've considered changing the button layout or going with 7 buttons instead of 8 to reduce the required space (width). But I like what I have because it works well with the older games like Asteroids. Or I should say, I think it works well, because I've yet to try it out.

[arzoo]

Firstly, congrats on your design. It is obviously well researched and thought out.

Initially I went down the design path of the dual level CP based on the Supercade design. In my opinion it is one of the most tasteful around....

But you know, I just couldn't make it work even with a similar design as yours. There always seemed to be a compromise between player comfort and that dreaded trackball position. Finally I gave up and just enlarged my control panel.

I am sure you have heard it over & over, but it really is worth the investment in time to mock-up your entire design for testing.

I am interested if you can make it work and wish you good luck, but there does seem to be a lot of controls in a limited amount of space.

Cheers dude,
Bones

The dreaded trackball, that really sums it up! I've tried the ball on the bottom deck, on the top deck, in the center, to the side. If I nix the two deck design and bring the ball to the front and center (between the joysticks) then there's more throw room, but the width will have to increase. How wide is too wide? I also found that when I put the ball in the center (like Supercade), the player 1 controls pushed farther too the side, putting the player more off-center for most single player games. One thing I could do is increase the depth of the top deck making the entire panel cantilevered farther from the main cabinet. This will give me more room behind the trackball.

I think you're right, an entire mock-up is what I need to do. Thanks for your feedback!

[Necro]

I never understood these panel types...can you easily play the upper level without being all hunched over/stretching out to grab the controls?  If I had a choice, I'd build one like this because everything is right there and no switching/swapping needed...but that hard to use idea keeps bugging me.

[arzoo]

I never understood these panel types...can you easily play the upper level without being all hunched over/stretching out to grab the controls?  If I had a choice, I'd build one like this because everything is right there and no switching/swapping needed...but that hard to use idea keeps bugging me.

I've read other threads on two deck designs, some people like them, some don't think they work well. When I stand in front of an arcade game with my hands on the controls in a natural position, there's about 8 inches clearance between my body and the front of the cabinet. Using that space for the lower panel, I don't think they'll be any need to hunch over. With my design, the upper panel controls are 12 inches back. Taking Bones advise, I'm going to build a mock-up so we'll see how it works out.

[Necro]

Yeah, let us know how it goes, I'd be interested in how the panel feels when playing something from the 'upper deck' for an extended time (>15-20 minutes).

So, consider that your job.  You HAVE to play one of these games for 30 minutes because science demands an answer. hehe

I love the new smileys.

[arzoo]

IT LIVES!

Well, not really. Nothing is wired yet.

[DrewKaree]

How wide is too wide?

63"

Smaller than that, and you're ok

[kelemvor]

Just out of curiosity, why did you choose the Pyramid layout for buttons instead of one of the other standards like the 2x3 with the lower 7th button or something like that?  I'd think it'd be harder to play certain games because the buttons are layed out strangely.  Unless the end buttons are 7 and 8 and 1-6 are the ones in the middle area...

[arzoo]

Just out of curiosity, why did you choose the Pyramid layout for buttons instead of one of the other standards like the 2x3 with the lower 7th button or something like that?  I'd think it'd be harder to play certain games because the buttons are layed out strangely.  Unless the end buttons are 7 and 8 and 1-6 are the ones in the middle area...

Yes, the end buttons are 7 and 8 and the middle are 1-6. I was thinking that this layout would work well with older games (for some reason I was fixated on Asteroids). But now I'm considering going back to a standard 7 button layout. This will allow me to move the two center joysticks farther apart and I may put two or three additional buttons in the center. For now I'm going to wire up what I have and see how it works; more to determine if the two decks design works.

[ahofle]

Why do you have to have all the asteroids buttons on one player's button group?  It's not like you can play it simultaneously with two players.  You can use turn left and right from the player 2 group, and the other 3 on the player 3 group for example.  At least that's what I've done, and it works perfectly.

[arzoo]

Why do you have to have all the asteroids buttons on one player's button group?  It's not like you can play it simultaneously with two players.  You can use turn left and right from the player 2 group, and the other 3 on the player 3 group for example.  At least that's what I've done, and it works perfectly.

Space Duel!

But you are correct. Aside from that one game, there

[Fat_Trucker]

If you go for 3 over 3 for player 1 and 2 you should have enough room between the two sets to install suitable buttons for things like asteroids.

It also makes a lot more sense for fighting games. I think you will struggle with the current button config, because for games with more than 3 buttons the placement just won't feel 'natural'.

In fact by going down this route you could even move the trackball to the centre position on the lower deck and install your Asteroids setup in the space on the upper deck.

[Bones]

That's the neatest mock-up I have ever seen!

The trackball looks like it would be one hell-of-a reach but that may just be my perception of the size.

[arzoo]

If you go for 3 over 3 for player 1 and 2 you should have enough room between the two sets to install suitable buttons for things like asteroids.

It also makes a lot more sense for fighting games. I think you will struggle with the current button config, because for games with more than 3 buttons the placement just won't feel 'natural'.

In fact by going down this route you could even move the trackball to the centre position on the lower deck and install your Asteroids setup in the space on the upper deck.

That

[Fat_Trucker]

You could build out slightly. Just a rounded section coming out another 6 inches to house the trackball. Would also nicely separate the two sides of the lower deck.

[arzoo]

That's the neatest mock-up I have ever seen!

The trackball looks like it would be one hell-of-a reach but that may just be my perception of the size.

The track ball is 12 inches on center from the leading edge of the lower deck. I

[Flinkly]

ah, the utility and comfort of switchable panels.   



of course, i haven't made a single one of my switchable panels, but i'm sure they are nice (i have built my cabinet, just haven't gotten to controls cause they are last).

[ahofle]

Let us know how it works out.  I am definitely envious of your layout being able to handle 2 player smash tv and total carnage.

[trog_4269]

If this is off topic and shjould be a new thread please let me know.  I am going to build a quad cab and I was thinking about using P3/P1 and P2/P4 controls for games like Smash TV.  Has anyone tried this setup?   I figured I would just get used to having 1 of the 2 joysticks at a 45 degree angle. 

Is there possably a program out there that could translate diagnols joystick movements into up/down/left/right for one of the joysticks so they would function in the same general direction?

[markrvp]

It can be mapped by game in MAME.  Ask NoOne=NBA=   He is the one who originally did it.  Or you can do a search for "diagonal" by user:  IntruderAlert    He setup a 4p panel using NoOne=NBA='s mappings.

[trog_4269]

I will do that.  Thank you.

[arzoo]

Here

[markrvp]

I think that looks really nice.  The Supercade cabinet is what inspired me to build a cabinet (although I stayed with a single level CP).  The only suggestion I would make, which has probably already been made, is to make your monitor lean way back so you won't jam your fingers into it when playing games like Golden Tee Golf, World Class Bowling, or Shuuz.

[arzoo]

I modified my test panel by moving the spinner to the far left and added a new button closer to the trackball. Although the buttons do not represent the triangle layout I plan on using, they do give me a feel for the overall placement. After some play testing, I

[Havok]

Looks great, but the only change I would make is to move the player 1 and 2 seven button cluster down a bit - a more "authentic" placement would be to have the centerline of the joystick extend outward to intersect in between the top three and bottom three buttons.  Kind of like this:

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Of course, the only problem may be wrist support, so like everyone is saying - do a mockup. Cardboard is your friend...