Comparing Daytona USA 2 FFB Motor to Sim Racing Direct Drive Motors

[andrewaugust93]

So recently I got around to emulating DUSA2 using Supermodel on my new Simagic Alpha Mini 10nm wheel.

And I immediately got curious about the high quality of FFB in this old 1998 game that I grew up with. I've always loved DUSA2 and wanted to know everything about it.

I dug around and found that it was using a 500W servo motor for the FFB. And I got very curious because that seemed like a serious piece of kit but it was such a small unit. I did not remember the FFB being so stiff when I was playing it as a child, but it was certainly stronger than any arcade game I've played before and since.

I immediately started to get curious. Being a non-expert in the field of electronics and motors, here's my question.

Compared to a modern FFB direct drive wheel that is around 10nm, how would the servo motor in the DUSA2 machines compare in terms of NM of output directly from the motor and after the power is transferred by the belt and pulley system.

[isamu]

Very good first post and welcome to the forums.

Yes, it's a great question as I too, have always been curious as to what kind of wheel/motor Sega uses in their cabs so thanks for sharing that info.

It's been ages, but I vaguely remember the FFB on the Daytona 2 cab being quite strong and it felt good. I suspect arcade operators had their cab settings turned up to the max. However, I have zero doubt the current crop of DD wheels, particularly anything 15NM and over, would surpass those old belt drive Sega cab wheels not only in strength, but *ESPECIALLY* in feel and overall performance.

I can tell you first hand, that my Bodnar wheel is 26nm and I have never....EVER needed to turn it up beyond 50% strength. I accidentally had it at 75% one time and no joke, I literally nearly snapped my wrist! DD wheels are absolute monsters.

Daytona 2 feels absolutely sublime on my wheel, but I remain curious, as to whether or not there is supposed to be any force feedback effect when rubbing/banging against other cars. Does anyone know if the real arcade cab did this? Because in Supermodel you don't feel it.

[buttersoft]

Have you tried both native FFB in supermodel and Boom's FFB plugin? I find those are quite different for SCUD race, but haven't played around with Daytona 2

[Fursphere]

A 500watt stepper motor is rated by its max consumption of energy.  Not sure what Sega actually ran them at. My 8nm Fanatec wheels are way too much for my kids at 100% FFB strength (the manual actually warns against letting kids use the thing at full power).  The power supply is rated at 24v, 7.5A 180 watts output.  I usually setup a profile that's around 50% or less FFB strength for them.  I've seen posts about folks snapping wrists with the big 20 NM DD1/DD2 setup.

Given that Sega was probably not in the business of potentially opening themselves up to personal injury lawsuits, I'm going to guess they ran those 500watt servo motors at significantly less than they were capable of.  I actually have two of them in the garage (if you want pictures or anything, just ask)  No markings on them to speak of, and appear to be about the same size as the motor in the Fanatec CSL DD. 

They are setup with a belt drive and two pulley sizes, so there is some gearing going on.  Smaller pulley on the steering wheel shaft. 

[isamu]

Have you tried both native FFB in supermodel and Boom's FFB plugin? I find those are quite different for SCUD race, but haven't played around with Daytona 2

I used to play Daytona 2 and Scud Race quite a lot, way before Boomslang came out with his plugin. But even then, I seem to recall there being no force feedback effect in Daytona 2 when colliding or rubbing against opponent cars. Sometimes there would be an effect, but most of the time there would not. Hopefully someone here can verify whether or not Sega programmed the game to deliver FFB effects when colliding/rubbing other cars in Daytona 2.

As for Scud, the default FFB in Supermodel was good, but it had a major problem....it was buggy and would result in the ffb sometimes delivering a rumble effect to the wheel that would remain permanent once you drive over the grass, among other weird things. Was very glad when Boom's plugin came out because it doesn't suffer from this issue. Still, out of curiosity, I'm gonna try and play the two games with the default ffb from Supermodel because it's been ages and I'd like to see what it feels like after all these years.

[isamu]

A 500watt stepper motor is rated by its max consumption of energy.  Not sure what Sega actually ran them at. My 8nm Fanatec wheels are way too much for my kids at 100% FFB strength (the manual actually warns against letting kids use the thing at full power).  The power supply is rated at 24v, 7.5A 180 watts output.  I usually setup a profile that's around 50% or less FFB strength for them.  I've seen posts about folks snapping wrists with the big 20 NM DD1/DD2 setup.

Given that Sega was probably not in the business of potentially opening themselves up to personal injury lawsuits, I'm going to guess they ran those 500watt servo motors at significantly less than they were capable of.  I actually have two of them in the garage (if you want pictures or anything, just ask)  No markings on them to speak of, and appear to be about the same size as the motor in the Fanatec CSL DD. 

They are setup with a belt drive and two pulley sizes, so there is some gearing going on.  Smaller pulley on the steering wheel shaft.

Good post! Can you tell us if the motor Sega used in their racing cabs back then is the same one from SuzoHapp? I own a Happ wheel I bought from many years ago, and it too, uses a belt/pulley design. I remember reading back in the day how many arcade manufacturers licensed Happ's motor to use in their own cabs. If the ones in Sega's cabs are *NOT* Happ wheels, I'm curious as to which one is better between the two?

[Fursphere]

The only numbers I can find on the things are "43BVSG" (on the motor itself - The G could be a Q, its really hard to tell), "43BVSG 8420" on the motor face next to the shaft, then a barcode on the back cap "U0065483".  Those didn't appear to cross reference to anything online that I could find (only spent a couple of minutes).  The "black cap" on the back of the motor appears to be a rotary encoder, but has more wires than I'm used to seeing.  Basically, I have no idea.     I thought about buying a servo motor controller large enough to drive one of these and seeing if I could get it working with an Arduino for fun. 

Here are two pictures I just snapped next to one of my Fanatec CSL DD wheel bases to give you a frame of reference on the size.

[isamu]

OK thanks. Interesting. Yeah, that's definitely not the same Happ wheel. Mine has a sorta similar design but the motor appears to be a bit bigger.

[andrewaugust93]

The only numbers I can find on the things are "43BVSG" (on the motor itself - The G could be a Q, its really hard to tell), "43BVSG 8420" on the motor face next to the shaft, then a barcode on the back cap "U0065483".  Those didn't appear to cross reference to anything online that I could find (only spent a couple of minutes).  The "black cap" on the back of the motor appears to be a rotary encoder, but has more wires than I'm used to seeing.  Basically, I have no idea.     I thought about buying a servo motor controller large enough to drive one of these and seeing if I could get it working with an Arduino for fun. 

Here are two pictures I just snapped next to one of my Fanatec CSL DD wheel bases to give you a frame of reference on the size.

This is certainly very informative and helpful. From the outside, it does look a similar size to the CSL DD. However considering the actual CSL DD motor should be a bit smaller than the casing itself, I think we can assume the DUSA2 motor is slightly larger. If it's a true servo motor I wonder if they ever thought about just directly driving FFB to the player without gearing. Seems to be a motor that is powerful enough to not have to rely on belt and pulley gearing. 

I was very surprised when I dug around the part manual for DUSA2 and found that it had such a serious motor. I was under the assumption that it might have been something small like similar to those motor in Thrustmaster T300 wheels.

[Fursphere]

My best guess is that its based on some industrial design running well below spec to withstand the constant abuse of an arcade setting.  People were not nice to these things.

The steering wheel is a 300mm size, same as the Fanatec CSL WRC wheels I have, more or less a "full size" steering wheel. 

There are three seperate wiring harnesses going into the motor.   A black and white pair going into the front, near the output shaft.   A red, blue, and white set going into the back of the motor, in front of what I'm guessing is the high speed rotary encoder, then a whole bunch that go into the encoder itself.   It looks like you can remove the encoder with three screws on the back of the motor.  I might pull that off to see if I can find anything else.

[andrewaugust93]

Very good first post and welcome to the forums.

Yes, it's a great question as I too, have always been curious as to what kind of wheel/motor Sega uses in their cabs so thanks for sharing that info.

It's been ages, but I vaguely remember the FFB on the Daytona 2 cab being quite strong and it felt good. I suspect arcade operators had their cab settings turned up to the max. However, I have zero doubt the current crop of DD wheels, particularly anything 15NM and over, would surpass those old belt drive Sega cab wheels not only in strength, but *ESPECIALLY* in feel and overall performance.

I can tell you first hand, that my Bodnar wheel is 26nm and I have never....EVER needed to turn it up beyond 50% strength. I accidentally had it at 75% one time and no joke, I literally nearly snapped my wrist! DD wheels are absolute monsters.

Daytona 2 feels absolutely sublime on my wheel, but I remain curious, as to whether or not there is supposed to be any force feedback effect when rubbing/banging against other cars. Does anyone know if the real arcade cab did this? Because in Supermodel you don't feel it.

I am not using Boom's plugin but rather the native one that came with r880 of Supermodel. There is FFB when you bang against other cars. I'm not sure if there is constant FFB if you stay in contact with the other cars. But yes, you do get a jolt in the wheel when you collide side-by-side. I cannot remember the last time I touched a real DUSA2 machine, they're extinct in most places. But I am 90% certain in the real arcade hardware when you knock on a CPU car from the side the wheel does react. I recall this distinctly because it was one of the things that kinda annoyed and baffled the young me in 1999 (When the machines were still new and FFB was not broken), because my child-arms could not fight the FFB when my cousin banged into my car from the side.

[Fursphere]

From the outside, it does look a similar size to the CSL DD. However considering the actual CSL DD motor should be a bit smaller than the casing itself, I think we can assume the DUSA2 motor is slightly larger.

The DUSA2 motor is approx. 4.5" in diameter.  The Fanatec CSL DD is a little over 4.5" in diameter inside the heat sinks that make it look bigger than it is. 

Length wise, the DUSA2 motor is 4.5" long (not including the encoder) and the CSL DD appears to be about 3.5" for the aluminum section.   I tried removing the rotary encoder and something is keeping it on the shaft, I'll require deeper disassembly to get it apart.

The Fanatec CSW v2.5 is a dual belt, dual motor design (have one of those too), and honestly is pretty similar design wise to the Thrustmaster T300RS I used to have.  The CSW 2.5 is rated at 8 nm, where the Thrustmaster was around 5nm I think. 

[isamu]

Very good first post and welcome to the forums.

Yes, it's a great question as I too, have always been curious as to what kind of wheel/motor Sega uses in their cabs so thanks for sharing that info.

It's been ages, but I vaguely remember the FFB on the Daytona 2 cab being quite strong and it felt good. I suspect arcade operators had their cab settings turned up to the max. However, I have zero doubt the current crop of DD wheels, particularly anything 15NM and over, would surpass those old belt drive Sega cab wheels not only in strength, but *ESPECIALLY* in feel and overall performance.

I can tell you first hand, that my Bodnar wheel is 26nm and I have never....EVER needed to turn it up beyond 50% strength. I accidentally had it at 75% one time and no joke, I literally nearly snapped my wrist! DD wheels are absolute monsters.

Daytona 2 feels absolutely sublime on my wheel, but I remain curious, as to whether or not there is supposed to be any force feedback effect when rubbing/banging against other cars. Does anyone know if the real arcade cab did this? Because in Supermodel you don't feel it.

I am not using Boom's plugin but rather the native one that came with r880 of Supermodel. There is FFB when you bang against other cars. I'm not sure if there is constant FFB if you stay in contact with the other cars. But yes, you do get a jolt in the wheel when you collide side-by-side. I cannot remember the last time I touched a real DUSA2 machine, they're extinct in most places. But I am 90% certain in the real arcade hardware when you knock on a CPU car from the side the wheel does react. I recall this distinctly because it was one of the things that kinda annoyed and baffled the young me in 1999 (When the machines were still new and FFB was not broken), because my child-arms could not fight the FFB when my cousin banged into my car from the side.

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm gonna try it and see if I get the jolts to my wheel using the native ffb from supermodel. In the meantime, can you please try Boomslang's plugin when you get a chance, and tell me whether or not you're getting the same jolts upon colliding with the CPU cars?