Could the Arcade 1up thing have been succesful if handled differently?

[Howard_Casto]

As others have stated, I'm beginning to think that the "3/4" size has more to do with licensing and legal issues than anything.  Take pac-man for example....  they still put pac-man on brand new arcade cabinets and I'm guessing someone purchased the license to make them rather than Namco doing it themselves.  That means that said license is taken...for an arcade machine.... now for a toy on the other hand....that's fair game.  You'd be amazed how companies jump through hoops to work around certain legal restrictions. 

[yotsuya]

As others have stated, I'm beginning to think that the "3/4" size has more to do with licensing and legal issues than anything.  Take pac-man for example....  they still put pac-man on brand new arcade cabinets and I'm guessing someone purchased the license to make them rather than Namco doing it themselves.  That means that said license is taken...for an arcade machine.... now for a toy on the other hand....that's fair game.  You'd be amazed how companies jump through hoops to work around certain legal restrictions.

[MikeyJ122]

 I would call them a failure, quite the opposite really... I would say they are a huge success, at least finicially. That doesnt mean I support them, but I dont hate them either.

As I've said in other threads, the biggest "issue" I have with arcade 1ups is the fan base itself. Why? Because I really dont understand it, it just doesnt make sense to me. Let me elaborate...

I have been following the arcade 1up community rather closely (I watch youtubers that only talk about them and am in the FB group). They have developed a "us vs them" approach, perhaps MAME builders have propagated that as well?

Anyways, I just watch a video where one of these arcade 1 up youtubers bought a gameroom solutions kit. He actually really liked it and called it a "level up from arcade 1 up." He would NOT say it was better than arcade 1 up, but you could tell he liked it better. He just said things like "both are really good options." In the comment section though... I read TONS of comments like this "I like arcade 1 up better" "I'll only buy arcade 1 up" etc. So they have developed a pretty loyal fanbase, and that's what I dont understand? For casual gamers, sure I get it. But for people to buy ALL of them, mod them, etc. You are spending a lot of money for an inferior product. You can buy a kit for the same price, and itll be WAY better. That's what I dont understand.

[Osirus23]

They do have a bizarre cult following. The first time I saw one in person I would have done a spit-take had I been drinking something when I saw how tiny they were.

[Gilrock]

Unfortunately it seems like any time a product comes out commercially the quality is sacrificed for cost and/or they get crushed by trying to compete with Chinese knockoffs.  I saw it happen a few times in my other hobby of Christmas lighting.  I met a guy at an Expo that had a product that let people put a series of smart leds on tree and the sequencing was delivered over Bluetooth and he had a patent for his idea.  You can see his stuff at geekmytree.com.  I know he was featured on Shark Tank but I can't remember if he got backing or not.  Anyways once he expanded commercially to keep the cost down they switched from smart pixels to dumb pixels so instead of every pixel being controllable it ended up with the entire string had to be one color so only one control chip at the top of each string to save on parts cost.  Then he started getting hit with lawsuits from patent trolls claiming they had rights to simple aspects of the design like using data commands to turn on an LED.  He ended up going out of business.  The DIY community was disappointed in the product because after switching to dumb pixels they were not as useful for hacking purposes.  Second product I can think of is Really Big Lights.  These things were really popular and sold like crazy for a year or two and next thing you know Home Depot is selling a lower quality copy of the product so they ended up going out of business.  Both these products seemed like a huge success the first year or two.  I'll be curious to see where Arcade1Up stands in 3 years.  I don't understand anything about what version of MAME they used to run these things but arguing that they didn't do anything wrong because they aren't in court yet is stupid.  Again in the Christmas lighting world I've seen one vendor flat out steal another vendors design and have it copied in China and the folks impacted were smaller players and did not have the resources to fight them in court.  Doesn't mean they are legit because they weren't sued.

[yotsuya]

Unfortunately it seems like any time a product comes out commercially the quality is sacrificed for cost and/or they get crushed by trying to compete with Chinese knockoffs.  I saw it happen a few times in my other hobby of Christmas lighting.  I met a guy at an Expo that had a product that let people put a series of smart leds on tree and the sequencing was delivered over Bluetooth and he had a patent for his idea.  You can see his stuff at geekmytree.com.  I know he was featured on Shark Tank but I can't remember if he got backing or not.  Anyways once he expanded commercially to keep the cost down they switched from smart pixels to dumb pixels so instead of every pixel being controllable it ended up with the entire string had to be one color so only one control chip at the top of each string to save on parts cost.  Then he started getting hit with lawsuits from patent trolls claiming they had rights to simple aspects of the design like using data commands to turn on an LED.  He ended up going out of business.  The DIY community was disappointed in the product because after switching to dumb pixels they were not as useful for hacking purposes.  Second product I can think of is Really Big Lights.  These things were really popular and sold like crazy for a year or two and next thing you know Home Depot is selling a lower quality copy of the product so they ended up going out of business.  Both these products seemed like a huge success the first year or two.  I'll be curious to see where Arcade1Up stands in 3 years.  I don't understand anything about what version of MAME they used to run these things but arguing that they didn't do anything wrong because they aren't in court yet is stupid.  Again in the Christmas lighting world I've seen one vendor flat out steal another vendors design and have it copied in China and the folks impacted were smaller players and did not have the resources to fight them in court.  Doesn't mean they are legit because they weren't sued.

Good points, Gil. I’m curious if we’ll start seeing knockoff Arcade1Ups any time soon.

[pbj]

They're already Chinese knock offs.   

[Zebra]

They're already Chinese knock offs.   

I was gonna say that too. If you asked me to say what an Chinese knock-off of our fav arcades would be like, the 1UP is pretty much it. Poor build quality with careless low quality emulation just like all the knock-off ten million in one "PCBs".

[yotsuya]

They're already Chinese knock offs.   

I was gonna say that too. If you asked me to say what an Chinese knock-off of our fav arcades would be like, the 1UP is pretty much it. Poor build quality with careless low quality emulation just like all the knock-off ten million in one "PCBs".

Well, yeah, I get that, but If somebody can undercut whatever Arcade1Up is making, you don’t think they’re going to try it?

[Mike A]

What would that be?

A cardboard box with a screen drawn on it in crayon?

[yotsuya]

What would that be?

A cardboard box with a screen drawn on it in crayon?

Even cheaper materials. Existing multiboards.

[pbj]

The Chinese are already making multiboard cabinets that are plug and play location ready, and they're like $800.  We can sit here and debate what Arcade1up should have done different but that's clearly the price ceiling.  They're also making $150 joysticks with multiboards built in that are suspiciously similar in size to the Arcade1up control panel boxes.  I've played them side by side and it's very clearly the same people making both.

[leapinlew]

Arcade1up back up to full price at my 3 Wal-Marts around me. They were discounted yesterday. Using the OPs logic, they must be a success now!

[Howard_Casto]

The Chinese are already making multiboard cabinets that are plug and play location ready, and they're like $800.  We can sit here and debate what Arcade1up should have done different but that's clearly the price ceiling.  They're also making $150 joysticks with multiboards built in that are suspiciously similar in size to the Arcade1up control panel boxes.  I've played them side by side and it's very clearly the same people making both.

It's a custom board, but they are confirmed to use the same chip as those control panels with the games built in that you see on aliexpress all the time.  Honestly, those are probably a better deal as they cost about the same yet everything is full-sized..... plug it into a tv and you are good to go. 

[ark_ader]

They're already Chinese knock offs.   

I was gonna say that too. If you asked me to say what an Chinese knock-off of our fav arcades would be like, the 1UP is pretty much it. Poor build quality with careless low quality emulation just like all the knock-off ten million in one "PCBs".

Well they had plenty of experience with those x-1 boards, which was running Mame and they didn't get into any legal hot water.  My guess 1Up took that as a cheaper option, as they had a legal right to use the emulator.  It hasn't caused them any legal waffles.  I kind of hoped it would so we can see if Mame had any legitimate legal weight.  It is clear they don't.  So lets hope they use mame over blue or whatever it is called in the future.  Same goes for any other company that sells retro arcade products.

[Garavar]

Arcade1up back up to full price at my 3 Wal-Marts around me. They were discounted yesterday. Using the OPs logic, they must be a success now!

Now I have to wait for them to fail to buy my MK Machine

[leapinlew]

Walmart now carrying the Space Invaders machine:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Arcade1Up-Space-Invaders-Walmart-Exclusive-4ft-815221027718/678837037

Think anyone will pay full price?

[yotsuya]

Walmart now carrying the Space Invaders machine:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Arcade1Up-Space-Invaders-Walmart-Exclusive-4ft-815221027718/678837037

Think anyone will pay full price?

Just the dudes that gotta catch ‘em all!!!!

[negative1]

Walmart now carrying the Space Invaders machine:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Arcade1Up-Space-Invaders-Walmart-Exclusive-4ft-815221027718/678837037

Think anyone will pay full price?

reposted it in the wave 2 thread.

yes, there are plenty of people that want the iconic game,
because its cheaper, and easier than finding an original one.

later
-1

[Zebra]

They're already Chinese knock offs.   

I was gonna say that too. If you asked me to say what an Chinese knock-off of our fav arcades would be like, the 1UP is pretty much it. Poor build quality with careless low quality emulation just like all the knock-off ten million in one "PCBs".

Well they had plenty of experience with those x-1 boards, which was running Mame and they didn't get into any legal hot water.  My guess 1Up took that as a cheaper option, as they had a legal right to use the emulator.  It hasn't caused them any legal waffles.  I kind of hoped it would so we can see if Mame had any legitimate legal weight.  It is clear they don't.  So lets hope they use mame over blue or whatever it is called in the future.  Same goes for any other company that sells retro arcade products.

Is the underlying hardware pc based? If so, mame makes sense as the most complete and accurate arcade emulator but various consoles also have emulators they could have "borrowed". The ones I saw didn't look like they were running on any recent mame version I have seen. There was no HLSL etc.

If they ever made a Daytona or Sega Ralley cab, I would hope it would be based on the PS3 emulator. The PS3 versions of those games are the most accurate and least buggy I have seen. Far better than my pc model 2 emulator.

[Malenko]

The a1ups run on pretty much the same hardware as pandoras box 3 and 4.  An A13 CPU

[Zebra]

The a1ups run on pretty much the same hardware as pandoras box 3 and 4.  An A13 CPU

I guess that's the problem with trying to market them as such low budget items. Quality emulators require a fairly decent PC. Something that is easy to acquire used for a low price for individuals but not so easy to offer for companies marketing a new product.

Whoever suggested that they sell empty cabs to make it easy for users to add their own hardware was on to something. As cheap as the 1Ups are, they are far too much for cabs with 1 or 2 poorly emulated games.

[JDFan]

The a1ups run on pretty much the same hardware as pandoras box 3 and 4.  An A13 CPU

I guess that's the problem with trying to market them as such low budget items. Quality emulators require a fairly decent PC. Something that is easy to acquire used for a low price for individuals but not so easy to offer for companies marketing a new product.

Whoever suggested that they sell empty cabs to make it easy for users to add their own hardware was on to something. As cheap as the 1Ups are, they are far too much for cabs with 1 or 2 poorly emulated games.

Problem there is the cost would be the same as the full A1U cab with the 1 or 2 games -- and you'd still need to buy the rest of the parts (since they couldn't sell them loaded with roms and so would not include any of the game hardware in order to keep it open for all options ) - FIgure the PCB with the games is minimal cost and removing it would not really save A1U any $ ( selling an empty cab would cost as much to manufacture/distribute as the fully operational cabs) - Plus you then limit your audience to those willing/capable of building the rest thus limiting your target audience even more.

They are better off doing it the way they are since those that do not want to mod them can still buy them and those that want to mod them will still buy them and just use the shell etc. - and for A1U the profit margin is the same as it would be selling empty cabs.

[JDFan]

Whoever suggested that they sell empty cabs to make it easy for users to add their own hardware was on to something. As cheap as the 1Ups are, they are far too much for cabs with 1 or 2 poorly emulated games.

Thing is the PCB for the games is minimal cost - so selling empty cabs would not make any extra profit for A1U ( as buyers would expect an empty cab to be much cheaper than the current cabs but production/distribution costs would be almost the same ! )  and that would also limit their market to those capable/willing to finish the builds - They are better off doing it the way they are and modders can just buy a cab and modify it like is already being done - that way they get the sales to those that never plan to mod it and also from those that will.

[Zebra]

Whoever suggested that they sell empty cabs to make it easy for users to add their own hardware was on to something. As cheap as the 1Ups are, they are far too much for cabs with 1 or 2 poorly emulated games.

Thing is the PCB for the games is minimal cost - so selling empty cabs would not make any extra profit for A1U ( as buyers would expect an empty cab to be much cheaper than the current cabs but production/distribution costs would be almost the same ! )  and that would also limit their market to those capable/willing to finish the builds - They are better off doing it the way they are and modders can just buy a cab and modify it like is already being done - that way they get the sales to those that never plan to mod it and also from those that will.

There is a lot of guess-work and assumptions in that statement and I think it is wrong. Removing the electronics and licensing fees is a meaningful saving. I'm sure Namco and Capcom took their pound of flesh.

IMO, anyone that would buy and assemble a 1Up would be capable of assembling a bartop kit and putting a cheap PC inside. I find it hard to believe that anyone who loves gaming enough to put a cab in their house would find downloading mame too hard and too much effort.

Telling those who want a multicade to do a diy conversion is what will limit the market. Only extreme fans can be bothered to hack embedded electronics, rewire control panels, solder connections and remove decals with a hair-dryer to get at screws.

[Zebra]

This is the sort of thing they would need to make to peak my interest:













They are so cool!

[Mike A]

I don't get it at all. What is the fascination with a cab that is too small to actually play the game the right way? Those tiny cabs probably get played twice and then sit on a shelf.

[Howard_Casto]

Those cabs are in Walmart and thus all the normal consumers have direct access to them.  All of these other solutions are not.  If the various diy kits were available at Walmart then a1up wouldn't be as popular, but they aren't so there you go. 

[Malenko]

I don't get it at all. What is the fascination with a cab that is too small to actually play the game the right way? Those tiny cabs probably get played twice and then sit on a shelf.

I still love JohnRT's cabs, and i think they are completely playable. The others ones though, they definitely seem far too small.

[Osirus23]

This is the sort of thing they would need to make to peak my interest:

It's pique, dammit.

[lilshawn]

peek

 

[opt2not]

"Fullsized" bartops are completely playable. JohnRT's driving cabs are fine.

The miniture sized cabinets are just desk ornaments. Interesting to look at, but not really practical or useful for gaming.  The hipsters love 'em though.

[keilmillerjr]

This is the sort of thing they would need to make to peak my interest:

They are so cool!

Seems big enough for a ferret to play. Hooman… not so much.

[Gilrock]

I've been itching to play Sega Rally Championship so that first cab looks pretty nice.  Is there a build thread around for that?  I can't find any member named JohnRT.

[Zebra]

"Fullsized" bartops are completely playable. JohnRT's driving cabs are fine.

The miniture sized cabinets are just desk ornaments. Interesting to look at, but not really practical or useful for gaming.  The hipsters love 'em though.

Having comfortable controls is important but if people can enjoy playing on a Gameboy then a bartop is more than playable.

The starting point for these things is that most people don't have room to put a full size cab or a dedicated sit down in their house (or their wife just said no). A bartop has the advantage of being the right height when placed on a desk but still small enough to put in a large closet when not in use.

I could see it being great fun to have a pair of linked up Daytona bartops for when the guys come over. There is added value there, espiecially if the driving cab had a bunch of classic racers. I don't see much value (to me) in a 4ft single game joystick cab.

[Zebra]

I've been itching to play Sega Rally Championship so that first cab looks pretty nice.  Is there a build thread around for that?  I can't find any member named JohnRT.

I think there might be one on YouTube. There is for the Outrun cabs anyway.

For Sega Ralley and Daytona, I'd put a PS3 inside and use one of the Logitech ffb wheels that sell for $30 on eBay these days. Bartop racer on the desk, pedals under the desk and everything is at the right height.

I kept an old Sony crt PC monitor in the garage with one of these in mind.

[opt2not]

I've been itching to play Sega Rally Championship so that first cab looks pretty nice.  Is there a build thread around for that?  I can't find any member named JohnRT.

Looks like JohnRT nuked his account here.  He's still got some of his posts up, but they're missing pictures.

I did find a youtube video of his outrun bartop:


Can't remember who built that Sega Rally bartop.

"Fullsized" bartops are completely playable. JohnRT's driving cabs are fine.

The miniture sized cabinets are just desk ornaments. Interesting to look at, but not really practical or useful for gaming.  The hipsters love 'em though.

Having comfortable controls is important but if people can enjoy playing on a Gameboy then a bartop is more than playable.

This statement doesn't make any sense, because the Gameboy is completely playable. In fact, I'd go so far to say it's comfortable for my hands.  I'm not arguing about bartops, I'm arguing against the "mini" sized cabinets that fit in the palm of your hand. Those minitures are just ornaments.

[Zebra]

I've been itching to play Sega Rally Championship so that first cab looks pretty nice.  Is there a build thread around for that?  I can't find any member named JohnRT.

Looks like JohnRT nuked his account here.  He's still got some of his posts up, but they're missing pictures.

I did find a youtube video of his outrun bartop:


Can't remember who built that Sega Rally bartop.

"Fullsized" bartops are completely playable. JohnRT's driving cabs are fine.

The miniture sized cabinets are just desk ornaments. Interesting to look at, but not really practical or useful for gaming.  The hipsters love 'em though.

Having comfortable controls is important but if people can enjoy playing on a Gameboy then a bartop is more than playable.

This statement doesn't make any sense, because the Gameboy is completely playable. In fact, I'd go so far to say it's comfortable for my hands.  I'm not arguing about bartops, I'm arguing against the "mini" sized cabinets that fit in the palm of your hand. Those minitures are just ornaments.

All but one of the cabs I posted pics of were bartops, not the little novelty cabs.

I'll reserve judgement on the 12" mini cabs until I try one but I don't think anyone would expect them to feel exactly like a full size. That doesn't mean they can't be made playable and fun though. As with a gameboy, it just requires a little design care.

The sort of set up I would be most likely to buy is a pair of linked bartop size racing cabs with a full size ffb wheel and seperate pedals under my desk. I have a Logitech ffb wheel for my PS3. One of those could easily fit a well designed bartop. Or a Star Wars bartop with yoke controls, or an afterburner cab with a decent analog stick etc.

The key point is that I want more added value and a better reason to buy one. With the current offering, I can't see what I gain over playing on a laptop with a cheap eBay fight stick. If they are only going to put one or two games in a cab, they need to do more to create an arcade-like experience imo.