Alternate control setup for FPS games: any ideas?

[android]

I'd like to be able to play FPS games in my upcoming cabinet, so I'd like to know what people is using to control FPS games like Unreal, Quake, etc. I don't want to use an external mouse / keyboard. That sort of kills the whole point of the cabinet. So what setup are you guys using and how confortable do you find it (i.e. trackball + buttons)? Any other ideas?

[Lilwolf]

I was considering this..

the best I came up with was a mouse on the control panel and the buttons around it...

but thats mainly because I hate playing those games with a trackball and the mouse/keyboard works really well.

[Jakobud]

Have you ever heard of a Madcatz controller they made called the Panther?  They had several different versions for various platforms.  It's discontinued now, but here is a picture of a dreamcast version:



As you can see, basically it's a trackball and joystick with buttons.  I used one, once for a PS2.  I think I was playing some sort of FPS on it.  I really hate trackballs, but this thing was pretty cool.  The only thing I would consider changing is switch the joystick/trackball positions.  Joystick on the left, trackball on the right.

Well anyways, I always thought that this sort of controller setup would be good on an arcade control panel.  I would consider this.  It worked very well, even if you are not a fan of trackballs.

[SirPoonga]

I guess I am too much of an elitists when it comes to fps.  I can't see how anyone could play decently enough without a mouse or keyboard.  At least a mouse.  I know some people get use to a trackball, I can;t do that, but that's what I would use.

I could never get use to playing fps with a controller, I have tried many times, just don't get the control you do with a mouse.  For and old game like quake1 though that did auto aiming a trackball and a couple of buttons is all you really need.

[zr5-2002]

Quake 3 Arena on the dreamcast doesnt use a mouse, and I've found that I can be pretty lethal with the DC controller in Q3A  I think that it uses the analog stick on the dreamcast for aiming though, so we might not gain anything with this method.

[Frostillicus]

I've messed around with a wireless mouse on the control panel and used four buttons from the player one side in a standard 'T' pattern to move around and strafe.  
it's that optical wireless mouse from microsoft - has great range.  I just stick it on top of the cab or inside the panel when i don't need it.  -the big trackball is nice for MAME but really sucks for FPS.

[Dave_K.]

At the Sony Meteron in San Fancisco, they have an arcade with a bunch of machines networked togther running an FPS.  I don't remember the game to well, and I can't seem to find a picture of the interface on google, but I do remember them using some sort of yolk contoller.

I also remember some other fps game at a local arade that used a trackball and arcade buttons...nobody way playing it...

[Generic Eric]

Anyway you can slap a hat switch ontop of an arcade joystick?

Just got done playing Ghost recon w/ a neighbor over the internet...hard to imagine a control panel with all the options that you can have on the keyboard.

[BASSOFeeSH]

I don't see how a trackball & buttons could ever replace a mouse/keyboard.  Maybe it's just me, but I already use more keys for my left hand than are available on most CP's, & I like to be able to hit the mouse buttons WHILE I'm moving the mouse.(Not so easy to do while spinning a trackball)

[Howard_Casto]

I agree, it's mouse and keyboard or nothing.  I hate the fact that with this sophistiaced games I am reduced to such primitave input devices, but I have bught and tried literally every type of analog controller out there and none of them match up, including trackballs.  

Some other things of note for you fps fans out there who recently upgraded your hardware and have found your game is slipping.  It may be your new hardware.  


#1 If your screen frequency is higher than 85 mhz then your old ps2 mouse might not refresh fast enough to keep up and thus jerky movement will result.  

#2 If you have an optical mouse and you have mad skillz (unlike me)  then you can move your mouse so fast that the optical sensor can't keep up.  It's best to use a balled mouse if you can stand it.

#3  If you have a usb keyboard you might as well give up trying to run and jump at the same time. Something about the new-fangled keyblocking and the scan rate of usb keyboards often make them unresponsive to gaming and they can't detect as many keypresses as a standard ps2 one.  This isn't the case for every usb keyboard but there is no way of knowing until you buy it.  

So the best fps setup would be:  

A usb, non-optical mouse with a ps2 keyboard.  

Odd, you bet cha, but it does make a noticeable difference.  

So the question is who do we have to complain to so that future usb devices will be gamer friendly?

[BASSOFeeSH]

It'd be nice to know which devices, because I've seen issues with all types of keyboards & mice.

The think I like best about my optical mouse is the ease of movement(slides easier) & the additional buttons.  

I have a feeling that balled mice are akin to lame duck politicians.(not to mention the ps2 interface itself.

[Silverwind]

For FPS i prefer optical...  

the mouse doesn't really go nuts..  you get much better precision.. (especially when sniping) with an optical...

you ever need to move your crosshair over one pixel for that perfect headshot, but can't because your ball-mouse sticks?  optical mice work good for that..

i plan to get a wireless optical for my cab when it's built..  not sure if i'll use it in the keyboard tray or on top of the CP (assuming there is space)

[Jakobud]

The best fps combo is ps2 keyboard and the Razor Boomslang usb/ball mouse.  Its more precise than any other mouse out there.

[Howard_Casto]

The issues with the mice are this:  

for the slow ps2 mouse syndrome....

The scanrate of the mouse actually is much lower than the refesh rate of the monitor so the screen is acutally moving faster than polling the mouse and thus the true mouse position on the screen isn't rendered.  This causes you to second guess your movement and thus jerky positioning can result.

for optical vs balled....

This one is elementary  laws of physics and common sense.  How a standard mouse works is via a simple led and light sensor.  On, off, on, off that's all it has to deal with.
And optical mouse is slightly different... via various eprom chips (or insert specific techno babble here) and a more sophisticated optical sensor an optical mouse actually records luma values that it gets at two or more points.  When the mouse is moved, the previous readings are compared to the new ones and it decides the direction that was moved by comparing old point a to new point b and ect...  Needless to say this more "analog" approach is much more inaccurate and there is a great margin of error as the surface isn't normalized in texture. or alignment.  The only way you could possibly make an optical mouse as accurate as a regular mouse would be to paint a fine grid in a box and only move the mouse, via a robotic arm (so no twisting of the mouse's orientation)  inside the box.  You see the light values a traditional mouse gets are from a fixed source, namely the spoked wheel inside it.  The "spoked wheel" on an optical mouse is your desk. Now if you think that an optical mouse even has the potential to be as accurate as a fixed wheel mouse then you are just kidding yourself.   Hopefully that will convince any skeptics.  

I wanted to give a quick, simple explaination (see my last post) but you guys forced me to explain it to you.  Sometimes you guys should just trust me on this stuff.  


It's a measurable fact in both cases... and it IS a big enough difference to be perceptable by the human reflexes.  That is unless you have poor reflexes of course.  

Yes a optical mouse is much easier to maintain, but that doesn't make it better, jsut like McDonalds isn't a better restaurant than Red Lobster jsut because McD's is more convenient and more people eat there.  

[u_rebelscum]

Yes a optical mouse is much easier to maintain, but that doesn't make it better, jsut like McDonalds isn't a better restaurant than Red Lobster jsut because McD's is more convenient and more people eat there.  

Preach on HC!  The ball is more accurate, but you have to maintain it.  The optical mouse is not as precise, period.  

Okay, ball mice with dirty rollers are not as accurate as a clean mouse; most optical mouse PR people compare a clean optical mouse with a dirty ball mouse.  But please note that you can also dirty up an optical mouse so it does not work as well as a dirty ball mouse.  If you are too lazy to clean out a ball mouse, or can't keep you desk clean enough to use a ball mouse clean for more that a couple days, maybe an optical is for you.

That said, I'm finding it harder and harder to find ball mice in the stores.  I guess the lazy people and dirty desk people are more numerous and speak with larger wallets than us "old school ballers".

[Lilwolf]

hehe, I work on multiple machines in the same room.  I got one optical mouse to try it (ms, 1st generation of them) and had to replace them all because the opticals are SO much better.  Now I went from a MS roller (ps2) and there are some better trackballs then that....  

but opticals are GREAT and not having to clean them (often...) is worth it.

[TaskyZZ]

The scanrate of the PS2 port for the mouse is something that can be changed.  There is a setting in the registry for it.  I am too lazy to look it up right now, but I know it can be increased.  This was a big issue when USB mice came out because Windows defaults to a higher scanrate for USB mice than it does for PS2 mice.

[Silverwind]

The scanrate of the PS2 port for the mouse is something that can be changed.  There is a setting in the registry for it.  I am too lazy to look it up right now, but I know it can be increased.  This was a big issue when USB mice came out because Windows defaults to a higher scanrate for USB mice than it does for PS2 mice.

use a program called ps2rate.. it does help a lot for Ps2 mice.. you can even up the sample rate higher than USB mice..


however.. i still believe that optical are more precise than ball mice..

under ideal conditions... ball mice still have the friction of the ball against the surface that causes a little bit of drag on the mouse.. making it feel a little less smooth..  
the ball also adds a little more weight to the mouse.. so it takes more effort.. which makes it less smooth in my opinion..

most of the time.. you are not under ideal conditions..  if the ball is 100% clean.. is the mouse pad?  And if the mouse pad is, how about the environment?

I've been to a lot of LAN parties... typically in someones garage since there is lots of space to accomodate tables and switches/etc..  even if your mouse is clean.. it can get dirty in a hurry...  FPS in this situation an optical is no brainer..  

I can't think of any situation a ball mouse (of any type) is better than a high quality optical mouse.... you can debate technical reasons such as sample rate, etc.. but bottom line is "what works better"

[Frostillicus]

I can't think of any situation a ball mouse (of any type) is better than a high quality optical mouse.... you can debate technical reasons such as sample rate, etc.. but bottom line is "what works better"

I agree - in this case, despite any theories on phyics, mechanics, etc, the optical is just way superior in all areas.  Instead of being less presice, the optical feels like it has infinite range, as opposed to most of the old ball mice which, when rolled slowly, felt like they were 'clicking' along a track.  slow it down and feels like 'chunk-chunk-chunk'.  my optical feels like 'sweeeeeet'.  plus - no pausing a game for a dirty ball (that sounds bad)  

[Howard_Casto]

Ugh it's like talking to walls.  The only excuse I can give you people is that you never clean your desk or mouse (that means more than once a year), your desk is lined in shag carpeting making that oh so heavy 3 oz mouse just too much to move, or you have bad reflexes and your hand moves really slow when you play.    

Do optical mice move along a surface easier? Yes they do. Does that make then more accurate. Not a chance.  It is a scientific impossiblity.  Ball friction and other variables make no difference in the debate either. For you see although the balled mouse is slighty stiffer to move, it's accuracty is the same regardless of the speed it's moving due to the fixed, mechanical innards.  The optical mouse's accuray is divided the faster it goes due to the fact that it merely guesses on it's position.  So for slow moving desktop use it will do a good job, but for fast-paced gaming it just won't cut it.   Also top gamers who win tournaments, which you can't really argue with, also agree that a usb, balled mouse is the ONLY way to get an accurate game.  

I'm not trying to run the issue into the ground here, but lets just put it this way...  Those who say that the optical mouse is better.  Are you actually any good at fps games?  I'm talking better than ok, I mean good.  If your not and you want to improve your game then maybe you should try what I suggested.  If you still think that the optical is better for GAMING after trying, I would be suprised.  

For those of you that still aren't convinced there's a simple test.  Take your optical mouse and move it  left and right about a half a foot in each direction as straight as you can and as fast as you can.  Notice anything? Instead of the mouse moving in a fairly straight line it goes all over the place, jumping wildy across the desktop.  If you do the same thing with a balled mouse it will move as straight as you hand is moving.  What you don't move your mouse that fast when you play games?  Then you must really suck.

[Silverwind]

Heh..

I have been playing FPS since wolf3D on a 286..

i've used several types of mice.. both ball and optical.. and ugh(trackball)

optical are much better..  I'm fairly good at FPS..  and why would I want to move my mouse all the way across the pad?  I simply increase the sensitivity.. so I get more on-screen movement per actual movement of the mouse..  problem solved..

yet if I want to snipe or such.. i only need to move the mouse very slightly.. something that you could not do very easily on a wheel mouse.. as you got to move it more than a pixel typically.. which can be hard to do..

ball mice are just plain old..  it's like holding on to an ISA bus.. let it go..

practically everyone I know prefers an optical mouse... now for NON-FPS what do you prefer? and why?

[Dave_K.]

LOL, as usual one very opinionated opinion from Howard (complete with insults to anyone who even dares to refuted his scientific evidence).    Sure a ball mouse may be more accurate when wipping it across a desk as hard as you can (more so than an optical mouse)...but if this is how you play FPS' then rest assure you suck.    As Silverwind just alluded to, playing FPS' is all about fine control.  And this is where ball mice suck...small movements are always prone to ball slipping and other innacuracies inherent in friction based mechanical moving parts.  Using an optical mouse (especially on an optical mouse pad) simply can't be matched.  If you find yourself needing more surface area than the mouse pad provides, then you have the ingame sensativity set to low.

[BASSOFeeSH]

All I can say is that my balled intelliMouse must have been the worst one, because I could never imagine using anything else but optical from now on.

I don't really care which technology is "better", because in practice I prefer the optical.

[Silverwind]

All I can say is that my balled intelliMouse must have been the worst one, because I could never imagine using anything else but optical from now on.

I don't really care which technology is "better", because in practice I prefer the optical.

I agree..

a little off topic.. but I like your avatar... it reminds me of the holograms the real old transformers used to have on them.. where you rub them and they reveal their symbol.. (instead of a fixed sticker)

[Lilwolf]

And howard... as stated before.  I had both a ball and an optical (both MS) right next to each other for almost a year.  The optical is MUCH better.   There are a few companies who made better ball mice, but they cost more then most opticals now, and I think they are all out of buisness.

btw, a mouse will never ever be more accurate then their spinwheels.  So while they are based on that technology (a wheel), you can count the number of wholes in the wheel to find the accuracy.

Talk to oscar about this one.  There is a reason that he is selling new encoder wheels

[Howard_Casto]

And howard... as stated before.  I had both a ball and an optical (both MS) right next to each other for almost a year.  The optical is MUCH better.   There are a few companies who made better ball mice, but they cost more then most opticals now, and I think they are all out of buisness.

btw, a mouse will never ever be more accurate then their spinwheels.  So while they are based on that technology (a wheel), you can count the number of wholes in the wheel to find the accuracy.

Talk to oscar about this one.  There is a reason that he is selling new encoder wheels

You percieve it to be better, big difference from actually being more accurate.  It's like my gun analogy, read above.  And yes, I am well aware of spoke size, this is why you have to get a good mouse, just like you would want to get a good optical mouse.  

Just do the wiggle test man, and as for dake_k's response you don't have to move it that far across the pad to see the inaccuracy, I just said to do it that far so that it's sporatic movement is more obvious.  As usual people are taking what I say much too literally.  

Also as for the "balled-mice are outdated" comment, they are quickly becoming outdated, but the technology isn't ready for gaming level quality yet.  The majority of people unfortunatley just use their computers for surfing the net, and for that an optical mouse is great. That's why they have caught on because believe it or not, a huge amount of non-tech savvy computer users are afraid to open their mouse and clean it.  Some don't even know you can.

I have an optical mouse and I use it for general desktop use because I'm into graphic design and the movement of a optical mouse is much smoother in small spaces and it is pretty darn accurate at slower speeds.  But when I fire up ut2k3 I have to switch over to my good ole' balled mouse.  This time next year I will probably be using an optical mouse for everything, but by this time next year the technology will be more perfected and thus more accurate.  

So don't listen to me, I'll just keep whippin your arses at the deathmatches.

[rampy]

So don't listen to me, I'll just keep whippin your arses at the deathmatches.

OT:

That's actually a good idea...do we ever schedule a time/server/game to frag one another byoac msg board regulars?  I'd love to pump a few virtual rounds into Snaaake or HC or whoever (and i'm sure the feeling is mutual).

rampy

[BASSOFeeSH]

...the movement of a optical mouse is much smoother in small spaces and it is pretty darn accurate at slower speeds...

This is exactly why I prefer optical for gaming.(And I haven't seen the inaccuracy at higher speeds either...no matter what kind of surface I try).  

TASTES GREAT!!

[Lilwolf]

But I don't have UT... sigh... I still want to schedule some kaillera matches... but I can't figure how to get it on my cabinet easily

[Silverwind]

...the movement of a optical mouse is much smoother in small spaces and it is pretty darn accurate at slower speeds...

This is exactly why I prefer optical for gaming.(And I haven't seen the inaccuracy at higher speeds either...no matter what kind of surface I try).  

TASTES GREAT!!

No kidding.. he just iced over the point I was trying to make  I can move my optical mouse pretty fast before it jitters...  if I shake it all the way across the mouse pad as fast as I can.. then it does.. but I have to really slam on it for it to mess up like that..

most of the time in FPS.. using strafte and etc means you turn quicker anyway.. so you don't really need to pound on that mouse quite as hard anyway..

[AGarv]

Ok let me introduce you fellas to the concept of "mouse acceleration."

Mouse acceleration allows your sensitivity to change depending on the speed you move your mouse; excellent players will control their game with flicks of the wrist, the mouse moving at most two inches in either direction.  The same player will have absolute pinpoint accuracy with either a laser or ball mouse.

I compete in OGL and STA, let me tell you there are some absolutely godlike players who use laser mice.  Quite a few still use ball mice as well, but it's more in keeping with the technology they're used to than any advantage in the technology.  Some of these guys have been using ball mice for FPS shooters for 8+ years, and just don't want to mess with their formula.

[Frostillicus]

I have an optical mouse and I use it for general desktop use because I'm into graphic design and the movement of a optical mouse is much smoother in small spaces and it is pretty darn accurate at slower speeds.  But when I fire up ut2k3 I have to switch over to my good ole' balled mouse.  This time next year I will probably be using an optical mouse for everything, but by this time next year the technology will be more perfected and thus more accurate.  

So don't listen to me, I'll just keep whippin your arses at the deathmatches.

oh please. let the balls go.  I am an excellent FPS player(in response to your earlier post) - not as good as my bro I might add (who regularly kicks my butt in BF'42), and he convinced me to get an optical in the first place.  He uses one and consistently is in the top 3 players a game EVERY game no matter the server(usually an EA official one with at least 24 players).  

I don't know how you play, but most people I talk to hitch the sensitivity WAY up so you can move faster on screen with minimum physical movement of the mouse.  Perhaps you tilt your hand a teeny bit when you go side to side quickly, inadvertantly tilting the mouse at the same time.   That would cause the laser to not reflect correctly, but a balled mouse could forgive a slight tilt.

I just can't see a balled mouse seriously competing.  Plus, why do all the super-mega-uber-highend systems from companies like alienware all come with optical mice?  They are GAMING rigs, if it wasn't the best for gaming, it wouldn't be included with the best packages.  I refuse to believe the hardcore systems would package optical mice in their systems just because it is the 'latest' technology(if that was the case, they'd be including those nintendo power glove-like things that are out now   .  They obviously feel it is the latest and greatest, as well.

OT a little: BTW, have you tried the newer, strategy-oriented games like BF'92 and the not so new Renegade?  After playing those real 'team' based games with real goals(meaning not the 'goals' in CTF and counterstrike) it's darn hard to go back to the old fragfests of UT2003 - the demo was just boring and besides felt just like Quake team arena.  Though I guess mindless fun can have it's moments.  Just my opinion on how games are evolving, I think players are demanding more.  'bout time, too.
 

[kspiff]

I believe the networked FPS mentioned earlier (as well as the basis for my FPS control panel plans) was Atari's excellent War: Final Assault -- I still wonder why no ports were ever made.

Anyways...

There are (supposedly) 2 different setups for this machine: one uses an analog trigger stick (right) and 5 buttons laid out like the arrows on a keyboard (with an angled jump button); the other uses 2 analog trigger sticks -- never seen this setup, but it is the 2nd revision and sounds like it might be even better.

You can see the setup (I think) @ KLoV.. the only problem with this type of setup is the price.  I've spent $100 so far just to get 2 sticks (and that was a hell of a deal).  Those thinking of doing an FPS panel might want to do something similar, but with a trackball instead of the analog stick -- but the precision an analog can provide is great, IMO..

And the best part?  The learning curve isn't very substantial for those of us weaned on mouse/keyboard combos.

k-spiff