Digital Pinball ...

[ragnar]

I was curious as to where I should talk about pinball arcade here.  Seems that the pinball forum is dedicated to actual pinball machines.

Anyway.  With LCD prices going down, a move to a new home possible this summer and a hatred for idle hands I have some plans.  A 4 player cab and a Digital Pinball build.  I can tackle the 4 player cab but I was curious as to:

1) What software is needed.
2) What kind of hardware beyond buttons and an iPac is needed (not worried about the PC).

THANK!

[Necro]

You mean a digital pinball table?  Check the HyperSpin forums - as far as I've seen, the HyperPin section is very active and can give you some help. 

Regarding #1: Pinball emulators and ... virtualizers?  (whatever not an emulator is called that runs something).
Regarding #2: 3 LCD screens - one for the playfield, one for the backglass, and one for the scorescreen.

Go check out the forums noted above - tons of info.  It actually seems easier to put one of those together (if you're not squeamish about decasing an LCD tv) then a MAME cab.  It's basically 4-6 buttons, the plunger, and coins. 

[RetroBorg]

I was curious as to where I should talk about pinball arcade here.  Seems that the pinball forum is dedicated to actual pinball machines.

Anyway.  With LCD prices going down, a move to a new home possible this summer and a hatred for idle hands I have some plans.  A 4 player cab and a Digital Pinball build.  I can tackle the 4 player cab but I was curious as to:

1) What software is needed.
2) What kind of hardware beyond buttons and an iPac is needed (not worried about the PC).

THANK!

There's lots of virtual pinball cabinet builds on theses other forums.

http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=38

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showforum=29

[BadMouth]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=98252.0 

I don't think there's any software out there besides visual pinball and future pinball.
If you want a 3rd monitor for the DMD, you'll need 2 graphics cards.
Other hardware depends on how far you want to take it.
chris77 (in the thread above) has taken it about as far as is possible. 

[Dazz]

Dude... Digital pinball machines suck.  Don't build one.  Go get a real machine and you'll enjoy that much more.








All you need to know can be found on the HyperPin Forums and Visual Pin Cabinet Forum.  Between these two sites you should be able to get any and all the information you need.

[ragnar]

Thanks for the replies.  I've been on hiatus.  Looking into the suggestions mentioned.  Much appreciated!

[jtslade]

I'm planning to make a digital pinball cab, but definitely not until I have a real pinball machine 1st.

One thing make sure to research the dual video cards, I have read that Nvidia is best when trying to get the best performance and quality out of Visual Pinball (HD Render for example)...

Give it plenty of CPU power.

I think you can get a device from Andy at Ultimarc so that you can have your tilt action when bumping the cab, a device with a accelerometer, I can't remember the name.

Also everyone seems to think that Sharp 42" LCD's are the must have for the play field.

Good luck and post lots of pictures and descriptions of what and where you got everything!

 

[Dazz]

I'm planning to make a digital pinball cab, but definitely not until I have a real pinball machine 1st.

One thing make sure to research the dual video cards, I have read that Nvidia is best when trying to get the best performance and quality out of Visual Pinball (HD Render for example)...

Give it plenty of CPU power.

I think you can get a device from Andy at Ultimarc so that you can have your tilt action when bumping the cab, a device with a accelerometer, I can't remember the name.

Also everyone seems to think that Sharp 42" LCD's are the must have for the play field.

Good luck and post lots of pictures and descriptions of what and where you got everything!

 

nVidia with an AMD CPU seems to be the best combination when it comes to VP performance.  As far as tilt action, you're talking about the UHID+G from Ultimarc.  After testing a UHIG+G in my cabinet; I've found that normal tiltbobs from real machines seem to work the best. 

[matsadona]

You should definitely go for this hardware if you are serious
http://nanotechent.com/mot-ionkit.php

[HanoiBoi]

You should definitely go for this hardware if you are serious
http://nanotechent.com/mot-ionkit.php

I thought that most who have tried this ended up scrapping it.  Do you know something that they don't or are you not even speaking from experience?

[matsadona]

I have one myself, since I belived it would be a nice touch to my build, with both a plunger and tilt sensors all in one.
To be honest, I haven't used it that much yet, so if others says it is crap, it might be so.

I also have a Uhid-G board, but that I never got to work properly. But maybe that's just me. I know other people are happy with it.
But since I failed I ordered the Nanotech stuff instead. Mostly because of the plunger. But again, my build is far from finished so I really haven't got that much experience yet.

[drventure]

@Dazz. WIth a normal tilt bob, though, you don't get any indication of the direction of tilt, which has an effect on the ball in FP and VP (like tilt forward, left right).

Or do you not bother with differentiation?

Just wondering mainly. I haven't really dug into getting on that working on my cab yet.

[Spacejack]

When using a normal tilt bob for nudging, do you set it tighter than it would be for tilting? I mean if you have to hit it hard enough that it would void your play in a real machine, that doesn't seem too awesome.

I could totally see some kind of double-tethered weight being usable for analog nudge control though.

[Erik]

@Dazz. WIth a normal tilt bob, though, you don't get any indication of the direction of tilt, which has an effect on the ball in FP and VP (like tilt forward, left right).

Or do you not bother with differentiation?

Just wondering mainly. I haven't really dug into getting on that working on my cab yet.

The cabs with tilt bobs use 2 or more with electrical tape around the ring part to only expose one area for directional nudges.  Another common and simpler design is to use mercury switches.

[scofthe7seas]

You should definitely go for this hardware if you are serious
http://nanotechent.com/mot-ionkit.php

I thought that most who have tried this ended up scrapping it. 

Is that right? I was thinking about that for my hypothetical and likely not real any time soon pinball table.

[Dazz]

@Dazz. WIth a normal tilt bob, though, you don't get any indication of the direction of tilt, which has an effect on the ball in FP and VP (like tilt forward, left right).

Or do you not bother with differentiation?

Just wondering mainly. I haven't really dug into getting on that working on my cab yet.

My current pin uses 3 tilt bobs, left, right, and center.  I just used electrical tape to mask off the section that I don't want the tilt bob to make contact at.  On my new Pinball 2000 build, I'm taking a slightly different approach.

Nudging:
Nudging will be handled via 3 tilt-bobs, 1 on each side and one on the front.  The tilt-bobs will be connected to inputs on the I-PAC2.  The tilt-bob rigs out of wood, an adjustable screw & blind nut will be connected to the ground.  When the tilt-bob hits the screw it will trigger the tilt.  Since the screw will be the only place for the tilt-bob to hit it should be easier to control the motion of the tilt.  The screw will allow to easily adjust the sensitivity of the tilt action.

[ark_ader]

I would be worried which LCD units expire quickly in that orientation.

I have heard that some LCD's do not like laying flat.

[Dazz]

I would be worried which LCD units expire quickly in that orientation.

I have heard that some LCD's do not like laying flat.

LCD's don't have a problem laying flat.  On the other hand, Plasma screens use a real thin piece of glass that will eventually start to sag in the middle and eventually crack. 

[RandyT]

LCD's don't have a problem laying flat.  On the other hand, Plasma screens use a real thin piece of glass that will eventually start to sag in the middle and eventually crack. 

Neither of these statements is completely accurate.  All flat panel displays are vulnerable on their backs.  The larger the display, the more vulnerable they are.  This is why they, and all large, thin pieces of glass, are shipped in the orientation of their greatest strength in relation to the forces of gravity, on their edge.  A horizontal plasma will not crack simply under it's own weight, any more than a horizontal LCD will.  But jarring or banging of either in that orientation can cause them to crack.  It's probably a good idea to provide some sort of shock dampening mount to any large flat panel display, just to be safe.  And under no circumstances should one not use some sort of protective top-glass to keep direct pressure off the face of the monitor.

RandyT

[Dazz]

We've had people with pincabs for 4+ years now.  I don't think I've read anywhere where an LCD cracked from being in a horizontal position.  However, we have seen several plasmas that have cracked within a year.  Perhaps since plasma screens run hotter than LCD's it can soften up the glass after extended period of use time.  I'm sure it's possible for LCD's to crack from a horizontal position, but the time is definitely longer than plasma.  My 42" LCD has only been horizontally for a year now and I've never had any kind of problems with it.  It still looks and acts like it was when it was brand new.  Most people also have foam tape padding and cross braces to help support across the LCD back.  Of course jarring or banging can cause them to crack, but the minuscule amounts of jarring/banging with properly adjusted tilt isn't moving the screen much, if any, at all.  My LCD also rides on rubber grommets, so if there is any screen movement it's the grommets that are taking the pressure.  Really, only time will tell. 

I do agree that having glass over the screen for protection is a MUST! Not having glass could cause anything to happen to the screen.

So, RandyT - I've already talked to Ultimarc regarding the growing digital pinball scene, but I don't recall if we've talked to you about it.  We are needing someone to step up and help develop a analog plunger system.  We have the Mot-Ion kit from NanoTech, but getting one is un-reliable as people are waiting about 4 to 6 months for one. Ultimarc stated that there isn't enough market to warrant R&D, but there is definitely a market and it seems to be growing and picking up steam.  I think it's a potential un-tapped market that's crying out loud for a GOOD plunger solution.

[RandyT]

We've had people with pincabs for 4+ years now.  I don't think I've read anywhere where an LCD cracked from being in a horizontal position.  However, we have seen several plasmas that have cracked within a year.

I'd love to analyze the situations surrounding these occurrences.  Are they documented somewhere?  It could be any number of issues which could have contributed to this, not the least of which is that plasmas are usually much heavier than LCD's of the same size.  As such, much more thought needs to go into the mounting of the panel.  Without good, even support, the weight of the panel can cause stresses which are not present at the same magnitude on something lighter.  The foam rubber weather stripping sounds like a good approach for cushioning, but it also must be carefully chosen.  The same foam could be great on a lighter LCD panel, but could fully compress under the weight of a plasma, offering almost no protection from shock.

So, RandyT - I've already talked to Ultimarc regarding the growing digital pinball scene, but I don't recall if we've talked to you about it.  We are needing someone to step up and help develop a analog plunger system.  We have the Mot-Ion kit from NanoTech, but getting one is un-reliable as people are waiting about 4 to 6 months for one. Ultimarc stated that there isn't enough market to warrant R&D, but there is definitely a market and it seems to be growing and picking up steam.  I think it's a potential un-tapped market that's crying out loud for a GOOD plunger solution.

I have had a working prototype for a while now, but have not pursued it due to cost.  Send me an email and talk to me about what is needed.  I will give it some more consideration.

RandyT

[Malenko]

I have had a working prototype for a while now, but have not pursued it due to cost.  Send me an email and talk to me about what is needed.  I will give it some more consideration.

RandyT

Told ya before I'm willing to beta test (and still pay for the product)

[Dazz]

We've had people with pincabs for 4+ years now.  I don't think I've read anywhere where an LCD cracked from being in a horizontal position.  However, we have seen several plasmas that have cracked within a year.

I'd love to analyze the situations surrounding these occurrences.  Are they documented somewhere?  It could be any number of issues which could have contributed to this, not the least of which is that plasmas are usually much heavier than LCD's of the same size.  As such, much more thought needs to go into the mounting of the panel.  Without good, even support, the weight of the panel can cause stresses which are not present at the same magnitude on something lighter.  The foam rubber weather stripping sounds like a good approach for cushioning, but it also must be carefully chosen.  The same foam could be great on a lighter LCD panel, but could fully compress under the weight of a plasma, offering almost no protection from shock.

So, RandyT - I've already talked to Ultimarc regarding the growing digital pinball scene, but I don't recall if we've talked to you about it.  We are needing someone to step up and help develop a analog plunger system.  We have the Mot-Ion kit from NanoTech, but getting one is un-reliable as people are waiting about 4 to 6 months for one. Ultimarc stated that there isn't enough market to warrant R&D, but there is definitely a market and it seems to be growing and picking up steam.  I think it's a potential un-tapped market that's crying out loud for a GOOD plunger solution.

I have had a working prototype for a while now, but have not pursued it due to cost.  Send me an email and talk to me about what is needed.  I will give it some more consideration.

RandyT

I don't know of any documentation or studies on it other than random forum posts.  The only one that I have seen pics of was the plasma, but I've heard of another one that cracked while in a pincab.  I don't recall if any details were given on that particular build, however I have not seen anything newer reports in quite a while.  So, either it's not happening (yet) or people just are not reporting it through our HyperSpin/HyperPin and VPForums communities.

I sent you an email a few minutes ago regarding the pinball plunger.  Thanks for your consideration.

[drventure]

From what I understood, plasma screens are not intended to be used or even stored horizontally. I've had more than a few people tell me this, and after hearing about the cracks in plasma screens in pincabs, I'm starting to really believe it.

I was concerned about this very problem for the monitor in my cab, which flips down horizontally when stored. It's a DELL 24" LCD and I've had no problems with it in that configuration for several years now.

[RandyT]

From what I understood, plasma screens are not intended to be used or even stored horizontally. I've had more than a few people tell me this, and after hearing about the cracks in plasma screens in pincabs, I'm starting to really believe it.

There has been a lot said about this, but no-one has ever been able to produce any manufacturers warnings which back it up.  Every time I hear it, I ask for one and so far, none have surfaced.  I really believe that it has become a bit of "urban legend".  They are fragile, and I do believe that a couple have managed to break them.  But I don't believe that they broke strictly because they were "a plasma on their backs".

And yes, I will be putting my money where my mouth is.  I have a 42" plasma which will soon find it's way into a virtual pin.  

[scofthe7seas]

Clear and irrefutable evidence.

[RandyT]

Clear and irrefutable evidence.

That's shipping, not use

[scofthe7seas]

I see no evidence that implies that direction is only for shipping.

(I don't know how well sarcasm is translating online )