Namco Gun Recoil

[Savannan]

The recoil on the namco guns are the best in the business.  (IMHO)
Has anyone put in Ultimarcs light gun kit in a Namco gun and successfully made the recoil portion work?

[Paul Olson]

I am actually trying to find a set of Namco guns to try this out on. I have a Time Crisis 3, but I can't hack up those guns. I keep looking, but so far nothing reasonably priced for the project.

[Kevin Mullins]

Been a while since I looked into the Namco recoil guns, but it seems the biggest issue was providing 24vdc to the coil, and of course that supply voltage needed to be triggered via the software using something like mamehooker or ledwiz and relays.

Or something to that affect..... I forget now.

[BadMouth]

Andy has a firmware for AIM-TRAK that outputs a pulse when the gun is fired while pointed at the screen.
MameHooker can also signal a pulse based on outputs in MAME, but it wouldn't work with PC games or other emulators.
It's also been done other ways that are over my head.

I tinkered with a Happ recoil gun for a bit, but the amount of power overwhelmed the transistor recommended in this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=110552.0
I know it would just be a matter of having the right parts, but I'm no electrical engineer.

They are getting 24V.  I don't remember how much current, but I think the initial kick was a couple amps.
(I also have a set of positional guns that peak as much as 10 amps that I'd like to get working.)

I've been meaning to get back to it and try a bank of transistors, or a solid state relay (which nobody seems to like for some reason).
Really was hoping to have everything self contained in the gun.

Not sure when I'll get back to it.  Already have too many irons in the fire...  

[lodoss118]

are these any good

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIME-CRISIS-TWIN-RECOIL-SF-X-OPTO-2-GUN-KIT-/260844137894?pt=UK_Video_Games_Coin_Operated_MJ&hash=item3cbb85ada6

thining of getting the usb2gun

[arcadeswede]

Hi!

I'm currently working on getting my namco guns to work with the Aim-Trak and also getting the recoil function to work with it as well.
And I think it will work! I'm very positive.

I bought two very cheap namco guns from Ebay a few weeks ago.
They were in bad shape but I was going to take them apart so I didn't really care that much.
The guns did work though.

I took them apart and removed all the electronics.
The only thing I kept was the solenoid and the trigger-switch.

Then I realized that it's impossible to get the gun-functions you get from the time crisis games (machine gun/shotgun kickback thing).
So I just went with this solution:

Recoil funtion:
When the trigger is pulled I send 12V through the trigger-switch and to a relay.
The relay gets activated and triggers 3 empty ports on the relay.
I then connect 24V to one of these ports so when the relay gets activated it sends 24V to the solenoid and I get a kickback function everytime I hit the trigger.
Then, to get the left mouse click working on the Aim-trak when I shoot, I just connect the left mouse click cables over the relay.

So, when I shoot, the solenoid gets triggered and a left mouse click at the same time.

The hard part is to place the camera inside the gun.
I had to remove some of the plastic to get it to fit (See picture)

This is currently a work in progress and I don't know how this will end but I have a feeling that it will.
I'll come back with more info when I'm finished.

If you guys have any questions, just ask!

[benll64]

Wow, how much did you get the Namco gun set for? I can't seem to find them.

[MonMotha]

Just a thought, but given the rapid on/off and relative frequency of operation of the recoil in this application, it might be wise to consider a solid state relay (SSR) instead of a mechanical relay.  I'd be worried about the contacts wearing out on the relay, especially given the inductive nature of the load.  Make sure you get one designed for DC (many are made for AC and will latch on with a DC current).  A freewheeling diode on the recoil solenoid would be recommended in either case.

[Franco B]

Wow, how much did you get the Namco gun set for? I can't seem to find them.

New, you are looking at about [$530]/[£210] each.

I had been searching for some used ones for a while without any luck. I did just manage to get a Point Blank 2 kit (two guns, PB2 PCB and 24v PSU) for £180 that had been stripped off a cab.

Your best bet may be to buy a second hand Point Blank/Time Crisis cab and take the guns off that as you can often pick a complete cab up for around £200.

I'm not hacking/maming mine though, real hardware ftw 

[Martijn]

I found a local virtua cop 2 cabinet with broken screen for about 100 usd, are those guns with recoil?



this one

[Franco B]

Yes, I have been told they have 24v solenoids in them. They don't have slide recoil like the Namco ones though IIRC.

[Martijn]

Darn he sold it already, and he lived far from my home anyway..

[boardjunkie]

Just a thought, but given the rapid on/off and relative frequency of operation of the recoil in this application, it might be wise to consider a solid state relay (SSR) instead of a mechanical relay.  I'd be worried about the contacts wearing out on the relay, especially given the inductive nature of the load.  Make sure you get one designed for DC (many are made for AC and will latch on with a DC current).  A freewheeling diode on the recoil solenoid would be recommended in either case.

The relay won't be damaged by the inductive kickback of the coil, but most transistor switched circuits will. I'd see the datasheet of the SS relay (if this is the way he wants to go) and see if its not already protected.

[arcadeswede]

Wow, how much did you get the Namco gun set for? I can't seem to find them.

I got them from a guy on Ebay I emailed and I paid $158, shipped to Sweden.
Pretty good price and they did work, both of them.
Well, the pink gun had a blown fuse to the solenoid, but I fixed that.
Now they're in good shape and works perfect!

Just a thought, but given the rapid on/off and relative frequency of operation of the recoil in this application, it might be wise to consider a solid state relay (SSR) instead of a mechanical relay.  I'd be worried about the contacts wearing out on the relay, especially given the inductive nature of the load.  Make sure you get one designed for DC (many are made for AC and will latch on with a DC current).  A freewheeling diode on the recoil solenoid would be recommended in either case.

Yeah, that's a good idea to use a static relay. I will see if I can find one. And the relays I'm using are only DC relays.
The solenoids comes with a diod connected, it's behind the black tape on the picture, right at the white connector. It's kinda hard to see.

I'm not hacking/maming mine though, real hardware ftw  

Indeed!!! xD

I found a local virtua cop 2 cabinet with broken screen for about 100 usd, are those guns with recoil?

They look like these guns: http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/9990836.htm
I don't think they have recoil-function? See if you can find any videos on youtube with those guns.

[Franco B]

I thought I would continue this thread rather than making a new one.

I got my Namco guns and Point Blank 2 PCB and the guns work great 

I also picked up a Zero Point 2 PCB which is a similar game to PB and I'm going to add some AMP UP connectors so that I can use the guns with Zero Point 2 too.

Here are a few photos of the Namco Guns and System 11 PCB











There are 6 wires going into the Namco guns as well as a green earth wire and I believe this pinout to be correct after taking the guns apart:


Black : GND
Red: 5v for sensor (metered)
White: Gun Opto
Blue: Trigger
Yellow: 24v for solenoid from separate PSU
Orange: 24v 'GND'

You can see the diode across the solenoid that arcadeswede mentioned

The yellow 24v is connected directly to the solenoid of the gun. I believe it is the orange 'GND' wire that governs when the solenoid is activated, this wire terminates at the 8 pin header you can see in the first picture of the System 11 PCB. You only get recoil in game when you are firing shots, you don't get any recoil when not coined up or when you have run out of bullets in a mini game etc.

I have found the gun header pinout for the Zero Point 2 PCB to be as follows:

   1| Gun OPTO - White Wire
   2| +5 Volts - Red Wire
   3| Trigger  - Green Wire
   4| Ground   - Black Wire

Obviously they will be easy to wire up to the Namco guns. What is troubling me is how to get the solenoids hooked up.

I found a video of the 1st Zero Point PCB and it looks like the guns do have recoil. I would imagine the Zero Point 2 to have feed back too as the PCBs are near identical from what I can see.



[This] is the full Zero Point 2 pinout. I can't see anything to do with the solenoids on that.

I'm not sure how the solenoids work in regards to this game but I'm thinking of wiring some relays up so that the solenoid fires whenever the trigger is pulled. I have measure the voltage at the trigger and as expected there is 5v. I was wondering if its possible to run a/some relays of this to power the solenoids every time the trigger is pulled.

I would need a SPST relay per gun or a DPST relay for the pair (or use SPDT/DPDT and just use one pole) that can be triggered from 5v, that can relay 24v and can handle 5A+

I've had a look but I can't seem to find anything suitable. Has anyone got a suggestion for relays or for another possible solution?

[arcadeswede]

I told earlier that my pink namco gun didn't work so I found a "melt fuse", hidden under the tape on the solenoid.
If the solenoid gets too hot, the fuse will disconnect the circuit to save the solenoid from burning up if something goes wrong.

Here's a picture of the "melt fuse":


The specs on the fuse is:
121
UMI
2A 250V
102 °C F4

I replaced mine and the solenoid now works like a charm.
Maybe this will help someone with a non-working namco gun.

[Franco B]

After a little digging I found [these.]

Specs are:

    SSR, 60VDC
    Control Voltage Range:3V DC to 32V DC
    Operating Voltage Range:5V DC to 60V DC
    Load Current:5A
    Isolation Voltage:4kV
    Control Voltage Type:DC
    Relay Terminals:Screw
    Blocking Voltage:60V
    Control Current Voltage:60V
    Control Voltage DC Max:32V
    Control Voltage DC Min:1V
    Control Voltage Pickup:3V
    Current Rating:5A
    Input Impedance:1000ohm
    Leakage Current:1µA
    Load Current Min:20mA
    Load Current RMS Max:5A
    Operating Temperature Max:100°C
    Operating Temperature Min:-40°C
    Operating Voltage:60
    Output Type:Bipolar Transistor
    Signal Drop-out Voltage:1V
    Surge Current:10A
    Terminal Type:Screw
    Voltage Drop @ Rated Current:1.5V


I guess that should handle it. I would need one for each gun though and they are £18.21 each.

[arcadeswede]

After a little digging I found [these.]

Will these SSR work with my set-up?
I asume they will work by looking at the specs but I just want to be sure.

My relay/relays is driven by 12V DC, and through that relay I send 24V DC to the solenoid.

It would be nice to have SSR's instead of mechanical relays, as you said earlier.

[Franco B]

If they work with mine then they will work with yours. 

It would be nice to hopefully get some 'feedback' () from the pro electronics guys.

[arcadeswede]

I just remebered that I need two ports on a SSR.

One for my 24V DC (solenoid) and one for my trigger signal (Aim-Trak - Left mouse click).
Does SSR's only have one port or is there SSR's with more ports avaible?

[Franco B]

It looks like they may be SPNO (SPST) only.

If you look [here] at general power relays you can see there are a wide range of contact configurations where as if you look at panel mount SSD relays [here] there is no filter list for contact configurations.

[Bimmy]

Franco,
Any chance I can get a nice picture of the front of the Namco gun connector with the pins labeled?