720 stick alternative?

[Kremmit]

I already posted this in the GP-Wiz 49 thread, but just in case anybody's stopped reading that 11-page monster, here's how I got a Williams 49-way stick to play and feel like an original 720 stick:

First thing I did was to take my beat-up Williams 49-way stick apart.  I dismounted the ball pivot assembly, took it apart, and soaked those parts in gasoline.  While the soaking was happening, I cleaned the plastic sliders, and lubed them with Lithium Grease.  Then I went back to the pivot parts, and scrubbed them down with a toothbrush.  I re-lubed the pivot assembly, and put the whole thing back together, but without the spider.  Then I remounted the stick.  I was very pleased with the feel- the stick spun freely in a circle, and I'm sure with a new spider it would feel and play like new.  Without the spider, it seems to naturally want to stay at the outside of the circle, rather than bounce back and forth through the middle.  A little resistance like that provided by the chain assembly on a real 720 stick would be nice, but otherwise, it feels a lot like a real one.  The handle seems a little shorter than I remember, but then again, my 49-way is mounted under 3/4 inches of plywood, so there's room for improvement there.  The angle is probably a little more upright, too, but that doesn't seem to matter much.  I was pretty happy with the feel, mechanically, so on to the software:

I fired up MAME 0.90, and tried 720.  I had to enable joystick support for the game, and remap the controls to the stick's analog axes.  The 16-way digital restriction built in to the GP-Wiz49 worked, but not so well.  Raw49 mode worked better.  In fact, it worked pretty darn well!  The skater rotated smoothly, and always went in the direction the stick was pointing.  I've tried to play this game in MAME with 8-ways, keyboard, mouse, PC analog joystick, etc, and never could make it play worth a darn.  With this setup, I was able to get on the half pipe and score some 700 point tricks on the first real game of 720 I've played in years- and I'm sure I'll be able to do better once I get some practice in.  I'm certainly happy with it, and it's how I'll be playing 720 from here on out.

So, to sum up-

    * 16-way DRS is a flop, and can be replaced with something else if you want, Randy (sorry)   
    * A beat-up Williams 49 way can be restored with a little cleaning, lube, and a new spider   
    * 720 plays well with a spider-less Williams 49-way   

[Hoagie_one]

AWESOME NEWS FOR 720 FANS.

[Flinkly]

just to cover my bases, i'm interested in more detail of the restoration of your stick.  i've got a stick that plays alright, and has a nice spider, but it seems a bit rusty and gritty around that ball joint.  i already took it abart once because someone had put it together wrong, so i've got that under control too. 

i guess the part i want to make sure about is the gas soaking and the lubing.  did the gas do well and did you wash it up afterwards to rid it of smell?  and is that grease the best kind to use in a situation like this?  thanks for the info and clarification.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I usually soak in denatured alcohol, because the odor dissipates quicker than gas.
I wouldn't use either in an enclosed area, but the alcohol smell goes away as it flashes off.
Gas has some heavier components in it that like to hang around even after it flashes off.

Wadding compound is good for polishing stuff, but doesn't do well for heavy rust removal.

White Lith is the grease of choice for light moving parts like this because it doesn't keep stuff from moving like heavier grease will.

For heavier stuff (steering shafts, etc...) I use wheel bearing grease because it "stays" better.

[Will]

Since Im kind of a newb when It come to altering joysticks could you please provide a step by step pictured tutorial if possible.Im a big 720 fan and have not been able to play this game correctyl for about a decade.Not sure the last time I saw a 720 in a arcade but its been a while.I desperately want a real 720 joystick or something that feels like one.If you could provide a more detailed how to,Im sure alot of 720 fans would be in heavan.Camt blame for asking right?

[Flinkly]

if i read the post right, you just get a williams 49 way joystick and remove the spider on the bottom.  other than that, he just renewed his joystick with a little TLC.  i'm sure you could do more to make itmore like a joystick, like attach a restrictor plate to the bottom that kept the joystick to the outer area...but you'd have to make that yourself. 

maybe we should talk to 1up about this since he's diving into custom joystick parts for games without controllers, or cheap ones.

[Lilwolf]

As someone with a real 720 controller.

One of the items that makes it "real" is the disk that only allows it to be pointing at an edge.   

I always thought that an analog controller hacked with a ball top and the proper disk would be the closest.  But if the controls in the 49 way are close enough..  It might make for a great 720 at hock because of the high pivot point. 

I would have tried it... but my stick just got sent out for 1nspection

[Flinkly]

well what i was thinking of was to put a thick plastic disk on the bottom of a sinistar stick without the spyder.  you'd have to make a crazy connector though since you'd have to come down below the stick and then back up, but you shouldn't have to go too much further than the original joystick depth since the joystick is at it's extreme angle, thus making it a bit shorter on bottom.  i'd use thick plastic too since you wouldn't want to tear up your joystick shaft on a metal plate from all those circular motions.

dangit, now i've got to get another williams 49-way.  and to think i was going to sell one of mine (i've got three now).

[Kremmit]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this sooner.  Real Life^tm, you know.

Posted by: Flinkly      Posted on: March 31, 2005, 03:25:54 PM
i guess the part i want to make sure about is the gas soaking and the lubing.  did the gas do well and did you wash it up afterwards to rid it of smell?  and is that grease the best kind to use in a situation like this?

Gas does fine, so would the Alcohol No_One=NBA mentioned, or turpentine, or paint thinner.  Whatever solvent you have will be fine, it's not like it's going to eat the metal or anything.  I used gas because there was a gas can sitting right there, and I'd have had to go to the store for anything else.  Btu gas is really kind of bad for you, I'll probably grow a tumor or something now.  Definately wash up after using gas.  I like the lithium grease, especially on plastic parts, but anything thick enough to be "grease" instead of "oil" would probably do the job.

Posted by: Will      Posted on: March 31, 2005, 04:35:54 PM

Since Im kind of a newb when It come to altering joysticks could you please provide a step by step pictured tutorial if possible.

I'm going to do the other stick soon, when I do, I'll take some pictures.

Posted by: Lilwolf      Posted on: Yesterday at 11:37:14 AM

As someone with a real 720 controller.

One of the items that makes it "real" is the disk that only allows it to be pointing at an edge.   

I always thought that an analog controller hacked with a ball top and the proper disk would be the closest.  But if the controls in the 49 way are close enough..  It might make for a great 720 at hock because of the high pivot point.

Agreed, actual physical restriction to keep the stick at the outside edge would be best.  I've been working on the easiest way to do this- if I ever get around to it, I'll post that as well.  But like you said, that high ball pivot  helps- the stick seems to want to stay to the outside of it's own accord. 

An analog stick might be a little more accurate, but I dunnoif it would ever matter in real game play- If my info is correct, the skater in 720 only points 16 directions anyway- a 49-way in raw49 mode points 24 different directions, more than enough.  True, this means that some directions are weighted a little heavier than others, but does that really matter in this game?  One spin of the stick still equals one rotation of the skater, so the spin tricks will still work the same.  And when you're skating in a specific direction, how much difference does it make to your hand when you're talking about fractions of 1/16th of a circle?

I'm not saying it's an absoultely perfect replacement for a real 720 stick, but how many of us are ever going to have one of those?

[redcoats]

Well I have a real 720 machine, and if you guys need any pictures of the joystick I can take them for you. I actually have two joysticks. I bought a parted out 720.

[Lilwolf]

I have both controllers... But the 49 way is out... And my 720 was taken apart a bit ago.. Need to put it on another control panel... Been jonzn to do it for a bit... But the plans for it I want to do it right this time (last time I had to readjust it pretty ofthen and the optics where being held on with non-rigid metal.

The real test will probably be in the slalum course.  But finding ANY solution that is decent will be good for the masses.   Oscar looked at the 720 controller to see how feasable it was to build a repo... The answer was a big no.

btw, the restrictor on the top has one little feature that is pretty much required.  Its not exact.  It moves back/forth by 1/8 inch.  I think if it WAS exact... you wouldn't be able to do any quick turns.  So if looking at a bottom solution you would probably need to give it that slack.  You might be able to get something on the bottom pretty easy.... but getting one on top should be very very easy.

[Xiaou2]

 Heya Kremmit,

 just a note about one of your comments...

  While the skater may show only 16 direction sprites... the game may still have many more  'vectors' for the character to travel in.

   Sometimes they did this to save on memmory... as really, a  2 degree change wouldnt be a very visible change to the character...   

 However... a  2 degree vector change, would be like 2 inches of travel by the end of a screen worth or movment.  So indeed, the higher the accuracy, the more control you will ultimately have.
 

[RandyT]

  While the skater may show only 16 direction sprites... the game may still have many more  'vectors' for the character to travel in.

   Sometimes they did this to save on memmory... as really, a  2 degree change wouldnt be a very visible change to the character...   

 However... a  2 degree vector change, would be like 2 inches of travel by the end of a screen worth or movment.  So indeed, the higher the accuracy, the more control you will ultimately have.
 

Please provide an example of a game that does this. Preferably one where you aren't "floating" in space ala Asteroids. 

BTW, 720 isn't one of them.


From a game design standpoint, this would be a most bizarre dynamic to implement as the player would never be able to tell which exact direction he/she were to move in if the on-screen character didn't indicate it explicitly.

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

 I believe you are correct in that 720 does not use multiple vectors.   However, it could  also be that the driver is not correct.  I do not have an older version to test - since they have changed it recently to use analog stick.
 
 However, you said it yourself.   Asteroids does in fact do this, and it has nothing to do with outerspace.   It also is very controlable... not confusing, as there are enough frames to let you know approximately which direction you are heading.   The vectors are small, so it dosnt look radically odd... and they only are noticable if you compare the end results after about a screen worth of travel. 

 I believe this system was also used in low resolution systems like atari 2600... where vectors are used instead of pixils because there simply wasnt enough resolution for smoothness of playability and control.   It was also used as a memmory saving technique.   

  I think it would actually have worked better to use more vectors for 720.. as it would be less clunky feeling.
 

[RandyT]

 However, you said it yourself.   Asteroids does in fact do this, and it has nothing to do with outerspace.   It also is very controlable... not confusing, as there are enough frames to let you know approximately which direction you are heading.   The vectors are small, so it dosnt look radically odd... and they only are noticable if you compare the end results after about a screen worth of travel. 

IMHO, your supposition is still flawed.

This is an "apples to oranges" comparison, which is why I asked for different one.  Asteroids is a vector game, and as such, does not have the same limitations as a game like 720.  The spaceship is "drawn" by the code and can, in theory, have an unlimited number of rotated representations.  In a rasterized version of this game, like MAME's, the ship is still drawn, but the image is approximated based on the resolution of the curent screen mode.

In a raster game like 720, each view is hand drawn, and the one that is "plugged in" depends on the direction the player is, or plans on, moving in.

Now, to go back to your statement, there is a difference between movement based on residual inertia, as in Asterioids, and simply moving a player in a direction, as indicated by the number of directions he/it can face in.  Even in Asteroids, the ship applies thrust in the exact direction it is currently facing.  Inertia takes over from there, but that has nothing to do with the direction the force/movement is applied in.

I believe this system was also used in low resolution systems like atari 2600... where vectors are used instead of pixils because there simply wasnt enough resolution for smoothness of playability and control.   It was also used as a memmory saving technique.   

I think you could use a trip down memory lane .  The 2600 version of Asteroids would never be able to deal with movement utilizing sub-pixel precision (which is what you are talking about.)    In fact, the actual asteroids were so "stupid" (read: controlled by an underpowered processor) they could only move in primarily vertical directions, at least until they were very small...then a couple moved at a perfect 1-up 1-over direction..  Memory was the least of it's problems.

In any case, if you take a close look at that game, you'll see that there are 16 unique ship images.  If you fly around, you'l find that you are always drifting exactly in one of those 16 primary directions.


Any other examples?

RandyT

[Paul Olson]

I just got one of those springback sticks (for baseball games) on ebay.  It looks like it would make a great 720 stick if you removed the springs.  Has anyone tried this?  I'm still too far away from having a working modular panel to test it out right now.

Paul

[Xiaou2]

 Paul,

  It might work ok for sinistar if you used a modifed centering  spider...
(but that shaft may not hold up cause its fairly thin)

  But for 720... it might not be such a good choice.

  Pots are friction based..and wear with time.   Esp in a game like 720 where youd need the full range of motion frequently - as youd be rolling it arround in large circles really fast.

  In this case, an optical 49 way joystick is better suited to this. 

 Of course,  it would be nice if mame emulated the centering wheel that 720 used... as then modified spinners could be used instead.

  Ohh, and also,  most analog joys have a square restrictor... so that would also be a problem, without modification.  Not sure how mame handles the turns - IE:  How far into the corners one needs to make a direction change... as that too could be an issue for a standard  analog joy.

 

[Kremmit]

 Paul,

  It might work ok for sinistar if you used a modifed centering  spider...
(but that shaft may not hold up cause its fairly thin)

  But for 720... it might not be such a good choice.

  Pots are friction based..and wear with time.   Esp in a game like 720 where youd need the full range of motion frequently - as youd be rolling it arround in large circles really fast.

  In this case, an optical 49 way joystick is better suited to this. 

 Of course,  it would be nice if mame emulated the centering wheel that 720 used... as then modified spinners could be used instead.

  Ohh, and also,  most analog joys have a square restrictor... so that would also be a problem, without modification.  Not sure how mame handles the turns - IE:  How far into the corners one needs to make a direction change... as that too could be an issue for a standard  analog joy.

Mame Analog+ emulates the calibration wheel on the real 720 joystick.

Those baseball "flicker" sticks have a round restrictor.