TV: S-video vs. Component

[Steve Kaz]

I've read this whole thread and i'm confused.  It doesn't seem like anyone answered some of the other simple questions, so i figured i'd ask again:

I've got a 27" Magnavok non-HDTV.  I need to buy a video card for the free computer that i just picked up (PIII with Windows 98 is all i know).

If i buy the ATI 8500 and the adapter, then i just run component cables to the back of the TV (that does have component in)?  I gather i have to get Powerstrip and click the "Arcade betting" but am wondering if i'd be lost with getting the thing to work properly.

FWIW, my TV has a S-video in also and i'm almost confused enough to take that "safe" route, but i want to get the component up and running if that's the best.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[IntruderAlert]

I'd like to look at something before commenting
What model number is your TV?

[Steve Kaz]

It's this one.  Thanks alot man.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Magnavox-27-TV-27MS3404-/sem/rpsm/oid/86035/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

[Steve Kaz]

I'm also having trouble finding the 8500 at retailers, so i'd probably have to go with a different ATI card.

[IntruderAlert]

I don't see the 9200 on the list of compatible cards for the component adapters:
http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html#1

That's not saying it won't work.

Keep in mind that ATI makes different adapters for different cards so you should buy accordingly

Why not try the component route and I'm sure everyone here will be glad to help
and if it just doesn't work out for whatever reason you can always use the svideo connection and sell or trade your adapter.

[Veinman]

Does that Magnavox model turn back on once power is restored, as well as go back to the last used input?

[Steve Kaz]

I don't see the 9200 on the list of compatible cards for the component adapters:
http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html#1

That's not saying it won't work.

Keep in mind that ATI makes different adapters for different cards so you should buy accordingly

Why not try the component route and I'm sure everyone here will be glad to help
and if it just doesn't work out for whatever reason you can always use the svideo connection and sell or trade your adapter.

i noticed that after i posted it.  That card was about the only reasonable priced ATI that i saw on my quick search.  I'll keep looking (and go the ebay route this time).  There's a "Microcenter" by my house that i want to check out also.

So there are a bunch of different component adapters?  Once i get the card, i might need more help with getting the right adapter.

FWIW, that's why i bought that TV, if i'm too dumb to get component to work, S-Video is another option.

Does that Magnavox model turn back on once power is restored, as well as go back to the last used input?

The Salesman told me that it did, but i don't have much faith in salesmen.  I've had it sitting in the original box in my living room for a few weeks while i finish the cab and figure out the control panel, but i'll fire it up and check for you.

[omar]

Here's my story:

I just finished my cab. I bought the 27" Toshiba 27A34(I believe-$214). It has both S-Video and Component.  It is very difficult to find a inexpensive tv 25"-27" with component. I bought an ATI 9600(Sapphire brand) for $80 and the component adapter for $29.

I really wanted a true arcade monitor, but those things aren't cheap--I sort of started this project without asking the wife, so I'm trying to limit how much I spend. I started with the s-video connection while waiting for my ATI adapter to come in. The picture was very good--a little color bleed but not bad.

Once my ATI adapter came in I changed to component. OMG! What a difference! No color bleed. The picture is very sharp compared to s-video. The colors are are outstanding. In fact, the picture was so good, I had to run and tell my wife, but she could've cared less. I am definately happy with this combination. Be aware that using the component adapter introduces some overscan(about 5 percent). From what I've read, it varies depending on the TV and/or Output(480i,480p,720p,1080i). Obviously my TV can only do 480i.

If I had to choose this combo or a real arcade monitor, I would choose the tv combination. I just need to do a little tweaking to see if I can minimize the overscan. Overall, I am VERY pleased. 

[Scoobie]

Omar,
Please share the steps you take getting the overscan down.

[Steve Kaz]

Just curious, where did you get the Sapphire card from?

[omar]

I will definately post my results with the overscan issue.

I live in San Diego and I get the free computer mag called computorEdge. I got the card here locally from a place called MyPCParts in Clairemont Mesa. Actually I only paid $70 for the card. They have the ATI9600 128MB now for $66.95.

Looking through the magazine, I see they have a website: www.mypcparts.com

I haven't viewed their site, but the prices might match their weekly ad. Oh, if you don't have the ATI component adapter, get it from s-video.com. The shipping on ATIs website is just too expensive.

[Steve Kaz]

Here's two that i found at CompUSA (as i'm checking locally first in case i have to take it back)

Which would you guys prefer?  I believe that they are both on ATI's list for the component adapter:

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=50357982&pfp=BROWSE

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=311024&pfp=BROWSE

[omar]

Unless you need all of the features of the AIW I would just get the 9600SE(The exact same on I have, except it's not 'made' by ATI). My .02 cents

[Steve Kaz]

For some reason, the 9600SE doesn't mention the component adapter like the All in Wonder 9600 does:

Drive an HDTV-ready Television using the optional VGA->YPrPb adapter available from ati.com

I also just noticed that the specs for the 9600 don't mention Windows 98.  The only other version that i own is XP and that might be too much for the machine.  Thoughts?

[omar]

OVERSCAN ISSUE FIXED!!!

Be aware that using the component adapter introduces some overscan(about 5 percent). From what I've read, it varies depending on the TV and/or Output(480i,480p,720p,1080i). Obviously my TV can only do 480i.

Okay, here's what I did to fix it--YMMV. I went into the service menu of my tv(Toshiba 27a34). Decreased the Height (by 3) and Width (by1 ).

[arcadefan2005]

HOW did you do that?

I have a Toshiba 27A34, and I can't figure out how to change the H size or V size. Nor can I figure out how to mess with corner geometry (pincushion) or any of the other advanced settings.

I've read the entire manual for the TV, and I've looked through all of the menues on the TV, but to no avail.

What steps did you take exactly to modify these settings?

Thanks!

[Steve Kaz]

I couldn't find that Toshiba model anywhere i looked.  Now i'm starting to get jealous 

i hope the Magnavox works out too...

[omar]

BTW, I found the TOshiba at Frys Electronics. Best Buy had it too. They told me that model is discontinued, the next model has speakers on the side (which is bad for me because my internal cab dimensions is 26"). So I was forced to buy it.

To get to the service menu (Toshiba 27a34):

1. On the TV, set the volume to zero.
2. On the TV hold the volume down and press '9' on the remote.
3. You should now see 'OSD' on the screen and vertical dashes on the left and right.


Use Channel Up/Channel Down to cycle through the different settings.
Use Left/Right(I'm doing this from memory. I don't have a remote at the moment--I forgot what left/right is) to change the value. Press 'enter' on the remote to save settings.

Disclaimer:
Make sure to write down your settings before you change anything (I didn't, but it's common practice)

[Veinman]

Discontinued? I had better get mine while I can. I was hoping to wait a bit.

[omar]

I was hoping to wait a bit too,  but I didn't want to take any chances;this tv is perfect for this type of project. At least having the TV staring at me everyday forced me to work a little faster to get my cab built. Unfortunately I'm always on the lookout for another one in case I want to build another cab.

[arcadefan2005]

BTW, I found the TOshiba at Frys Electronics. Best Buy had it too. They told me that model is discontinued, the next model has speakers on the side (which is bad for me because my internal cab dimensions is 26"). So I was forced to buy it.

To get to the service menu (Toshiba 27a34):

1. On the TV, set the volume to zero.
2. On the TV hold the volume down and press '9' on the remote.
3. You should now see 'OSD' on the screen and vertical dashes on the left and right.


Use Channel Up/Channel Down to cycle through the different settings.
Use Left/Right(I'm doing this from memory. I don't have a remote at the moment--I forgot what left/right is) to change the value. Press 'enter' on the remote to save settings.

Disclaimer:
Make sure to write down your settings before you change anything (I didn't, but it's common practice)

Okay, that worked. But it took me a minute to figure out that I had to hold the 9 button for a few seconds.

Thanks for the help! How did you find out how to do that?

The only issues that I'm seeing with my TV are:

1) When it's in Windows 2000 with a blue background, there are a couple of spots to the right where it looks dark or burnt. But under MAME I don't notice it. Is that some kind of burn in or something?

2) Screen looks to be tilted/slanted to the right, just slightly. For example, when I'm in Windows, if I look at the toolbar at the bottom, I can see more blackspace under the left side than the right. So, it's off by a few millimeters. Not THAT noticeable, but if you know it's there it's a little annoying. I've tried fooling with trapezoid, etc, but to no avail.

Any thoughts on those 2 things?

BTW, I'm using the XP Pro adapter plugged into my cheap VGA card.

Thanks for the help/advice.

[Scoobie]

For those with this Toshiba TV, omar is the man!  With these setting tweaks on the set, there is no need to mess with Tweak UI, Powerstrip, etc.

I too have slightly more black on the left bottom of my screen, but then I also had it after tweaking the thing with my ATI dongle and software...so I'm used to it.  The trapazoid and other settings don't seem to change this on my set either.

Thanks again for the tip!!

[omar]

Thanks for the help! How did you find out how to do that?

I Just googled: Toshiba 27a service menu

The only issues that I'm seeing with my TV are:

1) When it's in Windows 2000 with a blue background, there are a couple of spots to the right where it looks dark or burnt. But under MAME I don't notice it. Is that some kind of burn in or something?

2) Screen looks to be tilted/slanted to the right, just slightly. For example, when I'm in Windows, if I look at the toolbar at the bottom, I can see more blackspace under the left side than the right. So, it's off by a few millimeters. Not THAT noticeable, but if you know it's there it's a little annoying. I've tried fooling with trapezoid, etc, but to no avail.

Any thoughts on those 2 things?

My windows desktop doesn't look perfect either. Since I don't use the windows desktop for anything(I use the mamewah frontend), I didn't care. I'd rather have my games looking the way they should instead of windows.

[arcadefan2005]

Cool,

Thanks again for the info, Omar.

And Scoobie, it's nice to know that it's not just my TV. It's so slight though, that it's not really a big deal. Maybe they all do that a little bit. BTW, I was reading that maybe some of that tilt is caused by interference? To the right of my TV, I have: my XP Pro adapter, a 17" FP monitor, a cable modem, and a computer. So, with those 4 things, there's gotta be some interference, I would think.

[Veinman]

I checked with Best Buy tonight. They aren't selling the Toshiba 27A34 anymore. Ordering one online from them is not an option for me since they wanted $55 for shipping.

It's almost impossible to find a 27" tv with component video that also has the speakers on the bottom. Then add the requirements of coming on after power restore, and returning to the last input, and the choices are even slimmer. I now don't know what model to get.

[omar]

Exactly. As soon as I heard the were being discountinued, I ran out and bought one ASAP. They'e becomming very hard to find(not online). I would check Sears if you're still looking. I didn't see one in their online store, but they had it in their physical storefront.

[Steve Kaz]

I'm having a hell of a time finding locally a video card that i can use to try the component hookup.  The best that i could find was the AIW 9600 card for $130.
I don't really need all the AIW functions at all, but that's the cheapest card that i can find around.

[arcadefan2005]

Have you thought about the XP Pro external adapter? It converts VGA to Component. So it should work with any VGA card (in case you already have a card in your machine...even a cheapo card).

I got mine for ~$90 at Radio Shack. But you can probably get them cheaper online.

Not sure if the ATI card (with dongle) looks any better than using a cheapo card with the XP Pro. But if you're just running MAME games, then I don't think the video card really matters.

[Steve Kaz]

Are you talking about the external scan converters that people talked about earlier in the thread and didn't like?

[arcadefan2005]

Are you talking about the external scan converters that people talked about earlier in the thread and didn't like?

It has been a few weeks since I've read this entire thread. However,....

I'm pretty sure that you're correct in that they've been mentioned in this thread.

But I don't recall reading much (if anything) negative about them. What were the negatives?

I happen to own one, and I don't really have any complaints, so far. Pricewise, it's about the same as (or less than....in some cases) the ATI/dongle solution. As far as image quality, I don't have the ATI/dongle, so I couldn't say. I haven't seen any comparisons. As for setup, it doesn't get any easier than what I have...just hook up all of the cables...and overscan can be fixed with the XP Pro. Whereas, with the ATI/dongle, I believe you need to install that Powerstrip (?) software. However, if you have a TV that lets you adjust HSCAN and VSCAN (like the Toshiba 27A34, for example), you may not need the Powerstrip software.

BTW, I'm NOT saying that one's better than the other. I'm just throwing out another option for you, since an affordable ATI card seems hard to find.

Again, I didn't think that the feedback was negative. All I remember was someone pointing out the XP Pro, and getting ignored...then finally someone saying that it was too pricey or something. But that's all from memory. I'm too lazy to go back and read the whole thread again.

[Brewser]

I purchased the Sapphire ATI 9600 Atlantis card and the DVI adaptor. Overall I was not very impressed. The flicker is pretty bad and the floating dots are large and very distracting in component. I then tried the S-Video output on the card, the flicker was lower, but the dots were as bad.
I then went out and bought an ATI 9550 since I can't find a made by ATI 9600. I hooked this up to my Toshiba 27A34 with component and the flicker is still pretty bad even in the games. There is less flicker in the games but it is annoying. The dots are not present with the ATI 9550.
I then hooked up the 9550 with S-Video. The flicker is almost a non-issue and there are no large floating dots on the screen. Overall this seems to be the best setup as far as middle ground and is for the most part, acceptable for all games.
If anyone could come up with a list of their setup with both the ATI component and the Toshiba 27A34 that they are happy with, that would be outstanding.
This lis should consist of:
1. Mame settings via the INI file.
2. The ATI Windows XP desktop settings with res. and such.
3. The adjustments and what number level they are at now on the Toshiba 27A34. This would include the contrast, brightness, ect.
4. The Toshiba 27A34 service menu number settings for each item adjusted. I have played around with the corner sizing, V-Size, H-Size, V-Shift, & H-Phase to center the image on the monitor for full screen. Any other settings would be great.

From just playing around I can't see how component output could be acceptable with all the flicker. For example - Asteroids, when the asteroids are foating, parts of the astroid go blank. Puckman- the whole maze flickers pretty bad. I must be missing something. I now have $260 wrapped up in just video cards and the adaptor, about 1/2 way to the cost of an actual arcade monitor.
Please lets try and help everyone out with examples of how you have your configuration setup.
Thanks to everyone on this.

[Steve Kaz]

I finally hooked up my ATI9600XT via monster S-video cable to the Magnavox TV that i bought and got it to a point where i was really impressed and surprised at how good it looked.  I could read small type in the Windows environment and everything. 

The TV itself had settings for horizontal and vertical adjustment, aspect ratios and such.  I set them up, then played with the settings on the ATI card.  I don't recall where, but there was a way to adjust the flicker.

[Brewser]

Now that I have had a chance to really play games with my ATI9550 and the Toshiba 27A34 with S-Video I have noticed one thing that bugs me. The screen has too large of gaps between pixels. The lines that the dots produces can be hard on the eyes after a few minutes. The colors can seem a little soft or fuzzy at most times. I have tried to fix the saturation, contrast, and sharpness but it doesn't seem to help.
Does the arcade monitor have the same issues? I realize the larger the screen the larger the distance between the pixels but I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue, but it is.
Why does this have to be so hard? I just want it to look great, but there is something I am missing.
Any help would be great.

[Brewser]

OK I had enough with the TV and trying to get it to look good. I finally broke down and just purchased a Betson 27" Arcade monitor and ArcadeVGA card from Ultrimarc. This better rock!!!!
I figured what is the point of putting together a whole cab if the display sucks. Isn't this the point in putting together a cab in the first place?
Now I just have to wait a few weeks for delivery. sigh!!

[Veinman]

Does anyone know of a step by step tutorial on getting the ATi component video adapter to work well connected to a tv? My video card is a Radeon 9800 Pro.

Every time I try it, windows trys to enter a mode that the tv can't handle, and I can't see anything of course to undo it.

I started out with only the 480i dip switch enabled, but it didn't really seem to matter much.

[Skadar]

Figured I would dredge up this monster thread because I've had recent success with it which I've documented in the following post.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43408.0

I've also included the coveted s-video to component comparison screenshots!