Chad's gameroom project - Drywall hanging / subfloor complete + new pics

[lilshawn]

I'm going to make time to talk to the building inspector and get approval on that.

agreed. It's best to ask their opinion...that way you make them feel smart, you look dumb to them, but everybody gets what the want. Also, i think he'd rather field a few questions rather than get all PO'd because you did something without "asking"

Would you?  It's entirely open floor space.  The diagram in that pic shows it creating a flow around the whole space.

i dunno, i looked at the pics on the site, it shows just the unit and it works that way, but they do have a duct part you could attach on there...it wouldn't be a big deal to run some 4" or whatever size duct it is across to the far side.  and you could even hit it with some black to blend it in. the more the merrier i would think... you wouldn't get just an exchange in the one side... it would HAVE TO do most of it. (draw in one side of the basement and exhaust out the other.)

run it by the inspector, mention either way works. (sincew they seem picky about air and light and fire and whatnot.

[Gray_Area]

I wouldna even bothered with a permit. Are you inviting him over to play?

[ChadTower]

I wouldna even bothered with a permit. Are you inviting him over to play?

I was wondering if this question was ever going to come up.  Here is why I am permitting:

I asked a friend of mine who is an insurance agent.  He told me that without permits if I ever have a loss down there the insurance will refuse to cover it.  If the loss extends to any other part of the house they will refuse to cover that too.  If the contents of that room are damaged as well they will refuse to cover that.  Basically, if a fire starts in that part of the house and it was not permitted then my house could be a total loss with no coverage.  That's a very bad thing.  Even if we're only talking about the contents of the room, which will be many thousands of dollars in pins/vids, that would be a very bad thing.

I asked a friend of mine who is a realtor.  She told me that when she is representing a buyer, and they get serious about a house, the first thing she does is go to town hall and pull the permit history.  If there is any obvious extra work that does not have a permit she will wait until after the offer is accepted to demand remediation concessions of double the value of the work.  Technically the demand is for the cost of removing the work because it is not permitted + redoing the work with permits.  Practically the demand is low grade blackmail with a veiled threat to either pull the offer (people often freak out at the prospect of relisting) and/or inform the building inspector.  The building inspector then has the right to come in and view the work and possibly demand it be pulled back out.  Basically, nonpermitted work becomes a seirous liability when you want to sell the house if someone in the process is especially aggressive.

I'm also doing it for common sense reasons.  Clearly I'm a learn as you go amateur here.  I want someone double checking my work because bad work could be a safety issue for my family.  If code says there should be a firestop then I want the firestop.  Stopping fire sounds like a good idea to me.

I figure if I'm doing 90% of the work to make my house "bigger" then may as well go the extra 10%.  A 1750sqft house is worth more than an 1100sqft house and I can make that happen here without the cost of an addition.

 

[ChadTower]

UPDATE

The strange weather today gave me an opportunity to get to the Building Inspector's office hours.  I asked him about putting 3/4" plywood under the top plate as a firestop with fire caulk in any gaps.  He told me that would pass if done well but suggested a different route.  I can use a fire retardant insulation called mineral wool that comes in both semirigid sheets and batts.  If I stuff that up into all of the gaps it will do the job and pass inspection.  That is more money but he says far more effective than the plywood and far easier to do.  He also explained the precautions to take while putting it in there.

I asked what he would recommend for an air exchanger.  He told me to use an air exchanger that has a heat exchange built into the loop.  The ducting has a heat exchanger near the cent that is keeping the temp of the outgoing air and transferring some of that to the incoming air.  That goes a long way towards avoiding February New England winter air turning my basement into a 650sqft refrigerator.  He suggested I look up Fan Tech Air Exchangers as he has seen many people install these and love them. 

Now I have a simple solution for the firestop and a specific direction to research on the air exchanger.  Initial prices on the air exchangers are lower than I thought.  Now to research install methods and recommendations.

Oh, and I'm now known in the Building Inspector's office as "the guy who apologized" and am very popular.  Apparently that only happens like every 4 years.   

[lilshawn]

awesome. 

now you have to be all like: "hey, I gotta come back later you want me to grab you a coffee or something"

they'll be eating out of your hand soon enough 

[TopJimmyCooks]

Bring doughnuts and you'll be promoted to honorary General Contractor! 

Seriously, I didn't steer you wrong, did I?  I know of what I speak when it comes to the power brokers down at the county government center.  They take a lot of crap day to day and your extra effort is so refreshing to them. 

The rockwool is a good idea, just wear longsleeves, gloves, dust mask, etc.  it's prickly stuff. 

[ChadTower]

Yep, for sure.   

It's common sense, really, but we all know how few people have any of that.

Barring any new surprises I have decided to put an air exchanger in that can handle the whole basement.  The added square footage is too good to pass up.  It gives me so many future options.  I still need to figure out the capacity requirements for the exchanger but this one is looking mighty good right now.

[ChadTower]

More research.  These come with out changing the temp of the incoming air, with active heat recovery from the outgoing air, and with active energy recovery (moisture transfer).  Heat recovery is recommended for cold winter areas and energy recovery for mild winter areas.

I live in MA so I definitely want heat recovery.  If I mostly intend to do just the basement here, instead of putting in a whole house system, I'm looking at something like this one.  Same company as above but with heat recovery.  If I've done my math correctly the basement rounds off to 5000cuft which would require around 90cfm for a full air swap every hour.  Code says 0.37 (no idea why) air swaps per hour so we're looking at 33-35cfm required for the basement.

The unit linked here rates to almost twice the requirement and sells in the $600-700 range.

I also have the option, I think, of tying much of my house into an exchanger.  I have forced hot air heat so the ductwork is already there.  I can probably tie into that somehow.  More research coming on potential there.

[WaRpEd]

Hey Chad one piece of advice on air exchanger is to have a pro either install or tell you where it's safe to mount it. Tying into the wrong spot can have alot of bad consquences. Leaking ducts or a room that doesn't get enough heat or cold. I do alot of my home repairs woodworking, plumbing and electrical but I leave the A/C heating stuff to the pros. Just my two cents.

[ChadTower]

I agree with that.  I think I'm going to install this independent of the heating system.  I don't know a thing about backdrafting and such and that's really out of the scope of what I'm trying to do here.  I am going to install it right near the furnace and the ducting trunk so that in the future it can be changed without a lot of hassle.  I'm not going to mess with the heat system, though. 

[ChadTower]

UPDATE:

After some unrelated delays I have the final plan worked out.  The building inspector verbally approved my plan.  I have to write up a description to go along with the before and after floorplans.  The details he asked for in the desc that aren't obvious from the floorplans are flooring type, firestop type, air exchanger model, and ceiling height (both the lowest beam and the average joist).

Min ceiling heights, with floor installed, are 6'4" for the lowest beam and 6'8" for the average joist.  I should come in just above those numbers but not by a lot.

I will have three building inspections and two electrical inspections.  Building inspections will be after raw framing, after the first electrical inspection, and then after the walls are closed.  Electrical inspections will be after the wiring is in place but everything is still open and then after the walls are closed.  Yeah, that's a lot of inspections for such a small job, but that's how it has to be done.

When all of THAT is done my gameroom will be habitable living space and will count towards the square footage of my house.  That will be a good bump of about 30% on total square footage.

[mcseforsale]

Unfortunately, that will raise your taxes as well.  Especially in Taxachusetts.  I had a similar thing happen to me in Ct.  I put a floor and a wall with a workbench hanging off it and they dinged me for an extra 300 square feet.

AJ

UPDATE:

After some unrelated delays I have the final plan worked out.  The building inspector verbally approved my plan.  I have to write up a description to go along with the before and after floorplans.  The details he asked for in the desc that aren't obvious from the floorplans are flooring type, firestop type, air exchanger model, and ceiling height (both the lowest beam and the average joist).

Min ceiling heights, with floor installed, are 6'4" for the lowest beam and 6'8" for the average joist.  I should come in just above those numbers but not by a lot.

I will have three building inspections and two electrical inspections.  Building inspections will be after raw framing, after the first electrical inspection, and then after the walls are closed.  Electrical inspections will be after the wiring is in place but everything is still open and then after the walls are closed.  Yeah, that's a lot of inspections for such a small job, but that's how it has to be done.

When all of THAT is done my gameroom will be habitable living space and will count towards the square footage of my house.  That will be a good bump of about 30% on total square footage.

[ChadTower]

Unfortunately, that will raise your taxes as well.  Especially in Taxachusetts.  I had a similar thing happen to me in Ct.  I put a floor and a wall with a workbench hanging off it and they dinged me for an extra 300 square feet.

Yep.  MA actually isn't as bad as its reputation when it comes to taxes.  We have lower property and income taxes than all neighboring states that aren't NH (NH has a totally different tax structure).

Anyone have any experience when it comes time to sell a house with a truly tricked out gameroom?  How does that effect the buyer pool?

[mcseforsale]

He will love it, she will
a.) love that she will know where he is....ALL THE TIME.
b.) hate it
c.) want to turn it into a doily room.

AJ

Unfortunately, that will raise your taxes as well.  Especially in Taxachusetts.  I had a similar thing happen to me in Ct.  I put a floor and a wall with a workbench hanging off it and they dinged me for an extra 300 square feet.

Yep.  MA actually isn't as bad as its reputation when it comes to taxes.  We have lower property and income taxes than all neighboring states that aren't NH (NH has a totally different tax structure).

Anyone have any experience when it comes time to sell a house with a truly tricked out gameroom?  How does that effect the buyer pool?

[ChadTower]

I wish there were a way to get the metal support poles brass plated.  That would add a little bit to the idea of an entertainment room.   

[ChadTower]

Minor update:

Building permit application is in.  The building inspector gave it a quick eyeball and said it would be a couple of days before he types it up and I can grab it.  Shouldn't be long now before things are moving forward again.

[WaRpEd]

Chad why not wrap those poles in carpet for that classy arcade look ?

[mcseforsale]

Doesn't rustoleum have chrome and brass colored paint?

AJ

[ChadTower]

Right now the poles are a flat lumpy grey.  Why lumpy?  I have no idea.  I'm toying with the idea of stripping them to see why it's lumpy but meh.  One son wants to paint them flat black and put some invisible UV reactive paint shapes on them.   The other wants to wrap some sort of light string around them.  I haven't made a decision yet.

[mcseforsale]

It's probably welding slag.  If your house is older, those were probably stick welded on-site.  Back then, basements were not seen as living space, so noone cared. 

AJ

Right now the poles are a flat lumpy grey.  Why lumpy?  I have no idea.  I'm toying with the idea of stripping them to see why it's lumpy but meh.  One son wants to paint them flat black and put some invisible UV reactive paint shapes on them.   The other wants to wrap some sort of light string around them.  I haven't made a decision yet.

[ChadTower]

Would slag be up and down the entire nearly 7' of pole?  Or just at the top and bottom?

[mcseforsale]

Probably all over it.  Tap one of the bumps with a tack hammer, or small hammer and see if it gives.  It could also be plaster, if your house is a slat/plaster house.

AJ

Would slag be up and down the entire nearly 7' of pole?  Or just at the top and bottom?

[ChadTower]

Probably all over it.  Tap one of the bumps with a tack hammer, or small hammer and see if it gives.  It could also be plaster, if your house is a slat/plaster house.

Good idea, I'll poke it with a flathead screwdriver and see what scrapes off.  My house is all drywall.  No plaster at all, just some old textured paint, which I suppose is another possibility.

[ChadTower]

UPDATE:

Picked up the building permit this morning.  I estimated my project cost at $3250 (it went up with the air exchanger) and the permit cost was $50. 

The permit says I need building inspections at rough, insulation, and finish.  All I have to do before rough is add the firestop insulation.  Then I can request the rough building inspection and the rough wiring inspection.

Five inspections (two electrical as well) for a minor remodel of the basement.  Sheesh.

[lilshawn]

just keep jumping through the hoops chadtower, you are well on your way. 

getting approval from the city is the hardest step sometimes.

[Zero_Hour]

Just found this thread. Very nice stuff going on. Cant wait to see the finished product. My wife and I recently relocated, and our new (built in 1960) house has a 'finished' basement that really isn't, so I know I'll be coming back here for inspiration when it comes time to remedy it.

I can't speak to what a tricked out game room will do for value when selling the house, but having just gone through the buying process recently, I can tell you that a finished basement is looked upon fondly, especially if there are kids in the equation.

[ChadTower]

Just found this thread. Very nice stuff going on. Cant wait to see the finished product. My wife and I recently relocated, and our new (built in 1960) house has a 'finished' basement that really isn't, so I know I'll be coming back here for inspiration when it comes time to remedy it.

Awesome!  This is exactly why I have been writing this thread.   

[lilshawn]

Awesome!  This is exactly why I have been writing this thread.   

I'm currently planing my first home purchase this year. You best believe i'll be coming back and referring to your thread.  :cheers It always helps to have multiple points of view and several sets of eyes on things.

[mcseforsale]

Where are you at lilshawn?  Perhaps some in here could give you tips on what to avoid, etc.  Personally, I've owned 6 homes over the years of all vintages.  I must say, the 1960s New England stuff is the worse when it comes to maintenance and upgrades. 

AJ

Awesome!  This is exactly why I have been writing this thread.   

I'm currently planing my first home purchase this year. You best believe i'll be coming back and referring to your thread.  :cheers It always helps to have multiple points of view and several sets of eyes on things.

[lilshawn]

<threadderailment>
I live in Edmonton Alberta Canada home of the -40c spring weather.

We are basically looking for a bungalow style house in the 300k range, as my oldest daughter is in a wheelchair. Because of this, we have very specific needs. (width requirements for doors and hallways etc.) we currently have 4 or 5 places we have our eye on with 1 that I think would be almost perfect. it was built in 1959 but it has had new siding put on in the last year, so it has a modern look to it anyways. I think it could be easily modified to work for us. it's been on the market for about 90 days already, so i'm not sure how flexible on price they might be. guess it depends.

We are in the early stages yet. have a few more meetings to hash out our final $ amount spending limit, but between me and the wife i think we are not too bad considering. the credit looks okay, and our income is good. paying a mortgage right now would be about as much as we are paying in rent.
</threadderailment>

[Gray_Area]

Finally remembered this: that mention about the realtor who investigates properties for sale that don't have permist and then....threatens the owners with reporting them?  Isn't that ---smurfing--- extortion?

[ChadTower]

Finally remembered this: that mention about the realtor who investigates properties for sale that don't have permist and then....threatens the owners with reporting them?  Isn't that ---smurfing--- extortion?

I didn't say I agree with it. 

[Gray_Area]

Finally remembered this: that mention about the realtor who investigates properties for sale that don't have permist and then....threatens the owners with reporting them?  Isn't that ---smurfing--- extortion?

I didn't say I agree with it. 

I was asking to know. If it is illegal in your state, I'm surprised she hasn't been shut down, or killed.

[ChadTower]

I was asking to know. If it is illegal in your state, I'm surprised she hasn't been shut down, or killed.

It does sound sketchy, but of course, there are a lot of sketchy people in real estate.  I wouldn't doubt the actual actions are more like "point out the work without permits, propose remediation concessions in price, hint that the building inspector would like to know, threaten to walk if concessions are not made".

[Gray_Area]

I was asking to know. If it is illegal in your state, I'm surprised she hasn't been shut down, or killed.

It does sound sketchy, but of course, there are a lot of sketchy people in real estate.  I wouldn't doubt the actual actions are more like "point out the work without permits, propose remediation concessions in price, hint that the building inspector would like to know, threaten to walk if concessions are not made".

Possibly. I'd still tell her ta eat a bag o ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[ChadTower]

UPDATE:

The mineral wool (aka rock wool) insulation is up.  I used Roxul Comfortbatt insulation.  Got it at Lowe's.  The type I used is R-15 and fire resistant to a couple thousand degrees.  It is installed up in the area inside the wall in between the joists and also along the entire sill plate at the top of the foundation.  The idea is that if a fire starts inside the wall, it is trapped between the drywall and the concrete foundation, so the only place to go is up.  Up is my living room and kitchen and family.  The insulation is made of rocks (no idea how) and will dramatically slow down the upward spread of fire in that area.  A firestop is required by building code.  This is one method doing it.

I'll get some pics when I can.  The area doesn't look all that much different than the last pics because most of the insulation is behind the framing and joists.  Took a while to jam it up in there with as little damage to the insulation structure as possible.  This stuff is much nicer to work with than fiberglass.  No mask or suit necessary.  Just glasses.  It has no paper backing, but does have some structural rigidity, and cuts super easily with a serrated bread knife.  I used the 15" stuff so it was a lot of cutting to size of the gap and then just sticking it between the joists.  It holds itself up.

On tuesday I called in for the rough building inspection.  When the building inspector called back he said he could do the inspection thursday (today) and he told me I should be getting the rough electrical first.  I thought he meant "get the rough electrical and call back" but he must have meant "get the rough electrical ASAP and I'll be there thursday".  He showed up today to inspect.  My wife and kids were there (April school vacation) but I was at work.  The wife says he didn't seem to mind much (he knows me and my n00bness by now) and since it IS ready for him he did the inspection anyway.  It passed just fine with one area that needs a little more firestop.  Easy to do.  The wife says he wasn't angry about the mixup and spent more time eyeing the pins than he did the framing.   

[Gray_Area]

The wife says he wasn't angry about the mixup and spent more time eyeing the pins than he did the framing.   

He knows where to come with a flatbed when you're on vacation....heh.....or maybe he has some, too......

[ChadTower]

Everybody spends more time eyeing the arcade games than they do whatever they came to do.   I'm sure this happens to everybody with more than one or two games.  A few weeks ago I upgraded my dishwasher and sold the older one on CL.  An older couple showed up and the guy had zero interest in the dishwasher as soon as he saw the Pole Position.  He just handed me the money for the dishwasher and kept asking "so do you sell arcade games too?"

That's especially funny because my PP is ugly as hell.  Plays well but the cabinet is going to need a lot of love.

[lilshawn]

The wife says he wasn't angry about the mixup and spent more time eyeing the pins than he did the framing.   

the cookies and coffee youv'e been bringing are helping

[ChadTower]

UPDATE:

Just passed the rough electrical inspection.  He did tell me that a couple of things are borderline.  The primary thing is that my wires should be 6" long once entering each box.  Mine aren't.  I didn't know there's a min length so I made them all "as long as they need to be" so you could still pull the receptacle out and work on it.  But it's not 6".  The other is that I don't have tamper resistant outlets and that's code for homes now.

I can switch out the outlets, no big deal.  The wire issue would be a bigger deal, and he said he'd make an issue if I weren't the homeowner, but since I am he suggested a compromise.  In his opinion it's safe if I replace the breakers with AFCI breakers (arc fault circuit interrupters).  He said the short wires should not ever cause an issue, but just on the miniscule chance it does, the arc fault breakers will catch that and shut the circuit down.  He also suggested GFCI outlets on the first in each circuit just to be double sure.  I can make those changes.  It's a lot better than having to rerun all of the romex and in his judgement it is passing the safety requirements of the code. 


Remediate steps:  Replace the outlets with tamper resistant outlets.  First outlet in each circuit is to be GFCI/tamper resistant.  Replace breakers with AFCI. 

Next steps after that:  Fiberglass insulation between the joists and the insulation phase building inspection.  And a few pictures so this thread is less boring.