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Author Topic: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver  (Read 10618 times)

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rjpe

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Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« on: September 14, 2013, 12:53:15 pm »
Hi guys,

I arranged a new MAME/CRT Emu Driver setup on a Crown TV that I'm very happy with, please check the post on my blog and tell me what you think.
I know it's not perfect, but it can help some Arcade Builders achieving good results results with a Scart-TV. It worked for me, I'm pretty happy with the result.

The process is here: http://perdigaos.blogspot.pt/2013/09/testing-other-tv-on-upright-and-some.html

Cheers

rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2013, 02:56:24 pm »
Nice work, looking good.

From your blog: "If you don't want to change the TV's geometry all the time with the Service Menu, you can't have all games displaying in their original resolution and fitting the screen- It's a fact!"

Unfortunately it's true.  Maybe you've noticed that the problem is only with vertical size though.  You can get the horizontal size to whatever you want through modeline adjustments, which is real easy in ArcadeOSD.  Unfortunately vertical size changes through modelines are much more difficult, you can't really get it to change more than 2 or 3 lines.  With the common range of vertical sizes in MAME being 224-256 lines, this obviously doesn't cut it. 

There are a few solutions to this:

1.  Just set it to a happy medium and leave it alone. Let a few lines of the 256 line games get cut off, and if you can get your edge geometry square enough, the 224 line games might not look too bad with small black borders.

2.  Use a vertical size pot to keep yourself out of the service menu.  You could either mod one into a digital chassis (still looking into this) or just use an older analog chassis.  This is a lot harder in the US, where analog chassis TV's with RGB or component input are rare.  You could use an arcade monitor, but decent ones are rare and also expensive.

3.  Find a chassis with a "size-switching" capability.  See this post:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1385292.html#msg1385292

"Next test will be with an Arcade VGA 3000"

I will be surprised if you like it better than CRT_Emudriver.  I'm interested in your findings.

adder

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2013, 07:31:10 am »
i might have mentioned this before but a nice tip is if u own a crt tv which has a 16:9 mode as well as a 4:3 mode (selectable via the remote control or pin 8 of the scart socket (see footnote)).. and if your tv allows you via the service menu to set the geometry of your 4:3 and 16:9 mode independently, you can simply adjust the 16:9 mode to make it look similar to your 4:3 mode

doing this, i now have 2 'screen modes' for my tv so to speak. i have set the 4:3 mode up so that it fits 240 line games pretty much perfectly, and then when i run 224 line games in this mode there are black borders at the top and bottom (but they are not too big to be an issue for me anyway)

for the 16:9 mode i have set it to fit about 270 lines which i use for 256 line games and above

you can then switch between the two tv modes depending on which games you are running, using your tv remote control or by a switch rigged up to scart pin 8 and eg. a resistor to change the volts being sent to the pin

rCadeGaming: the vertical size pot is an idea i have been thinking about also, im thinking it would be a very good solution to the 'getting everything to fit right' issue. its funny but i noticed some games in mame actually have built in black borders (example, double dragon (surrounding black border) and wonderboy (left and right black borders).. kung fu master: 8 black lines at the bottom of the screen... etc

-- On many TV's taking pin 8 high will auto select the SCART input. With a voltage range of 4.5V to 7.0V a compatible set will select AV input in 16x9 mode. With a voltage range of 9.5v to 12.0v the set will select AV input in 4x3 mode.









Calamity

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 06:50:30 pm »
Hi rjpe,

I've read about your method, I think I see your point and I'll try to explain why I find your method suboptimal and how I'd improve it.

First...

Quote
A big disadvantage of GroovyMAME is: it calculates it's own modelines, even you correct them with Arcade OSD. Calamity says that we will be able to use the corrected modelines in the future, let's wait for that big improvement.

Well, what you see as a big disadvantage is actually, IMHO, its biggest strength. What you call a big improvement, will indeed mean the failure of the GroovyMAME concept. The return to the dark age of ad hoc modelines. The idea behind GroovyMAME was to prove that modeline generation can have predictable results, when everyone insisted this was not possible. The strategy is to modelize the CRT by using just the minimum possible amount of parameters. This works great for arcade monitors. Unfortunately TVs with digital chips are more complex to modelize because they implement some rudimentary logic inside, that frustrates the attempts to get all video modes centered. But this doesn't mean that this logic cannot be understood and programmed. It's only that very few users take up the challenge, so we haven't developed the required knowledge to even deal with the most common models. And I don't use TVs anyway, so...

Quote
The others that don't fit, I resize them to 1234x224 (progressive resolution, much better than resizing to 640x480i) with hardware strech set to 1.

Well this is your opinion. However, in think that downsizing everything to 224 completely ruins the detail of higher resolutions, and creates all sort of artifacts. If you are decided to resize things to a fixed resolution, better use the highest possible, and that's an interlaced resolution. Of course, that depends on the quality of the interlaced video you get on your particular monitor. My Hantarex 9110 gives an excellent quality, flicker is not very noticeable, specially when you use bilinear filtering. I'd say an interlaced mode gives about as much detail as 2/3 its vertical resolution. So 480i would provide similar detail to 320p, despite the flicker. Of course if you really can't stand the flicker this is out of question.

Quote
My R-Type INI File (rtype.ini):
screen0 \\.\DISPLAY1
resolution0 1234x224@60
hwstrech 1
syncrefresh 0

You can't do this to R-Type unless you hate it for some reason. Think that Irem games run at 55 Hz! Anyway you're forcing it to run with syncfresh off, so you're going to see lots of tearing and choppy scroll. Tearing is worse than flicker if you ask me.

Please don't get me wrong, I understand what you're trying to achieve here and I think it's a legit approach.

You can achieve similar results with GroovyMAME by using these options:

Code: [Select]
monitor custom
dotclock_min 8.0
crt_range0 15625-15750, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 224, 0, 0

This will force all games to use a max vertical resolution of 224, while still preserving their native refresh, and will forbid the use of interlaced modes.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 11:05:50 am »
Quote
A big disadvantage of GroovyMAME is: it calculates it's own modelines, even you correct them with Arcade OSD. Calamity says that we will be able to use the corrected modelines in the future, let's wait for that big improvement.

Well, what you see as a big disadvantage is actually, IMHO, its biggest strength. What you call a big improvement, will indeed mean the failure of the GroovyMAME concept.

I don't think that it would ruin the concept.  I think the majority of users would still stick to the auto-generated modelines.  User defined modelines would be just be a very nice option for advance users who want more control sometimes.  Auto-generated modelines could still be used most of the time, but I just think it's important to be able to step in in the odd case where something doesn't come out right.  Not because the auto-generation has failed, but it could just be something it wasn't intended to encounter, like some odd logic on a digital TV chassis as you mentioned.  Or, maybe it could just be that the user wants to bias the vertical positioning for only one particular game, because there is something important at the top of the screen, like a life bar or score display that needs to be pulled out of the overscan, and not much going on at the bottom, so that can be pushed into the overscan.  On other games it's the reverse.  Or it could be something else.  I'm just saying there can be special cases that you can't expect an auto-generation feature to know about, and yes these TV's can be quirky, and I understand it wasn't designed for them.

In any case, I know I don't really have any say in the matter, but I really hope you don't mean you're having second thoughts about user-defined modelines.  If you feel that it would muddy up the concept of GM itself, could we have it as an optional patch?  Barring that, any ETA on switchres15?   :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Quote
The others that don't fit, I resize them to 1234x224 (progressive resolution, much better than resizing to 640x480i) with hardware strech set to 1.
Well this is your opinion. However, in think that downsizing everything to 224 completely ruins the detail of higher resolutions, and creates all sort of artifacts.

Yeah, I didn't want to tear down RJPE's work, but I would have to agree with Calamity on this one.  Downscaling to fewer lines than native is never going to come out well.  Also, you don't need to run everything in 224 lines because that it what is visible on your TV.  You can do 240p and 256p with some lines in the overscan.

rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 11:17:51 am »
Jadder, using the 4:3 and 16:9 modes for two different sets of geometry settings is shear brilliance.  I don't know why I didn't think of that.  All of the digital chassis 15kHz 4:3 Sony's I've used have had a 16:9 mode that could be selected.

Unfortunately, I'm having trouble getting the 16:9 mode on the TV I'm working with right now to fill the whole screen, as it's originally meant to show black borders at the top and bottom.  The switch also can't be automated with a pin on the input, as we don't have that with US models, it has to be done through the on screen menu (the user one though, not the service menu).  I wish I could use European TV's.  I'll keep working on this though.

As for the black borders on certain games, you'll see that a lot with games that were designed for CRT's.  The black space is just meant to be pushed into the overscan.  Take a look at Mario 3 on NES.  There's all kinds of garbage on the side of the screen that they didn't expect anyone to ever be able to see.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:26:51 pm by rCadeGaming »

Calamity

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 11:41:09 am »
Yeah re-reading my post it may sound I was too hard with rjpe's method and that was not really my intention. I really appreciate people testing their own creative solutions and workarounds, because that gives new ideas on how to improve GroovyMAME in the future.

Quote
In any case, I know I don't really have any say in the matter, but I really hope you don't mean you're having second thoughts about user-defined modelines.

Of course you have things to say and I want to hear them :) I'm not having any kind of second thoughts on this. It is definitely going to be implemented. I thought it would happen sooner but this year I dedicated my scarce energies to W7 compatibility (which is still "beta") rather than Switchres 15 which was first purpose. And regarding Switchres 15, and specifically the custom modeline support, I really need to open some sort of brainstorming thread because I'm not quite sure how would be the best way to implement this (have modelines being taken as raw text in ini files? use a database?).

I don't mean it's going to ruin the concept behind GroovyMAME but it's definitely going to pervert it. Because it's true that sometimes I miss this feature too for whatever reason and advanced users will benefit from this option wisely. But the average user will see it as a shortcut to avoid understanding the crt_range model and will base everything on ad hoc adjustments. And a new family of lame features will be requested subsequently, because obviously the average user will demand not having to adjust 500+ unique modelines, ehehe... Finally some people will come up with a 30-modeline setup and we will be happily back in 2007 after years of work  ;D

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 04:34:09 pm »
I don't mean it's going to ruin the concept behind GroovyMAME but it's definitely going to pervert it. Because it's true that sometimes I miss this feature too for whatever reason and advanced users will benefit from this option wisely. But the average user will see it as a shortcut to avoid understanding the crt_range model and will base everything on ad hoc adjustments. And a new family of lame features will be requested subsequently, because obviously the average user will demand not having to adjust 500+ unique modelines, ehehe... Finally some people will come up with a 30-modeline setup and we will be happily back in 2007 after years of work  ;D

I see what you mean, it can be a slippery slope.  It can be difficult convincing the average user to put in the effort to acheive the optimal result, rather than taking shortcuts to a mediocre result.  One obvious but simple thing to help would be to continue to push the performance, and especially the convenience, of the auto-generation, with suggestions, testimonials, evidence, etc.

I think a more difficult, but more comprehensive solution would be to have a more complete selection of presets for exact models of monitors and TV's available.  I know this takes a lot of work and feedback from owners of each model though.  I could at least help with some TV's.

regarding Switchres 15, and specifically the custom modeline support, I really need to open some sort of brainstorming thread because I'm not quite sure how would be the best way to implement this (have modelines being taken as raw text in ini files? use a database?).

For me, I think inserting the raw text of the modeline into the ini, and letting it behave like any other ini setting would be optimal.  You could insert it into a driver's ini to set the modeline for any game for that driver, or insert it into the ini for just a specific game, and all the same rules for what takes precedence would apply.

I can see how using other methods could make it more powerful and convenient, but just to have it working for now it would be plenty effective, and I wouldn't complain if it just stayed like that.  Making it too convenient could get beginners overusing it too.  Maybe the auto-generation settings could ultimately be incorporated into some highly user-friendly UI, while discrete modelines could remain in raw text.

I look forward to the brainstorming thread.  Thanks for being so receptive to input  :cheers:

rjpe

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 08:19:15 pm »
Hello,

Thanks for the feedback.
Lot's of good information to help others setting their setups with Scart-TVs.

The main scope of the method I posted is "MAME on NTSC/PAL SCART-TVs", and the main objectives are:
- Generating NTSC Modelines with VMMaker (more close to 60Hz);
- Fit the screen to 224 resolutions, so that games like bobble bobble, golden axe, black tiger and others x224 will be displayed in their original resolutions in full screen;
- Have everything else fitting the whole screen.

Calamity, don't worry man, I respect your comments, and I understand them. Just for the record, I love R-Type, I played it a lot on the Speccy 48K.  ;D Regarding the syncrefresh parameter set to 0, if I don't do that, I have problems with sound and frame rate when using 1234x224 (at least with official MAME, I'll try later on with GroovyMAME).
I understand that GroovyMAME is more focused on Arcade Monitors. I hope you realize that SCART-TV's are very important to a lot of Arcade Revivalists that don't have easy access to Arcade Monitors. This method is something simple that worked for me, and might help others. I know that it's not optimal, but it's the only method I see that allow us to fit everything and having the best classic horizontal games (in my opinion...) in original res fitting the whole screen, on a SCART-TV.

I would love to get a better setup (I'm still open to changes), using GroovyMAME, but this was the one until now that better fits my requirements.
During this week I'll try to test your suggested settings.

Regarding the user-defined modelines on GroovyMAME, for SCART-TV setups I think it is a must. I tried the PAL and NTSC options on both VMMaker and GroovyMAME and it never fitted either vertically or horizontally for 4 different TV sets I've been testing. I always needed to edit the generated modelines on ARCADE OSD. Maybe we need to implement a wizard for Scart-TV's? A Checklist? I'm sure that there are lot's of BYOAC'ers willing to test SCART-TV's for you (I have 6 different TV sets to test). What do you need to start this? Will this kind of testing be interesting for you, or want to limit the scope to Arcade Monitors?

rCadeGaming, thanks for the feedback. Regarding the solutions you posted, I tried the 1st, and I really think that the best is to choose the number of lines of your preferred game and fit the whole screen. It's a matter of taste. The 2nd option is very interesting, but I don't have the skills to do that. I already thought in getting some CRT TV expert installing an Arcade Monitor Chasis on a few TV's, I didn't find anyone yet.  :) I'll be watching size-swicthing chassis as well.
ArcadeVGA 3000 is something I'm very curious about because of the "Arcade Perfect Utility"... I wonder if it works well for Scart-TV's.

jadder, I confirm that your method works. For this TV, it's not possible, but on the BEKO Chassis (the one I have that interlaces everything), I have a different geometry sub-menu for 16:9, that I needed to adjust for 60Hz resolutions.






rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2013, 10:49:04 am »
the main objectives are:
- Generating NTSC Modelines with VMMaker (more close to 60Hz);

I think this is a point of confusion.  That's exactly what you don't want to do. 

What is the need to run things at 60Hz?  Most NTSC TV's can do anything in the range of 60Hz, maybe +- 3Hz.  If you're using something capable of both PAL and NTSC, it likely has a very wide range its capable of.  Not just 50 and 60Hz, but probably everything in between, and a little above and below that range too.  You should take advantage of that.

Maybe I'm wrong and you have a really strict chassis, but have you tried it?  My KD-27FS170 can do about 45-65Hz.

The reason that you should is that native resolution is only half the picture.  Native refresh rate is really important as well.  Matching the actual output refresh rate to the native rate of each game is the only way to get exact frame for frame emulation at the correct game speed.  It's also the best way to avoid tearing and sound issues.

If you were having issues with syncrefresh, it's probably because your output refresh wasn't matched to native.  Turn on syncrefresh once it's correctly matched.

- Fit the screen to 224 resolutions, so that games like bobble bobble, golden axe, black tiger and others x224 will be displayed in their original resolutions in full screen;
- Have everything else fitting the whole screen.

Last night I spent some time looking over all the games I consider worth playing in MAME.  A few hundred if you really stretch the definition of "worth playing."  What I found is that among the 15kHz games (which are the great majority), anything over 240p is actually pretty rare.  224p is by far the most common, with 240p in a distant second, and a few odd resolutions in between 224-240 lines being third.  There's not a lot that's notable over 240 lines, except the Irem m72.c games (R-Type I and II, Ninja Spirit, Image Fight, X-Multiply, all 256p), and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p).  Let me know if you can think of anything else (not sarcasm, I'd seriously like to know).

Anyhow, what I'm driving at is that if you must squash 256p stuff like R-Type, that's your preference.  You'll be missing some lines, but I understand if you think 32 lines is too much to leave in the overscan.  However, since most of what doesn't fit into your 224 lines is 240 lines or less, I think you should try letting those use some overscan.  I also have a MAME TV set to about 224 lines visible, and it's pretty rare that you can't shift any 240p game around so that the 16 lines hidden in the overscan are nothing important.  These games were made with some overscan in mind. 

Just try running anything 225-240 lines unstretched in a 240 line resolution, and shift it up and down as needed.

I already thought in getting some CRT TV expert installing an Arcade Monitor Chasis on a few TV's, I didn't find anyone yet.

A small company called 8-liners makes conversion chassis's, but they only work for certain tubes, and I don't know if the quality is any good.

I'll be watching size-swicthing chassis as well.

Keep in mind that the larger size will be great for 256p games, but not so much for 240p or less as it's too big, leaving black borders.  Those still need to fit in with the 224 lines games.  That's what I found at least.

ArcadeVGA 3000 is something I'm very curious about because of the "Arcade Perfect Utility"... I wonder if it works well for Scart-TV's.

I haven't used it myself, but I can't imagine that it could do anything that ArcadeOSD can't.  The ArcadeVGA seems to be an overpriced, less powerful, and less flexible alternative to CRT_Emudriver.

rjpe

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 12:51:48 pm »
the main objectives are:
- Generating NTSC Modelines with VMMaker (more close to 60Hz);

I think this is a point of confusion.  That's exactly what you don't want to do. 

What is the need to run things at 60Hz?  Most NTSC TV's can do anything in the range of 60Hz, maybe +- 3Hz.  If you're using something capable of both PAL and NTSC, it likely has a very wide range its capable of.  Not just 50 and 60Hz, but probably everything in between, and a little above and below that range too.  You should take advantage of that.
Maybe I'm wrong and you have a really strict chassis, but have you tried it?  My KD-27FS170 can do about 45-65Hz.

The reason that you should is that native resolution is only half the picture.  Native refresh rate is really important as well.  Matching the actual output refresh rate to the native rate of each game is the only way to get exact frame for frame emulation at the correct game speed.  It's also the best way to avoid tearing and sound issues.

If you were having issues with syncrefresh, it's probably because your output refresh wasn't matched to native.  Turn on syncrefresh once it's correctly matched.

When I have refresh rates close to 50Hz (syncing with the original refresh rate) the TV's geometry changes... some x224 games didn't fit the screen anymore. That's why I forced NTSC. I'll check it again, and will post the results. I think that it's one of those automatic adjustments that ruin the multiple arcade emulation (even for the same resolution, if the games have different refreshes, the geometry alignment will be different...). It happened with more than 1 TV. I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

- Fit the screen to 224 resolutions, so that games like bobble bobble, golden axe, black tiger and others x224 will be displayed in their original resolutions in full screen;
- Have everything else fitting the whole screen.

Last night I spent some time looking over all the games I consider worth playing in MAME.  A few hundred if you really stretch the definition of "worth playing."  What I found is that among the 15kHz games (which are the great majority), anything over 240p is actually pretty rare.  224p is by far the most common, with 240p in a distant second, and a few odd resolutions in between 224-240 lines being third.  There's not a lot that's notable over 240 lines, except the Irem m72.c games (R-Type I and II, Ninja Spirit, Image Fight, X-Multiply, all 256p), and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p).  Let me know if you can think of anything else (not sarcasm, I'd seriously like to know).

Anyhow, what I'm driving at is that if you must squash 256p stuff like R-Type, that's your preference.  You'll be missing some lines, but I understand if you think 32 lines is too much to leave in the overscan.  However, since most of what doesn't fit into your 224 lines is 240 lines or less, I think you should try letting those use some overscan.  I also have a MAME TV set to about 224 lines visible, and it's pretty rare that you can't shift any 240p game around so that the 16 lines hidden in the overscan are nothing important.  These games were made with some overscan in mind. 

Just try running anything 225-240 lines unstretched in a 240 line resolution, and shift it up and down as needed.

R-type was the game I was testing for 256 lines. I start to think that the best option would be to have 2 Cabinets, one for 224 and other for 240 or 256.  ;) Didn't find any other game (I'm not a big fan of MK and similar) that is not 224 and I want to play often besides R-Type.
I think it's good idea to count the games using x224, x240 and x256. That will ease the games selection for the type of resolution we want. Anyone has this numbers?

What do you mean shift it up and down? Service Menu? That's very user-unfriendly. The main point of the Cabinet is my children not needing their dad changing the geometry to play the games (they just turn on the machine, select the game and play). Having to change the geometry every time is out of the question for me, but I agree that it is an option for others.

I already thought in getting some CRT TV expert installing an Arcade Monitor Chasis on a few TV's, I didn't find anyone yet.

A small company called 8-liners makes conversion chassis's, but they only work for certain tubes, and I don't know if the quality is any good.

Yep, I saw it when Googling for it. I prefer to find someone local (near my house) that might be able to do the job.

ArcadeVGA 3000 is something I'm very curious about because of the "Arcade Perfect Utility"... I wonder if it works well for Scart-TV's.

I haven't used it myself, but I can't imagine that it could do anything that ArcadeOSD can't.  The ArcadeVGA seems to be an overpriced, less powerful, and less flexible alternative to CRT_Emudriver.

I have a Setup on my on-going vertical cabinet project that uses ArcadeVGA2 (AGP) plus CRT Emu Driver, and it works great! Best setup until now. Having the BIOS and OS boots appearing on the TV is great because you see what is happening, and you minimize the risk of damaging your CRT. This ArcadeVGA was bought for 40 on Ultimarc (ArcadeVGA stock-off), for me it was a great deal. I agree that it's expensive when compared with better GPU's...

I'm aware of the difficulty of flashing an ATI with 15KHz resolutions, but I would love to see a project at BYOAC named "CRT Emu Flash for the ATI Radeon XXX". I aware of the difficulty, I'm just saying that it would be 5 stars.

Thanks again for the input

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 10:13:40 pm »
When I have refresh rates close to 50Hz (syncing with the original refresh rate) the TV's geometry changes... some x224 games didn't fit the screen anymore

What games are close to 50Hz?  Do you mean 55Hz?

When you say the geometry changes, what specifically do you mean?  In ArcadeOSD, you can achieve independent adjustments of refresh rate, horizontal and vertical position, and horizontal size.  You can set all of these to whatever you want.  Find the right refresh rate, then fix the geometry.

How can adjustments for a 55Hz game affect the geometry for a 224p game?  You should be using seperate modelines for games with different requirements.

What do you mean shift it up and down? Service Menu?

No, no.  I would not consider that an option.  You can do it in ArcadeOSD.  The idea is that the service menu settings are calibrated once, and then left alone.  Further changes are automated with the use of different modelines.

Every game with any kind of different requirement (meaning different resolution, different geometry, or different refresh rate) needs its own modeline.  All of these adjustments can be made in ArcadeOSD, so that once it's all set up you just select a game and it launches it in the correct modeline automatically.  Everything's automated.

Familiarize yourself with the hardware drivers, cps2, m72, neodriver, stv, etc.  You'll find that a single modeline work usually work for every game of a certain driver, as they usually all run in the same resolution and refresh rate.  This makes things a little easier, but you can see that you can still end up having to make a ton of custom modelines.  So it will benefit you to get GM's auto-generation working well, and only step in where needed.

I start to think that the best option would be to have 2 Cabinets, one for 224 and other for 240 or 256.  ;)

Well sure, as long as you have unlimited time, space, and money.  Don't forget you also need vertical cabs, a flat panel cab for modern games, several racing cabs linked together, pinball cabs, lightgun cabs, and a Virtual On cab!

It depends on the person.  I'm particularly sick, so I'm just going to settle with one 15kHz horizontal, one 15kHz vertical, two racing cabs, and maybe a flat panel cab.  Oh, and some portable joysticks.  And a Game Boy Advance mini-cab to plug into my 15kHz horizontal cab while playing Pac-Man Vs.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2013, 02:46:38 am »
Don't get me wrong, I was just kidding about the second horizontal cab... No space and no money... and no time... I wish I just had only more time to improve this project and finish the other two. But still, thanks for your help and knowledge I think I'm getting somewhere and learning a few more important considerations.

So, maybe that's what I was missing! I need to add more 224 (and x240 and x256) with different refresh rates to reslist.txt and adjust them one by one, that's what you're suggesting, right?
How to force Vmmaker to generate all res with different refresh rates without forcing them in reslist.txt?

If this will work, I'll review the process and update it because this was one of problems I had with the custom monitor modeline.
Then, I'll try again the x256 games with some overscan and see how it looks.

Thanks again

8)




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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2013, 08:23:29 am »
Quote from: rjpe
When I have refresh rates close to 50Hz (syncing with the original refresh rate) the TV's geometry changes... some x224 games didn't fit the screen anymore. That's why I forced NTSC. I'll check it again, and will post the results. I think that it's one of those automatic adjustments that ruin the multiple arcade emulation (even for the same resolution, if the games have different refreshes, the geometry alignment will be different...). It happened with more than 1 TV. I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

Quote from: rCadeGaming
When you say the geometry changes, what specifically do you mean?

i think he means the same thing i get and anyone using a european crt tv which has seperate pal and ntsc modes

the tv will let you be in either ntsc mode (and give you some play on the number of active total lines and refresh rate in that mode), and same with pal. when in ntsc mode you can go down to about 55hz if i remember. once you start to go lower, the tv switches into pal mode (the screen actually flicks into this different mode). here you have more lines to work with, but you wont be able to push the refresh rate much above 55hz or the tv just flicks back into ntsc mode.

the 'games worth playing' chat is interesting, i am the same in the sense that i dont see the point of setting up EVERY possible mame resolution because there are hundreds, and of course some mame games suck, i wouldnt play them all

personally these are the games i play below:

lines high:
   192       a few games eg. atomic robokid, ninja-kid II  note: i do get black surrounding borders for these games
   216       a few games eg. rabbit punch (a.k.a rabio lepus)...cool game
   224       huge amount of games eg. shinobi etc
   232       a few games eg. arkanoid returns
   240       huge amount of games eg. rastan, gauntlet
   252       moon patrol, i really like this game so made sure i had it set up
   254       mortal kombat games and some others
   256       big amount of vertical games (commando, 1942, scramble) plus some horizontals (rtype, kung fu master)
   280       contra, alcon, tiger heli
   288       lots of vertical games eg. pacman, dig dug, xevious

i run all of these games on a horizontally mounted tv and i use the '4:3/16:9' trick as i mentioned in my earlier post above.

Quote from: rCadeGaming
and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p

mame reports those wrong actually. if you run any of the midway games listed under that odd 399 x 253 resolution, they end up running in a different resolution once the game launches, which is either 254 lines high (eg. mortal kombats), 255 lines (eg. terminator 2) or 256 lines (smash tv, total carnage)

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:02:06 pm by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 11:04:10 am »
So, maybe that's what I was missing! I need to add more 224 (and x240 and x256) with different refresh rates to reslist.txt and adjust them one by one, that's what you're suggesting, right?

Yes exactly.

How to force Vmmaker to generate all res with different refresh rates without forcing them in reslist.txt?

When you first set things up, you should try and get VMMaker to generate as many different resolutions as possible, but actually getting the exact timing values you need should then be done in Arcade OSD.  Once you know what you're going for, pick the closest thing in ArcadeOSD and tweak it to what you need.  You can start with any resolution in ArcadeOSD and change it to anything else.  Then get the text modeline for what you've created and save that, keeping track of what driver or game it's for.  Repeat this and you'll have a list of text modelines you want.  I actually use WinModelines to manage them.

This is a lot of work, so don't forget about trying GM's auto-generation to cut some of it down.

the tv will let you be in either ntsc mode (and give you some play on the number of active lines and refresh rate in that mode), and same with pal. when in ntsc mode you can go down to about 55hz if i remember. once you start to go lower, the tv switches into pal mode (the screen actually flicks into this different mode). here you have more lines to work with, but you wont be able to push the refresh rate much above 55hz or the tv just flicks back into ntsc mode.

Right, just as I get with the KD-27FS170 chassis.  Play with this in ArcadeOSD and watch very closely to find the exact trigger point that causes the change.  You may find that it's actually based on the number of total lines, not the refresh rate (be sure not to confuse total lines with active lines).  In any case, find exactly what triggers it and you'll be able to control it.  This could be a big advantage, not a problem.  The only games that run around 55Hz need around 254 or 256 lines, so getting extra lines to work with is exactly what you want.

Anyhow, I think we're in agreement that this a rare case, as there's only a handful of worthwhile games with such a low refresh rate, but keep playing with it.  I think you'll be able to use this to your advantage.

personally these are the games i play below:

lines high...

I think it should be noted that in the case of vertical games here you're actually listing their width in terms of native video, not their height.  That's the reason for discrepancy between our lists.  Technically, everything you've list under "256, 280, and 288" is actually 224p or 240p, aside from R-Type and Kung Fu Master. 

In your setup it's correct to the think of their width as their height, because you're displaying vertical games on a horizontal screen (yoko).  I just think's it's important to be pointed out for anyone else reading this.

Quote from: rCadeGaming
and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p

mame reports those wrong actually. if you run any of the midway games listed under that odd 399 x 253 resolution, they end up running in a different resolution once the game launches, which is either 254 lines high (eg. mortal kombats), 255 lines (eg. terminator 2) or 256 lines (smash tv, total carnage)

Ah.  Yeah, I figured it looked odd, but didn't test it yet.  I don't care about Mortal Kombat, but I do love NBA Jam, so I'll keep it in mind.

Another strange case is the Sega ST-V hardware (stv.c).  It's reported as 512p, which is sometimes used in title screens and attract modes, but actual gameplay looks like 256p or less.  It doesn't look like there is any provision for properly reporting when multiple resolutions are used.  Cotton Boomerang looks like it actually uses 336x208p, judging from a screenshot examined in MS paint, whereas Puyo Puyo sun is harder to judge, because it seems to stretch itself to full screen no matter what you do.  Anyone know the best way to figure these out?

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2013, 11:43:05 am »
Quote from: rCadeGaming
...watch very closely to find the exact trigger point that causes the change.  You may find that it's actually based on the number of total lines, not the refresh rate (be sure not to confuse total lines with active lines).

oops, apologies, i should have typed total lines, not active lines. i will edit my original post

Quote from: rCadeGaming
I think it should be noted that in the case of vertical games here you're actually listing their width in terms of native video, not their height.  That's the reason for discrepancy between our lists.  Technically, everything you've list under "256, 280, and 288" is actually 224p or 240p, aside from R-Type and Kung Fu Master. In your setup it's correct to the think of their width as their height, because you're displaying vertical games on a horizontal screen (yoko).  I just think's it's important to be pointed out for anyone else reading this.

that's right, just to confirm, for my setup i am running both horizontal AND vertical games horizontally on my tv screen, because i dont want to lift my heavy 20" crt tv and rotate it manually every time i play vertical games, and also, at the moment i dont want to use two tv's (but maybe in the future i will go down that road, who knows :))

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2013, 11:47:25 am »
Quote from: rCadeGaming
...find exactly what triggers it and you'll be able to control it...

that said, i assume you dont mean you could get the tv into pal mode (more lines) but then force the refresh back up to 60hz (instead of being stuck in the pal '50hz to 55hz' range)

now that's something i'd like to see :lol

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:49:16 am by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2013, 01:26:30 pm »
that's right, just to confirm, for my setup i am running both horizontal AND vertical games horizontally on my tv screen, because i dont want to lift my heavy 20" crt tv and rotate it manually every time i play vertical games

I would say that you're still running vertical games vertically, it's just that the TV is still horizontal... but we're getting too wrapped in semantics here.  Let's just agree to use the term yoko to be clear. 

Yoko means running a vertical game on a horizontally positioned monitor so that it looks upright, and there are black borders on the left and right.  It's a very common term if you go over to the shmups forum (tons of vertical games are shmups of course), but not yet very well known over here.

that said, i assume you dont mean you could get the tv into pal mode (more lines) but then force the refresh back up to 60hz (instead of being stuck in the pal '50hz to 55hz' range)

Why would you want to?  If your TV is set to show 224 lines visible in the NTSC mode, then that's what you ought to use for 224-240 line games (as well as 480i games, which are still 240 lines per field, same thing).  The PAL mode would only be useful 254 and 256 line games, which are supposed to run around 55Hz anyway.

Ok, wait, while typing this I'm realizing that you could use it for your yoko games, duh.  Sorry, no I doubt that it could be done. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 05:23:28 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 03:01:07 pm »
Quote from: rCadeGaming

I would say that you're still running vertical games vertically, it's just that the TV is still horizontal... but we're getting too wrapped in semantics here.  Let's just agree to use the term yoko to be clear. 

yep thats it. i have to say i didnt know that term 'yoko', hopefully it will become more popular!

Quote from: rCadeGaming
Ok, wait, while typing this I'm realizing that you could use it for your yoko games, duh.  Sorry, no I doubt that it could be done.

yep :)

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2013, 05:26:00 pm »
Yeah, you can't run that many lines at 60Hz without straying too far from 15.75kHz horizontal.

Speaking of which, are you actually getting these 280 and 288 active line yoko games displayed on your TV?  You must be running them at a pretty low refresh I'm guessing?

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 06:15:44 pm »
my tv can only manage to display about 260 lines maximum.
so i am fine for the vertical 256 games running yoko....  as for the 280 and 288 games (also running yoko), i run those without scaling and just lose some of the top/bottom of the screen (eg. i've never cared about scores so dont mind if i lose the score at the top of the screen for example)

for my 256 lines modeline i have the scan rate at 16.3kHz and refresh rate at 58Hz
for my 288 lines modeline i have the scan rate at 16.3kHz and refresh rate at 57Hz

(my tv could probably handle a higher scan rate but i feel like i dont really want to go above 16.3kHz, as i notice higher scan rates might be ok when the tv has warmed up, but from cold, i can sometimes get some odd picture warping etc in eg. the corners of the screen)

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 08:28:40 pm »
jadder, are you using MAME INI's with regular MAME or GM?

I just went back to the custom modelines in VMM and GM, one for x224, other for x240 and finally another for x256.
I limited the refresh rate from 55 to 60, and scan rate up to 16.4Khz.
I downsized the vertical adjustment so that I could see all MAME screens for all generated resolutions.
When rtype is run at it's original refresh rate (x256 ~55Hz), with GM, the screen goes a few lines down. If I run commando or dkong (x256 ~60Hz) the game fits the screen.
I discovered on the service menu a way of adjusting the 16:9 geometry, I'll try to do what you did to see if the solves rtype's geometry problem.

If I force the refresh rate to be something between 58Hz and 60Hz for x256 in GM crt_range, rtype fits better but it runs at a speed of 102%. In regular MAME it says it runs at 100%, but the game is not as smooth as with GM.
Another thing I noticed is d3d in GM displays the scanlines, in regular MAME I've to use ddraw.

I thought I had a receipt... but you guys got me thinking...  :)

I could live with x240 (and x480) fitting the whole screen, some black borders for x224, and overscan in x256. Above that I could resize everything to 640x480i (pacman and alike) instead of x288 resolutions...

Right now, the best method I see for Horizontal Orientation, based on your inputs and my viewing taste, is trying to fit x240 and x480 resolutions on the TV screen. If we want to interlace everything above 240 or 256, most games will be in full screen.
I really need to have a "Worth-Playing" list, and then decide what to do

After that, I will add another walkthrough in my blog, to save time for the newbies with SCART-TV's (like me).
I think that the other method is still useful for people who have a favorite-list containing only x224 horizontal games (without Yoko).

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2013, 09:58:08 am »
i use mame.ini's yes, for each game

for my mame setup at the moment i am actually using mameuifx
reason is, i like the autofire feature (on shooters i dont want to be wearing out my fingers and gamepad continuously hitting the fire button)
i do keep my eye on the groovymame scene though as i find it interesting to see how it is progressing and growing.
mameuifx has the soundsync feature which i need to use (see below), which i believe is the same sort of thing as the groovymame syncrefresh feature

me and rCadeGaming (Rob) are a little different in the sense that Rob prefers to do things right, ie. games should be running at their exact speed, etc.  i would say i am not quite as fussy as rob, and am much more of a very casual gamer.  so as an example, for all the mame games which are 240 lines high, i only use ONE modeline for these games, which is 60hz. this means any 240 game i run is now forced to run at 60hz. this really doesnt bother me, as most games are around 60hz anyway. if i do have the odd occasion where the speed increase/decrease is a bit over the top (eg. kung fu master which should run at 55hz.. forcing that at 60hz does make the game seem a bit 'turbo'). in these cases i set up an extra modeline to deal with those games.

for any games i am forcing to run at a different speed than was designed, i dont lose any gameplay smoothness or have any sound problems, or jerky/stuttery scrolling, because i use vsync and also the soundsync (syncrefresh) feature

i have about 15 modelines i use (all low res except 2-3 interlace ones), and that covers everything i play
i use direct3d not directx directdraw (for one thing soundsync doesnt work quite right in mameuifx if you use directx)
all of my low res modelines have a horizontal size of 512.  eg. i have 512x224,  512x240,  etc
i have bilinear filter turned on and bitmap prescaling set to 1
this makes the image a little blurry, but (and this is where i differ from many other people), i prefer the look of the smoother graphics
apart from the blurring, there is no visible scaling on the horizontal or vertical (i wouldnt stand for that).. except some games like paperboy (384 lines high) where you dont really have a choice but to use scaling

so to summarise, many people would not like my setup (out of date perhaps, plus many games not running at their original speed), and there are lots of points of argument where i could be doing things better or more efficiently, but still, my setup does suit my needs. if i did start a new project in the future maybe i would try groovymame this time (i would have to figure out how to add autofire myself =) but for now, im ok with my setup. it works for me, and thats what it is all about. getting to the point where u are satisfied (which i am..    for now.... :lol)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:48:12 pm by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 10:18:49 am »
as a little side note, please note im not trying to encourage my 'out of date' way of doing things. groovymame is clearly the best solution for low res arcade monitor/crt tv users, and even now it is still progressing at a fast rate for making modelines/resolution generation more automatic and easy, even for newbies.

it's the way forward.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:21:15 am by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2013, 10:39:56 am »
as a little side note, please note im not trying to encourage my 'out of date' way of doing things. groovymame is clearly the best solution for low res arcade monitor/crt tv users, and even now it is still progressing at a fast rate for making modelines/resolution generation more automatic and easy, even for newbies.

it's the way forward.

I agree, but sometimes you need to go back to the basis to reinvent something that worked well in the past, and improve it. There are a lot of good examples from science, and sometimes with more success than the first version.
Don't forget that we are still a little stuck to XP (not the latest Microsoft OS) and to old GPU's (mainly AGP) to get good results with GroovyMame and CRT Emu Driver + VMMaker. XP will be in End-of-Support in 2014, no more drivers will be developed for new motherboards. I know Calamity is investing in Windows 7, until then we are stuck to Arcade VGA 3000 (works with Windows 7 and Windows 8 ).
Linux is maybe the best OS alternative (Groovy Distro) but things are still in a very early phase. I don't know how to edit/create a custom monitor modeline and there is no Arcade OSD Linux Package. Hope that the community will get something similar. The new Graphical PCI-express Cards are not working with Soft15Khz or CRT Emu Driver. AGP is dead. Old hardware is not suitable for GroovyMAME or other MAME release after 0.106... So we are kind of limited right now, we need to use old technology to put our projects working, even with GroovyMAME.

If we have an old PC (don't need to be very old, my AMD Sempron 3200+ with 2GB of RAM) is not suitable for GroovyMAME. You can use CRT Emu Driver (even with Ultimarc's AVGA old versions), but need to install an old MAME version (up to 0.106). AdvanceMAME doesn't work with CRT Emu Driver, it needs the original ATI driver. The best setup I got for my AMD Sempron 3200+ was AVGA2 AGP, CRT Emu Driver, VMMaker generating INI's, and MAME 0.106. Works great! I'm using this setup on my vertical cab project, still on-going (and a little bit delayed).

Now back to my current cabinet (with an Intel Core i3 and 8GB of RAM, and OEM ATI Radeon HD4350 PCI-Express, GroovyMAME runs with no problem).
Regarding the Walktrough, I'm trying to produce a setup that will fit my needs, and I'm still doing a few tests.

Right now I have in VMMaker.ini:
monitor_specs0 15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.245, 4.489, 7.482, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 288, 512

and in mame.ini (Lastest GroovyMAME 64 binary):
crt_range0                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.748, 5.496, 8.244, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 192, 224, 480, 512
crt_range1                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.245, 4.489, 7.482, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 225, 240, 480, 512

I have black borders on the x224 games, but they are acceptable. The Desktop is aligned to fit 240 and 480 resolutions.
I started with the NTSC modeline, and begun changing the modeline values while testing some resolutions on ArcadeOSD.

I'm using Maximus Arcade, and I prefer to use the the 640x288 resolution because I've no flicker on the TV (added 640x288@50Hz to reslist.txt in VMMaker). The main problem is that GroovyMAME works fine if I'm using 640x480 when lauching games, but it switches to strange resolutions when the game is launched from 640x288.
Example: GroovyMAME chooses 1234x240 for pacman when the desktop is in 640x480,  and it's acceptable. When the desktop is 640x288, GroovyMAME chooses 640x480i (no problem with that), but it's 640x480 "inside" 640x288, so the game looks very thin.

Is there a way of asking groovyMAME to switch first to 640x480, and then change the resolution again? Any Workarround for this?

I might have to create a new post for this question...  :)

I promisse that I'll update the Blog with a new walkthrough. Just need to check this out first.

Best




« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 10:50:26 am by rjpe »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2013, 11:47:10 am »
The main problem is that GroovyMAME works fine if I'm using 640x480 when lauching games, but it switches to strange resolutions when the game is launched from 640x288.
Example: GroovyMAME chooses 1234x240 for pacman when the desktop is in 640x480,  and it's acceptable. When the desktop is 640x288, GroovyMAME chooses 640x480i (no problem with that), but it's 640x480 "inside" 640x288, so the game looks very thin.

The resolution used by the desktop makes no difference in what resolution GroovyMAME will choose. There's something wrong with your setting. Please post a log here:

groovymame.exe romname -v >romname.txt
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2013, 12:10:08 pm »
So we are kind of limited right now, we need to use old technology to put our projects working, even with GroovyMAME.

The real bottle neck is the old GPU's we need to use (HD 4xxx). But these are going to be available for cheap during years. As these are PCI-e you can still pick the newest mother board and CPU for your project.

On the OS side, I predict many users going back to XP after testing CRT Emudriver for W7, despite the efforts invested. W7 may be an overall better OS than XP, but this doesn't necessarily mean it's better for an arcade machine driving a CRT monitor. I'd say W7 is a necessary evil, for future compatibility.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2013, 01:10:33 pm »
The main problem is that GroovyMAME works fine if I'm using 640x480 when lauching games, but it switches to strange resolutions when the game is launched from 640x288.
Example: GroovyMAME chooses 1234x240 for pacman when the desktop is in 640x480,  and it's acceptable. When the desktop is 640x288, GroovyMAME chooses 640x480i (no problem with that), but it's 640x480 "inside" 640x288, so the game looks very thin.

The resolution used by the desktop makes no difference in what resolution GroovyMAME will choose. There's something wrong with your setting. Please post a log here:

groovymame.exe romname -v >romname.txt

Calamity,

Attached as requested.
in 640x480 is actually choosing 1280x240 (and not 1234x240 as I wrote on the previous post).


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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2013, 01:19:59 pm »
So we are kind of limited right now, we need to use old technology to put our projects working, even with GroovyMAME.

The real bottle neck is the old GPU's we need to use (HD 4xxx). But these are going to be available for cheap during years. As these are PCI-e you can still pick the newest mother board and CPU for your project.

On the OS side, I predict many users going back to XP after testing CRT Emudriver for W7, despite the efforts invested. W7 may be an overall better OS than XP, but this doesn't necessarily mean it's better for an arcade machine driving a CRT monitor. I'd say W7 is a necessary evil, for future compatibility.

Calamity,

I had some hard time getting this GPU (I found it in DealExtreame, Hong Kong site). At a computer store (at least in my country) is not so easy to found a brand-new/boxed HD4xxx.
I really hope you are right, because we need those GPU's.
I'll try to get some more (used and new), just in case.

Regarding XP, I think that Windows 7 is much better than XP, even for Arcade. I'm glad you're investing time in W7 drivers (hope that there is going to be a 64bit version). Some new motherboards will boot almost instantaneously with 7 and not with XP. 7 runs quickly than XP. The XP drivers will stop being developed by motherboard vendors in a couple of years.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2013, 01:30:57 pm »
If what your trying to achieve is to get GM to run everything on progressive modes, do either one of this things:

- Disable the interlace option
- Change your ranges like this:

crt_range0                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.748, 5.496, 8.244, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 192, 224, 0, 0
crt_range1                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.245, 4.489, 7.482, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 225, 240, 0, 0

You were right when you said GM is picking a different resolution depending on your monitor setting. This is a special case: the resolution used by the desktop has its refresh locked, because it's a shared resource. By default it's 60 Hz. GM detects it's locked and doesn't use it for pacman because it can't adjust the refresh to 60.61 as required. So by default it would be picking 640x480, it just doesn't do in that special case because you're using it for the desktop. For this reason it's recommended using a non-standard resolution for the desktop, like 648x480.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

rjpe

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2013, 01:45:08 pm »
If what your trying to achieve is to get GM to run everything on progressive modes, do either one of this things:

- Disable the interlace option
- Change your ranges like this:

crt_range0                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.748, 5.496, 8.244, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 192, 224, 0, 0
crt_range1                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.245, 4.489, 7.482, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 225, 240, 0, 0

You were right when you said GM is picking a different resolution depending on your monitor setting. This is a special case: the resolution used by the desktop has its refresh locked, because it's a shared resource. By default it's 60 Hz. GM detects it's locked and doesn't use it for pacman because it can't adjust the refresh to 60.61 as required. So by default it would be picking 640x480, it just doesn't do in that special case because you're using it for the desktop. For this reason it's recommended using a non-standard resolution for the desktop, like 648x480.

So, if I use 640x288 I will always have this problem? There is no workaround? Maximus Arcade Works better in 640x288, all other resolutions are interlaced (above 480). There must me more users needing this.

Regarding the interlaced resolutions, I was using the "interlace" option, still experimenting and deciding if I disable interlacing or not.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2013, 01:51:54 pm »
So, if I use 640x288 I will always have this problem? There is no workaround? Maximus Arcade Works better in 640x288, all other resolutions are interlaced (above 480). There must me more users needing this.
ting and deciding if I disable interlacing or not.

??

What is exactly the problem?

I meant the problem is actually when you use 640x480 for the desktop, because this can't be used then for pacman. The supposed behaviour, with your current mame.ini settings, is to run pacman at 640x480. It just can't be done when your desktop is at 640x480 too.

In other words, you're just getting 1280x240 by accident.

How do you want pacman to be run?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 01:53:31 pm by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2013, 02:00:13 pm »
So, if I use 640x288 I will always have this problem? There is no workaround? Maximus Arcade Works better in 640x288, all other resolutions are interlaced (above 480). There must me more users needing this.
ting and deciding if I disable interlacing or not.

??

What is exactly the problem?

I meant the problem is actually when you use 640x480 for the desktop, because this can't be used then for pacman. The supposed behaviour, with your current mame.ini settings, is to run pacman at 640x480. It just can't be done when your desktop is at 640x480 too.

In other words, you're just getting 1280x240 by accident.

How do you want pacman to be run?

Understood! But that's strange then... the resolutions looked better when using 640x480 for the desktop  ;D
In that case, why does 640x480 looks so "thin" when launching a game in 640x288? I'm really missing something here...
When using regular mame for pacman in 640x480, I see a normal sized pacman screen, with groovyMAME looks 2/3 of that in width... might be some option I changed in mame.ini (changed lot of stuff back and forward).


« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 02:06:22 pm by rjpe »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2013, 02:03:43 pm »
At a computer store (at least in my country) is not so easy to found a brand-new/boxed HD4xxx.

The situation is quite the same here. We're neighbours :)
ebay / second hand is your friend.

Quote
Regarding XP, I think that Windows 7 is much better than XP, even for Arcade. I'm glad you're investing time in W7 drivers (hope that there is going to be a 64bit version). Some new motherboards will boot almost instantaneously with 7 and not with XP. 7 runs quickly than XP. The XP drivers will stop being developed by motherboard vendors in a couple of years.

Windows 7 is newer, that's a fact. It's probably the best OS done by Microsoft. Better, of course, for your i7 laptop. Better for arcade? That's arguable. It does have some pros, but many, many cons.

I have a quadruple boot setup here: XP 32 / 64, W7 32 / 64. Believe when I say W7 is NOT any faster, at least on this system. It's certainly slower at certain areas. ATI drivers for W7 will freeze the system for 10 seconds on boot, as soon as you use a decent list of custom modes. If SSD is the reason you want to move to W7, think it twice, you'll be wasting your money.

XP drivers won't be developed any more soon, but this is a tragedy. This doesn't make W7 better per se.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Calamity

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2013, 02:12:48 pm »
Understood! But that's strange then... the resolutions looked better when using 640x480 for the desktop  ;D

If you mean that pacman looks better at 1280x240 than 640x480, then intentionally set your system to use progressive modes only :)

Quote
In that case, why does 640x480 looks so "thin" when launching a game in 640x288? I'm really missing something here...

By default GroovyMAME makes vertical games look at real 3:4 proportions when using stretched modes. In other words, 1280x240 and 640x480 should show the same proportions.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 02:14:44 pm by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2013, 02:18:03 pm »
When using regular mame for pacman in 640x480, I see a normal sized pacman screen, with groovyMAME looks 2/3 of that in width... might be some option I changed in mame.ini (changed lot of stuff back and forward).

I have tested vertical games thoroughly and this wouldn't happen unless you modify some options. Enter the .\cfg folder and delete the contents, specifically pacman.cfg, to remove any aspect option you might have set.

Try starting from a fresh mame.ini too, generated from GM.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2013, 02:20:12 pm »
Ok, I'll do it asap.

At a computer store (at least in my country) is not so easy to found a brand-new/boxed HD4xxx.

The situation is quite the same here. We're neighbours :)
ebay / second hand is your friend.

Quote
Regarding XP, I think that Windows 7 is much better than XP, even for Arcade. I'm glad you're investing time in W7 drivers (hope that there is going to be a 64bit version). Some new motherboards will boot almost instantaneously with 7 and not with XP. 7 runs quickly than XP. The XP drivers will stop being developed by motherboard vendors in a couple of years.

Windows 7 is newer, that's a fact. It's probably the best OS done by Microsoft. Better, of course, for your i7 laptop. Better for arcade? That's arguable. It does have some pros, but many, many cons.

I have a quadruple boot setup here: XP 32 / 64, W7 32 / 64. Believe when I say W7 is NOT any faster, at least on this system. It's certainly slower at certain areas. ATI drivers for W7 will freeze the system for 10 seconds on boot, as soon as you use a decent list of custom modes. If SSD is the reason you want to move to W7, think it twice, you'll be wasting your money.

XP drivers won't be developed any more soon, but this is a tragedy. This doesn't make W7 better per se.

The main reason I say it's better, it's because it's faster, emulation needs fast processing. I think that the best OS right now is XP64 (it's XP and can use more than 3GB of RAM).
I didn't adventure myself in W7 for Arcade yet, I'll do it after your drivers are available for download.  :)

Yep, we're neighbors  :D, GPU problems are the same, but you've got much better Arcade Parts options than me.
One thing I can't find here is T-Molding (or there)... I'm asking a friend that goes frequently to the USA to bring a few feet.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2013, 03:52:08 pm »
for my mame setup at the moment i am actually using mameuifx
reason is, i like the autofire feature (on shooters i dont want to be wearing out my fingers and gamepad continuously hitting the fire button)

I'm actually working on using an Arduino to control adjustable, v-sync timed turbo fire buttons.  Doing it in software is convenient, but does not help me with console games and real PCB's.  There are simpler hardware solutions like just wiring up a 555-timer chip and a potentiometer with a nice knob to adjust fire rate.  You could look into that to help get you away from UIFX.

mameuifx has the soundsync feature which i need to use (see below), which i believe is the same sort of thing as the groovymame syncrefresh feature

Actually, syncrefresh just means that the emulation of the game is synchronized to the graphics card's output refresh rate, meaning game speed is determined by refresh rate.  This is what I was talking about with matching output refresh rate to native.  You need to do this for proper frame per frame emulation, and there's no point in matching refresh rates without enabling syncrefresh. 

This is available in standard vanilla mame as an alternative to waitvsync and triplebuffer right here:

http://cdn.wikimg.net/strategywiki/images/thumb/4/4c/MAME_Properties_Advanced.PNG/180px-MAME_Properties_Advanced.PNG

Using only syncrefresh is the best option for minimum input lag (aside from just using none of those three, but that results in tearing as Calamity pointed out).  Calamity has improved syncrefresh in GroovyMAME, which, along with a few other improved and added features, allows for even less lag while using it.

Anyhow, UIFX's soundsync is not analogous to syncrefresh, but GroovyMAME does also have a sound sync feature.

Come to think of it, I'm guessing you're already using syncrefresh, as you're forcing incorrect game speeds.  I'm guessing you're just not familiar with the term syncrefresh because you set it via that window pictured.  I normally do things through the gui where possible as well.  triplebuffer, syncrefresh, and waitvsync, are just the terms used in ini files.  In those cases where game speed is noticeably off, it might be better for you to use waitvsync.  Everything should still look the same graphically, but game speed would no longer be off.

i use direct3d not directx (for one thing soundsync doesnt work quite right in mameuifx if you use directx)

By directx, you mean directdraw.  You might not need soundsync if you're not forcing incorrect game speeds, that's probably the biggest cause of audio stuttering.

i use direct3d...
all of my low res modelines have a horizontal size of 512.  eg. i have 512x224,  512x240,  etc
i have bilinear filter turned on and bitmap prescaling set to 1
this makes the image a little blurry, but (and this is where i differ from many other people), i prefer the look of the smoother graphics
apart from the blurring, there is no visible scaling on the horizontal or vertical (i wouldnt stand for that)

Well, with those settings you've got horizontal scaling going on at all times, and it will be uneven scaling unless native width is 256 pixels.  I'm guessing you just mean it's not visible due to the bilinear filtering blurring things together?

At a computer store (at least in my country) is not so easy to found a brand-new/boxed HD4xxx.

The situation is quite the same here. We're neighbours :)
ebay / second hand is your friend.

Yup.  You can commonly find HD4350's on the US eBay listings for $20, and most sellers will ship internationally.  I wouldn't worry about getting brand new.  All the ones I've gotten have been used, but still in the box and in very nice condition.  With the silent cards, there's no fan to wear out, and silent is great for a cab.

I've been stockpiling these because they're cheap and common right now.  My hope is that if I pick up a bunch of them, it will be enough to keep my cabs running for the rest of my life.  I'm doing the same thing with CRT TV's.  In the future, there should be a point at which the last of the motherboards that can work with XP (or PCIe, whichever dies first) are also very cheap.  That will be the time to stockpile those, and compatible processors, RAM, etc.[/tinfoilhat]

I'm hoping that PC's will be plenty fast enough for anything I could possibly need for MAME at that point.  I'm not really concerned with emulating much that needs a huge amount of power anyhow.  I'm not interested in console emulation at all, as I stick to real hardware wherever I can, and I don't really care to emulate many arcade games that came out after the turn of the millennium, as that was about the point that console ports generally started becoming superior to the arcade versions.  A lot of them had extra features that I wouldn't want to miss, the most important being online play.

Of course it's possible that more and more power will be need for further improved emulation accuracy and further reduced input lag.  Time will tell.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2013, 08:46:02 pm »
Quote from: rCadeGaming
Come to think of it, I'm guessing you're already using syncrefresh, as you're forcing incorrect game speeds.  I'm guessing you're just not familiar with the term syncrefresh because you set it via that window pictured.  I normally do things through the gui where possible as well.  triplebuffer, syncrefresh, and waitvsync, are just the terms used in ini files.  In those cases where game speed is noticeably off, it might be better for you to use waitvsync.  Everything should still look the same graphically, but game speed would no longer be off.

for the record at the moment i have set in mameuifx throttle off, soundsync on, waitvsync on
thats all i use, no syncrefresh or refresh speed

Quote from: rCadeGaming
By directx, you mean directdraw.

oops, correct

Quote from: rCadeGaming
Well, with those settings you've got horizontal scaling going on at all times, and it will be uneven scaling unless native width is 256 pixels.  I'm guessing you just mean it's not visible due to the bilinear filtering blurring things together?

thats right, i do have uneven horizontal scaling going on but you cant see it due to the bilinear filter. it does make the gfx blurrier then normal but i just kinda like that to be honest (its not too much blur, eg. its certainly not as bad as the blur you get from using interlace modes)

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:02:53 pm by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2013, 09:00:40 pm »
for the record at the moment i have set in mameuifx throttle off, soundsync on, waitvsync on

And game speed is still tied to refresh rate?  I'm guessing that soundsync is causing that.

thats right, i do have uneven horizontal scaling going on but you cant see it due to the bilinear filter.

Looking at the Newbie TV walkthrough thread I'm realizing this is another conversation we've already had... Dave.  My mind is going.  I can feel it.

Anyhow, you were talking about adjusting the aspect ratio settings there to adjust horizontal width.  If you're okay with uneven scaling, why don't you just use the slider controls to adjust horizontal width.  Were they not it UIFX or something?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:16:57 pm by rCadeGaming »