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Author Topic: Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???  (Read 2464 times)

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jhsmith321

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Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« on: September 23, 2003, 11:54:41 pm »
Maybe it is a dumb question, but I had to ask, why do the MAME developers remove games from version to version??? Legal issues?? do they need to get fixed??, by the way, do they usually add those removed games again in future versions??? One game that comes to mind, was die hard trilogy, I thinkg that game was removed long ago, and has not been added yet...... I just does not make sense to add some great games, to remove them on a newer version of MAME, I know they have their reasons, but I pray that someday they will add all those removed games, so I will not have to keep different version of MAME to play a removed game........THANKS!!!!! ;D
« Last Edit: September 23, 2003, 11:58:16 pm by jhsmith321 »

vitaflo

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2003, 01:01:02 am »
Depends really.  This latest release had a few games removed since they were deemed "too new".  

Some day all of these removed games will be in MAME.  Since the goal is to accurately emulate all arcade hardware.

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2003, 02:48:22 am »
Some games were added mostly to bring that game's bugs to attention and to try to find someone who wanted to tackle fixing those problems.  When noone surfaces and people keep complaining the game doesn't work, mameDev removes them.  (This has been repeated a bunch of times.)  IIRC, die hard was one of those games.


Other games are removed when it's found that it wasn't any different from another version already in mame, or that it wasn't ever "found in the wild" (except for official prototypes).  Other's aren't really removed, but just renamed; rom managers can find and handle that.


The "too new" games recently removed (mentioned in prior post) will be added in January releases.  "Too new" is any game that's not over 2 years old at the first of the current year, or the game manufacturer contacted mameDev and and told them "Our game is too new to be included in mame" (or somewhat to that effect).

FWIW, some people are now mis-stating that the games now have to be 3 years old, but that would only be true if games were released only on the first of each year (or there was no such thing as 2.25 years old).  
Example 1: lets say a game was released Dec 31 2001, today is Sep 24 2003; 2003 - 2001 = 2 years, but 12/31/2001 - 9/24/2003 < 2 years (~1.75), too soon even by the 2 years or older stance.  
Example 2: current year is 2003, so 2003 - 2 = 2001; games must be released before 2001 to be added to a mame released in 2003.  It's too hard for MameDev to check what (sometimes debatable) month a game came out, so the position is "assume all games are released after the first of a year, and only check if game age > 2 years on the first of each year."  Sure, some game will need to wait until they're 3 years old, but the average would be 2.5 years (assuming games are released constantly throughout the year), which is less than 3 years old.
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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2003, 03:39:22 am »
Rebel your logic is slightly flawed.  Most arcade games are released very early spring so kids can play them during the summer. It's the smae thing as console games being released mostly in the fall so kids can get them for xmas. As a matter of fact the usual lifecycle of a game is it gets released around feb/march in the arcades and is ported to the consoles that winter. Therefore due to this new policy nearly all games will have a three year wait.  :(

I understand why the mame devs did it though, and frankly I'm a little disappointed at all the complaining the decision has caused.  It's only a handful of games, most of which aren't very good imo.  And Jan is only a very few months away.  If you can't wait that long then simply roll your own version or use an older mame build.  

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2003, 08:53:32 am »
Using the 2 year calculation, shouldn't we get a some newer versions of Golden Tee sometime? I like playing Golden Tee II but GT 98/99 would be much better!

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2003, 09:19:42 am »
Using the 2 year calculation, shouldn't we get a some newer versions of Golden Tee sometime? I like playing Golden Tee II but GT 98/99 would be much better!

It's not an exact rule.  It's also been pushed back to three years.

As for Golden Tee, as has been posted before, they won't add it in because the makers of Golden Tee have asked that it not be put in.

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2003, 03:19:07 am »
Rebel your logic is slightly flawed.  Most arcade games are released very early spring so kids can play them during the summer. It's the smae thing as console games being released mostly in the fall so kids can get them for xmas. As a matter of fact the usual lifecycle of a game is it gets released around feb/march in the arcades and is ported to the consoles that winter. Therefore due to this new policy nearly all games will have a three year wait.  :(

Okay, so the "all year round" assumption I stated (as an assumption) wasn't correct, but IMO 2.75 years (or even 2 11/12 years) is still less than three years.  Almost three years, but not quite.  ;)
Assumptions this time: a Jan 15 mame release, spring starts march twenty something, and Feb 15 to April 15 arcade releases to meet the "early spring" release, plus the occational one month delayed release*.   Feb 15 yields a 2 11/12 years age, April 15 yields 2.75.

*Not sure if arcade releases have delayed release problems, but even if they're not as bad as PC software releases (#cough#Daikatana#cough#), or the ActLab TV lightgun, arcade summer and fall releases could still be almost normal. [shrug]


Also, not all games are released in the beginning of the year, especially updates and revisions.  IIRC one of the roms included in the Jan 1, 2002 mame release (0.57) was released to the arcades in Nov 2000, so was less than 1 year 2 months old at the time it was included.  There was a running argument about it for about seven months before it was finally pulled, only to be re-added after about three months without it.  [shrug]  The three month wait is happening again, but hopefully it won't after this.


Quote
I understand why the mame devs did it though, and frankly I'm a little disappointed at all the complaining the decision has caused.  It's only a handful of games, most of which aren't very good imo.  And Jan is only a very few months away.  If you can't wait that long then simply roll your own version or use an older mame build.  

Agree.
Robin
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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2003, 04:50:35 pm »
btw, its not 100% by date..

Date is a big deal...  And they have never officially given a time frame I don't believe.

But there are statements that have been said by the mame devs..

1) The game can't still be making money or make it so new games coming out are trivial to add.  IE, Golden Tee...  I have heard there is a driver, but they wont add it in any form... because swapping out the harddrive image would get the latest versions running... The they are still selling those cabinets.

2) The game cant be new enough that they fear being sued.  They have not been sued up to this point... And they don't want to push the envelope.

btw, 2 years ago... it was a 5 year limit that was pretty firm.  But then they realized that games 5 years old where not making anybody any money.... And started moving a little closer.  NeoGeo games and CPS2 helped this out in that people could add them by themselfs without problems... and nobody seemed to mind.

But remember... the mamedev are arcade fans.  They would (in my opinion) stop all development of emulating any new games if it ment that the arcade industry would strive.  But I believe (and so do others) taht emulation is helping the dead industry.  

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2003, 05:14:13 pm »
Btw I just got the word down the grapevine.  SNK is returning to the us.  They will be releasing kof 2k1 and mslug 4 on the consoles shortly. Also the third-party that made rotd will be making a playstation 2 port.  So that answers your questions guys.  They removed them primarily to help out the dying snk.  They probably removed the non snk ones so that poindexters wouldn't point out that the non removed games are newer than the one's removed.  

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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2003, 11:02:05 pm »

1) The game can't still be making money or make it so new games coming out are trivial to add.  IE, Golden Tee...  I have heard there is a driver, but they wont add it in any form... because swapping out the harddrive image would get the latest versions running... The they are still selling those cabinets.


That's somewhat on point. Actually its the Golden Tee 3d driver that lets you drop in 97, 98, 99, and 2K by just swapping the roms out  ;) (they all use the same protection scheme and by emulating the original one, it would allow bootleggers to do the other ones.) Unclear if Its Games will add new courses to that platform, so better safe than sorry to not put the driver out into the public domain.

GT Classic supposedly runs on the same platform too, that's why the driver needs to stay outta the mainstream as Its Games is still selling it.

From what I can gather, the newer ones, ie: Fore!, 2002, etc. are on a different hardware platform from the original GT3d games. I'm not too sure on that one. I'd imagine it would take some serious horsepower to emulate those anyways...

My 2 cents.
Smack
« Last Edit: September 26, 2003, 11:03:11 pm by Smack »
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Re:Why do games get removed from each version of MAME???
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2003, 11:45:55 pm »
Yes, gtg3d, 97-2k use the same hardware.  2k1 and newer don't use that hardware.