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Author Topic: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy  (Read 19155 times)

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TacticalChaos

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Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« on: February 11, 2013, 06:47:07 pm »
I was wondering if anyone knows how accurate the force feedback is compared to the original machines on the M2 Emulator. I personally have no clue since I haven't even seen one of the original machines in years, but Daytona and Sega Rally seem to be ok where as indy 500, over rev and gt24 seem to have a "stuttering" or not smooth force effect that doesn't seem right (and quite annoying). Like driving a car with a messed up tire every time you turn. Perhaps there's something in the settings that would fix that. FYI I use a Logitech driving force GT.

Jollywest

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 04:18:04 pm »
I came across this issue in my build. For me it seemed to be a conflict between the Emulator FFB settings and the Software FFB settings of my hardware. I'm using a happ wheel / immersion pcb setup though.
I can't confirm for definate as I'm away from my cab, but I think I set the centering effect in the Model 2 Emulator .ini right down or off, allowing the hardware drivers to control it. Maybe you could try something similar.

isamu

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 07:45:25 am »
I came across this issue in my build. For me it seemed to be a conflict between the Emulator FFB settings and the Software FFB settings of my hardware. I'm using a happ wheel / immersion pcb setup though.
I can't confirm for definate as I'm away from my cab, but I think I set the centering effect in the Model 2 Emulator .ini right down or off, allowing the hardware drivers to control it. Maybe you could try something similar.

Thanks JW. This is an interesting tip. I will try this later on, because I can't seem to get hardly any centering spring force in Daytona at all on my ECCI 7000 wheel. All other effects are fine. Ini file parameters for centering spring is:

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=10000      ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=10   ;10%

Windows/Immersion Touchsense settings are 100% for "Spring Gain", so I don't get it.

Jollywest

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 08:06:55 am »
I came across this issue in my build. For me it seemed to be a conflict between the Emulator FFB settings and the Software FFB settings of my hardware. I'm using a happ wheel / immersion pcb setup though.
I can't confirm for definate as I'm away from my cab, but I think I set the centering effect in the Model 2 Emulator .ini right down or off, allowing the hardware drivers to control it. Maybe you could try something similar.

Thanks JW. This is an interesting tip. I will try this later on, because I can't seem to get hardly any centering spring force in Daytona at all on my ECCI 7000 wheel. All other effects are fine. Ini file parameters for centering spring is:

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=10000      ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=10   ;10%

Windows/Immersion Touchsense settings are 100% for "Spring Gain", so I don't get it.

Hi again Isamu,
I forgot about this thread. I will definitely have a look at my M2 ini settings and Touchsense settings tonight and post them here.
The originally stated problem by TacticalChaos, didn't affect Daytona for me though, so that maybe just a Touchsense setting that needs changing.
One other thing, the M2 emu doesn't allow for game specific settings in the ini, only global.
The work-around for this is to setup different ini's for each game and use batch files to rename the ini file you need to emulator.ini on game startup.
Again I'll post an example tonight.

Jollywest

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 03:25:21 pm »
Ok here are the .ini file FFB settings I use for each SM2 Driving game, I've also attached a pic of the Touchsense settings I use.

Please note that these settings are for a HAPP FFB Wheel and Immersion Touchsense FFB PCB setup, So may not be right for other setups.

DAYTONA

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=0.5       ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=5000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0    ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000      ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-2.0      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000

SEGA RALLY

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=5.0      ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0   ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=0.5      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-0.5      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=5.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000

SEGA TOURING CAR

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=0.5       ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=9000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0    ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=0.5      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=5000   ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-0.5      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=5000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=5.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000

OVER REV

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=1.0       ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=500   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0    ;0.0%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=-3.0      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000      ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=3.0      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000

INDY 500

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=0.5       ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=3000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0    ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000      ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-2.0      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=5.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000

SUPER GT 24H

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=0.5       ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=5000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0   ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=1.5      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000      ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-1.5      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000

---

To be continued...

Jollywest

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 03:26:17 pm »
continued...

HOW I USE MULTIPLE SM2 INI FILES

I have a seperate ini file for each game in my SM2 root folder, for eg;

daytona.ini
srallyc.ini
stcc.ini
overrev.ini
indy500.ini
sgt24h.ini

Each ini file has the FFB settings stated in the previous post, as well as the non-FFB settings from the original emulator.ini file.

The basic idea is to rename the specific game ini file to emulator.ini just before the SM2 Emu launches.
Then once the SM2 Emu closes to rename the file back from emulator.ini to the specific game ini filename.

There are probably quite a few ways to do this, I did it as follows but please note that the way I did it is totally specific to my system/setup.
So use as a guide only.

I actually used an AutoHotKey Script as well as a Batch file I mentioned in a previous post.

Here is the script for Daytona;

Sleep 200
WinHide, HyperSpin
SetWorkingDir, C:\Emulation\SM2
FileDelete, emulator.ini                                                                                 ;deletes the original emulator.ini if it is still there
Sleep 1000
FileMove, C:\Emulation\SM2\daytona.ini, C:\Emulation\SM2\emulator.ini     ;renames daytona.ini to emulator.ini
Sleep 2000
Run C:\Emulation\SM2\bat\daytona.bat                                                       ;runs the specific game [SEE BELOW **BATCH FILE]
Sleep 3000
Process, WaitClose, emulator_multicpu.exe                                                 
Sleep 3000
WinShow, HyperSpin
Sleep 200
WinActivate, HyperSpin
Sleep 1000
FileMove, C:\Emulation\SM2\emulator.ini, C:\Emulation\SM2\daytona.ini     ;renames emulator.ini back to daytona.ini

I amended the script to work with each game by changing the word daytona to the other game specific ini filename, for eg;

srallyc
stcc
overrev
indy500
sgt24h

I converted the scripts to .exe using AutoHotKey and placed them in a SM2 root subfolder named exe.

I then run this exe through my Frontend... HyperSpin, in my case (see attachment) to run each game.

---

**BATCH FILE

I created a batch file for each game and placed them in a SM2 root subfolder named bat.

This is daytona.bat;

start /min emulator_multicpu.exe daytona

This starts Daytona but also minimizes the SM2 Emu GUI.

Obviously the romname at the end of the command line needed to be changed for each game, for eg;

Sega Rally - start /min emulator_multicpu.exe srallyc
Sega Touring Car - start /min emulator_multicpu.exe stcc
Over Rev - start /min emulator_multicpu.exe overrev
Indy 500 - start /min emulator_multicpu.exe indy500
Super GT 24H - start /min emulator_multicpu.exe sgt24h

I did try to incorporate the command to start and minimize the SM2 Emu in the script without the need for a batch file, but couldn't get it too work as I wanted.
Someone more script-literate than myself may be able to do it though  ;)

« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:19:39 pm by Jollywest »

isamu

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 07:25:45 am »
Thanks a bunch, much appreciated JW  :cheers:  Very different ini file ffb settings than mine. Interesting. I think by having the centering gain set 10000, I may have rendered the effect null and that's probably why I am not feeling it. Interesting that you have yours so low.   

Oh and just to confirm, the Immersion Touchsense Software you're using is the same as mine. In fact, I recently discovered that my ECCI ffb wheel uses the exact SAME ffb Immersion board that most Happ wheel users use. Wild.

By the way, quick question regarding Indy 500 and Sega Rally....are  you getting graphical issues in some of the textures? I get several glitchy looking textures in both games, and I'm running version 1.0

I will certainly try those settings on my end, and see how they feel and report back tomorrow. Cheers  :afro:

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 09:29:42 am »
Oh and just to confirm, the Immersion Touchsense Software you're using is the same as mine. In fact, I recently discovered that my ECCI ffb wheel uses the exact SAME ffb Immersion board that most Happ wheel users use. Wild.

ECCI bought the boards from Global VR parts department.  ;)
Global VR caught on and now require you to return a non-working one to them or else pay a core charge.
I can understand. A $7,000 cab is enough of a hard sell, even worse if spare parts are out of stock.

Jollywest

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 09:42:30 am »

By the way, quick question regarding Indy 500 and Sega Rally....are  you getting graphical issues in some of the textures? I get several glitchy looking textures in both games, and I'm running version 1.0


I'm also using version 1.0 but I don't get any gfx glitches in those 2 games. Perhaps it's a gpu issue, I use a ATI HD 4650, which card are you using?

I'll post the rest of my ini file for the 2 games tonight, incase it is settings related.

isamu

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 09:51:35 am »

ECCI bought the boards from Global VR parts department.  ;)
Global VR caught on and now require you to return a non-working one to them or else pay a core charge.
I can understand. A $7,000 cab is enough of a hard sell, even worse if spare parts are out of stock.

Hehe  :lol



By the way, quick question regarding Indy 500 and Sega Rally....are  you getting graphical issues in some of the textures? I get several glitchy looking textures in both games, and I'm running version 1.0


I'm also using version 1.0 but I don't get any gfx glitches in those 2 games. Perhaps it's a gpu issue, I use a ATI HD 4650, which card are you using?

I'll post the rest of my ini file for the 2 games tonight, incase it is settings related.

Intel Core i7 950 OC'ed @ 4.0Ghz
Nvidia GTX 680 4GB
6GB DDR3 Ram

Might be an ini file setting. Will do some experimenting...

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 12:36:46 pm »
OK guys a brief update.... no numerical setting whatsoever solves the center spring problem. I've tried setting the centering gain setting from 0.1 to 0.9 to 10.0 to 10000 and everything in between, and still my wheel feel doesn't self center with any reasonable strength in Daytona. In Sega Rally it's a tad better but not by much. Weird. I think it may just be the way the emu talks to my wheel. Oh well, not a big deal, as the remaining ffb effects(friction, vibration, etc) are exceptional.

As for the glitchy/weird looking textures I was experiencing in Indy and Sega Rally, I discovered it was the FakeGouraud setting. It was at 1 so I put it at 0 and it looks normal now. No worries.

Anyway the only other problem I have is the emulator not acknowledging my brake pedal in the analog brake pedal config menu. It sees my gas pedal axis and my clutch pedal axis but not my brake. My brake pedal is called "JOY3_SLIDER1_POS". Model 2 emu doesn't list this in the drop down menu unfortunately. I wish there was an ini file to set these controls up. Any suggestions? :(

Jollywest

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 12:45:31 pm »
Not sure about the brake issue but have you tried tinkering with in game motor service menu settings for the centering problem?

Edit

Just thought do you have the pedals combined option checked in the touchsense settings for the brake prob?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 12:47:05 pm by Jollywest »

isamu

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2013, 12:55:59 pm »
Not sure about the brake issue but have you tried tinkering with in game motor service menu settings for the centering problem?

Edit

Just thought do you have the pedals combined option checked in the touchsense settings for the brake prob?

Yeah it's on combined and still no dice.

You mentioned the "in game motor service menu settings"....is this the standard in-game test menu? If so, I don't see a motor service sub-menu....? Let me check again

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2013, 01:05:53 pm »
Not sure about the brake then. The test menu yea, not sure if its called motor menu, it might be input or something. I just remember having to move the wheel left and right and centering it. I'll have a look myself tonight after work.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2013, 01:24:17 pm »
isamu, weren't you using a custom driver to force centering feedback in games that didn't have it?

isamu

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 01:51:34 pm »
isamu, weren't you using a custom driver to force centering feedback in games that didn't have it?

Yeah that was for emulators that don't support true force feedback but supports xinput. Since this M2 emu supports proper arcade cabinet ffb, there's no need to use that custom dll file. It would probably center my wheel pretty good, but it won't deliver true arcade force feedback effects.

Anyway Jolly, I found it mate! It's called drive board settings or something like that. It allows you to increase the ffb strength, but in all honesty I think the ini file settings probably override those ones. Furthermore, those in-game sub-menu ffb settings don't save for some strange reason, so i have to redo them every time. Am I missing something? I thought the test menu settings were to supposed to be saved in this emu?


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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 01:59:13 pm »
It should save the settings after changing them just the once. Have you got a subfolder in your sm2 root folder called nvram?

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 03:09:48 pm »
Right I'm at home now so less of a guessing game  ;)

Forget the last post of mine.

Do you have a subfolder in your SM2 root folder called NVDATA?  ::)

If no - create it and try to save settings in test menu again

if yes - delete the daytona dat file and try to save settings in test menu again

---

Check out the attached pic of more Touchsense settings, I only have throttle & brake but I have them checked to work separately... Try that.

---

I've also attached the rest of my Indy 500 and Sega Rally ini files incase they are needed.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 03:19:57 pm by Jollywest »

isamu

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 04:42:23 pm »
Right I'm at home now so less of a guessing game  ;)

Forget the last post of mine.

Do you have a subfolder in your SM2 root folder called NVDATA?  ::)

If no - create it and try to save settings in test menu again

if yes - delete the daytona dat file and try to save settings in test menu again

---

Check out the attached pic of more Touchsense settings, I only have throttle & brake but I have them checked to work separately... Try that.

---

I've also attached the rest of my Indy 500 and Sega Rally ini files incase they are needed.

OK as far as the pedals go, I know what it is and I should have clarified....I am using a *separate* set of USB pedals, not the ones for my specific wheel. The ones I am using are called CST Pedals and they have a gas, brake and clutch pedal. These pedals do not have any option within the windows menu to combine their axis. Therefore the model 2 emulator does not see my brake analog axis called "JOY3_SLIDER1_POS". It only sees the clutch and gas. It's unfortunate but I doubt there's anything that can be done unless El Semi(or perhaps Howard?) adds an option for this axis into the emu :( :( :(

As far as the NVDATA folder goes, yuo, it's there....however something strange is happening. Model 2 emulator no longer writes to that folder. I don't know why but it does not create a data file. Gonna see if I can figure out what's wrong.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 05:09:57 pm »
OK, I got it to write a DAT file in the NVDATA folder. Had to set the folder and check "read only"

Jolly/Badmouth let me ask you guys a question....in the "Drive BD Test" sub-menu within Daytona USA, there are different force effect categories you can highlight and increase one by one. Each effect allows you to step up their strength by up to 8 dots or "stars". Are these settings supposed to carry over during gameplay? Because every time I move the effect slider to 8 dots, and exit and re-enter the test menu, the effects are all reset back to 1 dot. Is this normal?

Furthermore, in that same sub-menu, you know how the word "Spring" is the first effect in the list? Well, it's also the only effect that doesn't have any dots or stars beneath it that allow you to adjust back and forth. All the other effect categories have these dots/stars. But not spring. Is this how it is on you guys' end?

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 05:34:02 pm »
Just checked it and yea same mate. Looks like it is just a test menu that one, that doesn't carry out in gameplay.

I about stumped as to your issues at this point. It seems the only tweakable variations in this case can be done either by the ini file or by the touchsense settings, and if you've exhausted those possibilities then I'm not sure what else you can try.

I'll have a think and sleep on it tonight though.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 09:38:38 pm »
OK, I got it to write a DAT file in the NVDATA folder. Had to set the folder and check "read only"

Jolly/Badmouth let me ask you guys a question....in the "Drive BD Test" sub-menu within Daytona USA, there are different force effect categories you can highlight and increase one by one. Each effect allows you to step up their strength by up to 8 dots or "stars". Are these settings supposed to carry over during gameplay? Because every time I move the effect slider to 8 dots, and exit and re-enter the test menu, the effects are all reset back to 1 dot. Is this normal?

Furthermore, in that same sub-menu, you know how the word "Spring" is the first effect in the list? Well, it's also the only effect that doesn't have any dots or stars beneath it that allow you to adjust back and forth. All the other effect categories have these dots/stars. But not spring. Is this how it is on you guys' end?

I hadn't messed with that menu much before.  Tinkered with it now on my laptop and it doesn't have anything under "spring".
It also didn't even save those settings when re-entering the service menu again before exiting the emulator.
Total speculation, but I'd guess that the drive board emulation isn't really complete.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 01:26:22 am »
Yeah it's OK Jolly...no big deal mate. Still get good enough ffb effects other than the spring so it's cool.

Badmouth....

Total speculation, but I'd guess that the drive board emulation isn't really complete.

I have been thinking this for the longest time. Despite what Peobo claims, I am confident that El Semi did not emulate the spring effect 100% properly. If he did there is little doubt in my mind that my wheel would center itself properly in the game. Super Model has NO problem doing this. In fact, if anything I had to turn my center spring DOWN in Daytona 2 because it was too strong!

I hate to say it but it's too bad ES abandonded this emu. Because quite frankly it could still use some work in the control ffb emulation department and isn't quite up to the work NIK did on Supermodel.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 09:29:05 pm »
In this regard I'll remind you that FF on sega racers does not work the same way as FF on a generic pc wheel or any wheel hooked up for pc use. 

It is quite possible that the m2 games don't have a center spring on the software end, rather some sort of hardware (physical spring or hard-coded data on the i/o board) did the centering. 


Generally when FF is added to a emulator about 50-75% of it is using the actual game data, and the rest is a pc-specific hack/mod. 


That being said, daytona, and just daytona seems to be hacked up a bit.  I can read the memory locations of where the output data is supposed to be on the other racers and find it, but not on the daytona games.  It could be that the data was re-routed to the FF functions, but if so why only do it for daytona and not the others?


Spring centering is a very simple thing to enable via direct input though... it's literally two lines of code.  If Model 2 is running in non-exclusive mode a little app could easily be written to turn it on.  I'm not sure if model 2 would override the settings or not, but considering I use mamehooker to send FF effects while mame is actively polling the joystick, I doubt it.  That is the other option btw... to fully externalize FF effects and have mamehooker deal with them.  I've gotten most of the games mapped out the new troubleshooter app. 

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 10:48:39 am »
In this regard I'll remind you that FF on sega racers does not work the same way as FF on a generic pc wheel or any wheel hooked up for pc use. 

It is quite possible that the m2 games don't have a center spring on the software end, rather some sort of hardware (physical spring or hard-coded data on the i/o board) did the centering.

Very interesting info and thanks for that clarification Howard. I was unaware and should have taken into account that this is a real possibility.


Quote
That being said, daytona, and just daytona seems to be hacked up a bit.  I can read the memory locations of where the output data is supposed to be on the other racers and find it, but not on the daytona games.  It could be that the data was re-routed to the FF functions, but if so why only do it for daytona and not the others?


Great detective work! I bet is *is* in fact, hacked up a bit like you say. Would it be possible to gain access to the code and maybe "glue" the ffb effects back together properly?


Quote
Spring centering is a very simple thing to enable via direct input though... it's literally two lines of code.  If Model 2 is running in non-exclusive mode a little app could easily be written to turn it on.  I'm not sure if model 2 would override the settings or not, but considering I use mamehooker to send FF effects while mame is actively polling the joystick, I doubt it.

Interesting that you mentioned this....that is exactly what the app Racer_S gave me does, only difference is it's for xinput not directInput. Badmouth asked me a couple days ago if I had an app that delivers center spring in all non-ffb racing games and I told him yes. Well, to follow up on that, I should have mentioned that I actually tried that xinput center spring dll app in Model 2 emu and it didn't work. I made sure xinput was set to 1 and the upon starting the emu, there was no initialize beep sound, which is supposed to indicate that the dll file has been activated. Quite strange if you ask me. But that leads me to my other point....

Howard...can I ask you a big favor? Would you be willing to take a look at this xinput ffb spring/inertia effect dll file and convert it to DirectInput? All I'm asking for is a dll file that does what this does....take exclusive hold of any game/program that supports DirectInput, and apply the center and inertia spring effects that are set according to how I set them in the corresponding ini file that accompanies the app. This would in turn allow me to apply centering spring and inertia ffb effects not only to Model 2 emu, but more importantly to MAME, which I've been wanting for a long long time!

You guys may be asking yourself, why I simply don't turn the center spring "Always On" effect slider all the way up so I can get good spring resistance via Immersion Touchsense menu. Well the answer is simple...even with the spring slider turned all the way up, the motor on my wheel is too powerful for that spring slider. There is *some* resistance there, but the wheel still feels way too soft or "limp". The center spring app Racer_S wrote for me helps this tremendously. Problem is, Racer_S has gone MIA.

Howard if you can convert or write from scratch a new ffb DInput dll file that does what my current xinput one does, that would be fantastic.  :cheers:

I am attaching the dll file as well as the ini file that contains all tweakable settings for anyone that wants to check it out for themselves. Works great *IF* your game supports xinput only.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2013, 11:15:05 am »
Well a dll is a way to do it, but I don't think that it's the best way.

The spring setting is just that, a setting,... it isn't something that has to be constantly changed. 

How directinput usually works:

1.  DX and DI are initalized

2.  Settings (such as deazones, calibrations ect and yes spring centering) are applied to found joysticks

3.  The joystick is polled in the game loop and/or the joystick sends an event notification to the window.
3b.  Again, within the game loop Force effects, if any, are loaded or tweaked as needed

4.  Game closes, all the DX stuff is destroyed.   

Now as it relates to us, this is a very good thing.  Direct Input allows you to change settings for a joystick at any time.  Since normally the spring setting is only set at the start of a game, we can just set it to something else later.  It won't interfere with model 2 and (hopefully) it won't get set back, so there isn't any need to override the entire dll, which takes a lot of time and effort to write. 

For the record I know nothing about FF in xinput though.  I wasn't even aware that they had figured out how to control wheels with xinput actually.  News to me!

I don't know if this fix would help you with your particular problem though.  Center Spring is just a generic bit of math applied to real effects.  If your wheel motors are so strong that they override the spring, then your effects are set too high.  Not much I can do about that.  Now fancy racers will fake a center spring manually by applying custom math to their effects, but that's well about my pay grade.  I'm too stupid to do that kind of math.  ;)

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2013, 11:39:33 am »
Well a dll is a way to do it, but I don't think that it's the best way.

The spring setting is just that, a setting,... it isn't something that has to be constantly changed. 

How directinput usually works:

1.  DX and DI are initalized

2.  Settings (such as deazones, calibrations ect and yes spring centering) are applied to found joysticks

3.  The joystick is polled in the game loop and/or the joystick sends an event notification to the window.
3b.  Again, within the game loop Force effects, if any, are loaded or tweaked as needed

4.  Game closes, all the DX stuff is destroyed.   

Now as it relates to us, this is a very good thing.  Direct Input allows you to change settings for a joystick at any time.  Since normally the spring setting is only set at the start of a game, we can just set it to something else later.  It won't interfere with model 2 and (hopefully) it won't get set back, so there isn't any need to override the entire dll, which takes a lot of time and effort to write. 

For the record I know nothing about FF in xinput though.  I wasn't even aware that they had figured out how to control wheels with xinput actually.  News to me!

I don't know if this fix would help you with your particular problem though.  Center Spring is just a generic bit of math applied to real effects.  If your wheel motors are so strong that they override the spring, then your effects are set too high.  Not much I can do about that.  Now fancy racers will fake a center spring manually by applying custom math to their effects, but that's well about my pay grade.  I'm too stupid to do that kind of math.  ;)

I wouldn't say the effects are too high, it's just that Immersion appears to have too low of a threshold for the amount of spring strength it delivers to the wheel. As you can see with that xinput dll file however, this can be rectified.

If you would like a good game to test the file on, try F-ZeroGX in Dolphin, or use the LilyPad plugin in PCSX2 for testing. Works great in games like Ridge Racer V. All I'm asking is that you take a look at and see what you can do. An dll file is ideal I think, because all it does is engage upon starting the game, without the need to  start up  application ie Mame Hooker before running it. You just start the game and bam instant actuvation. Let me know what you come it with man  :)

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2013, 01:59:15 pm »
The problem with a dll is what you are doing is hooking the real xinput dll.  What that means is you ahve to expose every single solitary function that xinput supports and pass it on to the real dll.  That's no small feat. 

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2013, 02:40:50 pm »
The problem with a dll is what you are doing is hooking the real xinput dll.  What that means is you ahve to expose every single solitary function that xinput supports and pass it on to the real dll.  That's no small feat.

I see Howard. So in other words it's not as simple as converting it from Xinput to DInput by just altering a few lines of code.

How about this....Will we be able to accomplish this with MameHooker then? Will MH have it's own center spring and inertia effect that we will be able to apply to our wheels, and then keep the effect running while playing other emulators? Having MH grab our wheels in exclusive mode so that Model 2 or MAME doesn't take over? If so, how much adjustment will we have with the effects? Can we make the spring as strong or stiff as we want?

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2013, 06:30:55 pm »
I can't give you a definate answer on those details yet.  I've got to get the latest release of MH out the door first and then we can test.

The only thing I can tell you is that I can change the spring toggle and it's force value and it should remain unchanged. 

Also just for clarification, MH is a resident taskbar app... you never have to launch it, as it should be in your startup menu.  ;)  Mind you I have it setup so that you can launch it manually, but very few people use it that way. 

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2013, 10:34:03 pm »
I can't give you a definate answer on those details yet.  I've got to get the latest release of MH out the door first and then we can test.

The only thing I can tell you is that I can change the spring toggle and it's force value and it should remain unchanged. 

Also just for clarification, MH is a resident taskbar app... you never have to launch it, as it should be in your startup menu.  ;)  Mind you I have it setup so that you can launch it manually, but very few people use it that way.

OK Howard that sounds good dude! Much appreciate your honest answers and explanation. Let us know when you get it released, I'll be happy to conduct those tests  :cheers:

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2013, 09:22:52 am »
Ok here are the .ini file FFB settings I use for each SM2 Driving game, I've also attached a pic of the Touchsense settings I use.

Please note that these settings are for a HAPP FFB Wheel and Immersion Touchsense FFB PCB setup, So may not be right for other setups.

DAYTONA

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=0.5       ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=5000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000   ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=0    ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0      ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000   ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000      ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-2.0      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=2.0      ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000   ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000



works great!!

i had to deactivate the option for centering in the control panal settings.

now its perfect!

i still need to test your other FF cfg in the other games THANKS!!

Let`s Go Away!!

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2013, 03:32:44 pm »
I am having the very same issue.

I use a Fanatec CSR Elite. I am wondering if the Drive board ROM dump / insertion is incorrect as all teh affected games use the same Drive board, where Daytona uses a different one.

FYI - Daytona Perfect - SR & Indy Very bad.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2013, 06:48:29 pm »
I am having the very same issue.

I use a Fanatec CSR Elite. I am wondering if the Drive board ROM dump / insertion is incorrect as all teh affected games use the same Drive board, where Daytona uses a different one.

FYI - Daytona Perfect - SR & Indy Very bad.

Yeah I played it some more yesterday. We can't figure out whether the lack of spring tension is a result of the real arcade machine having a physical spring inside the cabinet, or if it's just the drive board not being emulated properly. Enquiring minds want to know.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 07:56:02 pm »
I own all the machines. There is no spring as far as Im aware in the Wheel Assemblies. They are all Motor and particle clutch.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 09:32:23 pm »
I own all the machines. There is no spring as far as Im aware in the Wheel Assemblies. They are all Motor and particle clutch.

Ahh thank you for clarifying that for us. That's what I figured. El Semi simply didn't code the drive board to 100% accuracy. I have a hunch one of these days Howard will be able to clean up the code a bit and rectify this issue ;)

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2013, 07:21:31 am »
There's not too much in regards to actual data with those games.  All the game outputs is a single byte that gives you power and direction... no spring force that I'm aware of.  I don't think this is a case of him hooking it up improperly but rather there wasn't any spring force to hook up.  As I've said, this probably isn't a software thing, but rather a hardware one.  It's quite possible that the way the driver board worked was it "locked" the motor in place after getting the appropriate position commands.  The software (which is all we have to work with unfortunately) wouldn't have anything to do with this. 

The reason Daytona does work is because, like I said earlier, he appears to have done a custom hack for that game, probably because it's so popular compared to the others. 

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2013, 08:57:22 am »
I have a hunch one of these days Howard will be able to clean up the code a bit and rectify this issue ;)

if he had the code...... :'(

One of the MAMEDevs have it, but I'm sure he's taken an oath not to give it to anyone.

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 03:00:15 pm »
I have a hunch one of these days Howard will be able to clean up the code a bit and rectify this issue ;)

if he had the code...... :'(

One of the MAMEDevs have it, but I'm sure he's taken an oath not to give it to anyone.

You would think this kind of childish behavior would be a thing of the past. And they say emulator users are pre-madonnas  ::)

How is keeping source code for something like this beneficial to anyone?

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Re: Model 2 Emu Force feedback accuracy
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 03:26:36 pm »
How is keeping source code for something like this beneficial to anyone?

It keeps El Semi from losing his job at Sega from what I've read in forums.   :lol

Not sure how much of it, if any has made its way into MAME.