LEDWiz, LED BLinky and IPAC4 issues?

[drventure]

Ok. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what might be going on so I thought I'd just post and see if anyone else has had issues like this.

Basically, I've got 2, 32port LEDWiz's, and 1, 16 port version. Plus I've got an IPac4.

2 LEDWizs are plugged into the same USB Hub (A 7 port DLINK with a 3.4amp powersupply, should be plenty). The third is directly connected to the PC.

There's 3 other things plugged into that hub, and the hub itself is daisy chained to another hub, which is chained to a third, which is then connected to the base PC (I've got aquite a few USB devices online).

All LEDwizs are powered externally with 5V supplies.

Everything works just fine and LEDBlinky can turn on and off individual LEDs no problem.

BUT

When I run an animation that turns ON lots of the leds (like just about any of the canned animation files), I start loosing USB devices. Typically, the IPAC will either die or keys will just start pressing randomly.

Often, i'll loose the entire hub (as if it's become disconnected).

A reboot solves the problem.

I'm guessing it's a power problem, but I've tried different hubs, and this one now appears to be properly powered to handle a large load on it (it's a dlink hub).

Any thoughts?

[RandyT]

All LEDwizs are powered externally with 5V supplies.

How do you mean this?  You don't have external 5v supplies connected to the USB +5v terminal, only to the parts being controlled by the LED-Wiz's, correct?

[drventure]

Sorry, yes, correct.

I've got a 5v PS connected to the bank voltage selects on the two LEDWizes connected to the 7 port hub. The hub is actually powered by it's own PS.

There's several other devices connected to that hub, including a couple trackballs and a flightstick.

I've had the IPAC connected to that same hub, and, then tried connecting it to a seperate hub farther up the chain (ie, closer to the PC). But I still get the same problems.

It's acting very much like the LEDwizs are still pulling power from the USB port instead of the external PS, but I've got them hooked up correct as far as I can tell, there's 5v at the Bank select terminals and I've got the ground connected to the LEDWiz ground terminal.

I have tried disconnecting the third LEDWiz (that's connected direct to the pc) and it doesn't make any difference, which I kinda figured. So it's definitely something about the two units that are actually in my CP.

I'll keep trying to narrow it down.

Thanks!

[drventure]

One question. Is it possible that if the external PS is underpowered, the LEDWiz would then basically try to draw power from the USB port?

I haven't checked that explicitly. I'm pretty sure I've got a big enough PS to handle all the LEDs, but I'll double check that. I believe it's a 5v wall wart I had in my spare parts bin, so I'm not sure of the current output.

[Nephasth]

How many devices do you have hooked up in your daisy chain of USB hubs?

[RandyT]

One question. Is it possible that if the external PS is underpowered, the LEDWiz would then basically try to draw power from the USB port?

No, not possible.  The LED-Wiz switches the ground lines, so it's not possible for it to pull any current, other than what it uses to run the controller, through the USB power unless you have tapped your power source specifically from that terminal...which you said you haven't. 

Try relocating some things to make sure it's not an electrical noise issue.  Also, verify that the other items on the USB power aren't pulling more than you think they are, and that the power supplies are putting out what they are supposed to.

Also check your wiring.  Make sure there isn't a dead short somewhere that gets activated when you turn on that particular output.

[drventure]

@Nephasth

Lessee.
2 trackballs
2 U360's
Turbotwist spinner
Wingman flightstick
IPac4
LEDWiz32
LEDWiz16
2 PS3 Wireless guitar dongles
PS2 to PC Dual port adapter for dance pads
2 external ports (ie extender cables that run over to external ports on the sides of the CP, generally not connected to anything but I do connect game pads or XBOX drum set).

so that's 14 devices.
I have 2 7port hubs, and a 4 port, so 18 ports total but 2 are taken chaining them together, so 16 total.


@Randy
No, power is definitely not coming from the USB 5v line here. It's from a wallwart.

A short is entirely a possibility, although, I'd have thought that if it was a particular output shorted, that if I lit that individual LED with LEDBlinky, it'd have caused issues. So far, that hasn't seemed to happen. i can light any one light (or various combinations) and not have issues, but when I try to light them all, or most, things start going nuts.

I'm also going to double check all the PS's and make sure they are putting out what they're rated.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

[Nephasth]

I would suggest adding a USB PCI card to your computer to at least eliminate the USB hub daisy chain. Have each hub connected directly to the computer. I would also have each LEDWiz connected directly to the computer if you can. Just for S&G's, try moving your LEDWiz USB connections to the hub connected directly to the computer.

[drventure]

It'd be tough to connect them direct to the PC because of the way my cab is setup (it's not quite a normal Mame cab  )

But I'll try swapping around the LEDWiz to different hubs and disconnecting hubs to see if I can narrow down the circumstances under which things go south.

Thanks for the ideas!

[arzoo]

drv
When did the problem start happening - recently or always? Just thinking that maybe something changed with your setup (hardware or software) that could help narrow down the cause.

[drventure]

Hey Arzoo

No, it's always happened, I just haven't had things setup enough to really get into configuring the lights, so I hadn't worried about the issue till now.

[drventure]

Just an update on this.

My suspicion is that RandyT was right on the money. After a LOT of trial and error and trying to narrow things down, it LOOKS like the problem centers around electrical noise of some sort.

Way back when, I picked up some ELWire that came with a 120v ac to 90v ac converter (The elwire itself requires the lower ac voltage, and very low current).

After testing, it +looks+ like when I have +that+ hooked up, everything's still solid.

BUT, in order to drive the ELWire in my CP proper, I picked up a little USB powered driver. Same thing, basically, though it converts 5vdc to 90v AC for the elwire.

Now, that converter is always powered up, but there's no juice flowing to the ELWire segments till I use LED Blinky to turn on the corresponding LED ports. Within seconds usually, I start hearing USB device unplugged "bong" sounds.


Interestingly, I've got a Lamp sitting close by that I rewired to use a touch dimmer and an AC-DC LED Driver I picked up a while back.

If I DISABLE the ELwire controlling LEDWIZ, turn on the cab, start an animation with LEDBlinky and then TURN ON the lamp, within a minute or so, I ALSO start loosing USB devices.

Short version.... I'm guessing RandyT is right and I've got piles of emr coming off those converters or off the ELWire segments, and that's what's fouling my USB devices.

So I guess now I'm gonna have to rig up a faraday cage to shield the inside of my cp from emr, and at the same time no short anything out!

This thing is really starting to feel Frankenstein-ish

Not sure I'd recommend using ELWire in a cab anymore....

[drventure]

Well, to wrap up this thread for posterity's sake....

The problem (at least so far as I can tell at this point) has turned out to be several fold.

First, The 7 port hubs I have just don't seem to be stable when they have more than 3-4 devices attached. I'm not sure why, but I was actually getting intermittant "usb device disconnects and then reconnects" with the cab just sitting there, no LED's flashing, games playing or anything.

I split the connected devices across 2 7 port hubs that I happened to have and that helped that problem disappear.

Second, I had the hubs (now 4 of them) daisy chained, one to the next to the next. Instead, I connected 3 of them directly to the 4'th hub and then the 4th hub was connected to the PC. This appears to have been the final key to getting the usb ports and hubs stable.

BUT I was still getting dropped connections when I'd fire up LEDBlinky.

Turns out I had one segment of ELWIRE that is problematic. I can actually hear popping and buzzing in my speakers when it lights. If I disconnect THAT PARTICULAR segment, My IPAC4 no longer flakes out, and all usb ports seem to be stable (at least so far).

I'm guessing that the two hair-like wires in that EL segment are "almost" shorting, and causing a lot more noise than they should normally.

Unfortunately, I don't have any more ELWire to replace that segment, so I guess it'll just be out for now.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

[Nephasth]

Good to hear you were able to pinpoint this. 

[arzoo]

And glad it's not software related 

[drventure]

Yes, definitely! So far so good.

And, arzoo, I pretty much knew it couldn't be LEDBlinky related, but it's been great (esp with the supplied animations) for rooting out the real culprit.

LedBlinky as debugging tool...

A new market?   

[arzoo]

LedBlinky as debugging tool...

The current 5.0 release includes a very simple test app that lets you turn on (or off) any single port or all ports and also adjust the intensity. Works for both Ultimarc and GGG hardware. Very useful for testing the LED wiring!

[drventure]

Doh. I think I got your email about that and it just didn't click..

Thanks for the reminder. I'll check it out now!