49-ways, first look.

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I FINALLY actually hooked up one of my 49-ways with the SJC interface.

Initial tests show that the 49-way could very easily become the new joystick of choice.

In 8-way games it performed just like a standard 8-way stick.

It worked very well for Crystal Castles.

[paigeoliver]

Now here is the GREAT news.

The 49-way plays Pac-man almost as good as a 4-way. I was able to run my patterns flawlessly, although I did go the wrong way once when freestyling. Compare to a standard 8-way, where I have trouble even running my patterns. Note, I played speed up pac, not slow pac.

[paigeoliver]

More good news.

The place where this stick really shines is on games like

I-Robot,
Sinistar
Blaster

and other games that originally used 49-way, hall effect, or analog sticks.

As for the feel?

These are a very firm stick. They have a rubber spider underneath, and feel completely different than normal happ sticks, and slightly different than Wicos. It is hard to explain, but they have kind of a texture to the movement (from the spider).

Overall, I would rate these BETTER in feel than any of the Happ/iL/ or Suzo joysticks I have used, but slightly worse than the classic Wico.

I would have to rate these as the best overall stick, since classic Wicos can't play analog games, are are only so-so for 4-way games.

[paigeoliver]

One small note. You HAVE to wire a switch to switch the joystick between the 2 different types of scaling. Switch needs to be ON for most analog games and off for everything else.

[whammoed]

I am not familiar with a 49 way stick.  Does it have the ability to regiser 49 different directions?  How does it do it?  With switches, optics? something else?

[paigeoliver]

The 49 way is optical, it has 3 switches in each direction instead of one.

A regular joystick has 9 possible positions, a 49-way has 49 of them.

[fredster]

What's the difference between 49 way joysticks and "rotary" joy sticks?

I always thought an 8 way joy sitck had 8 positions.  0/dead center is a position? How does 3 X 0 + 8 X 3 = 49?

Can Rotary Joysticks be used on a mame machine with some kind of interface like this SJC interface?  What is a SJC interface?

[paigeoliver]

Um, rotary joysticks are 8-way joysticks that spin in a circle as well. Totallly different.

The 49-ways have 3 switches in each direction, making for 7 possible positions per axis. 7x7=49.

Optical 8-ways were often refered to as 9-ways because they have 9 distinct postions (as do regular 8-way sticks).

SJC only hooks up a single 49way and 10 buttons. You can use more than one of them though, and you can order them with different USB ids, so they won't swap position on bootup.

The SJC is the same basic PCB as the AKI, which is a hookup for normal analog arcade stuff. Forgot how much stuff those boards support but it is a lot.

[u_rebelscum]

The 49-ways have 3 switches in each direction, making for 7 possible positions per axis. 7x7=49.

Not quite true, but close.  (Hmm, re-reading maybe just not complete info.)

I little more detailed info:
Three optical switches per axis.  Centered has all three sensors blocked.  As the stick is moved away from center along an axis, the sensors get uncovered one by one.  With three sensors, there are three levels per direction (two directions per axis).  So 3 + 3 + 1 = 7.  Two axes means 7 * 7 = 49.

(Yes full left and full right both have all sensors uncovered.  The joystick covers this by having another output pin thats on if the stick is to one side, off if on the other.)


And 8-way + center = 9 positions, so 8-way doesn't count center, but 49-way does.  Go figure. [shrug]

[Kremmit]

Edit:  I typed this post earlier this evening, but was pulled away before I posted it.  Several replies have come in since then that covered much of what was it it; that info was removed.

Posted by: whammoed  
I am not familiar with a 49 way stick.  Does it have the ability to regiser 49 different directions?  How does it do it?  With switches, optics? something else?  

If you're having trouble visualizing, this picture may help. (note: ignore the gray shading)

You also may be wondering why use a 49 way?  No, it doesn't go in 49 different directions, the difference is that it senses how hard you are pushing in addition to which direction you are pushing.  Only push the stick a little bit, and you only trip the sensors for the 1st ring of boxes in the pic below.  Push a little further, and you move into the 2nd ring.  Push the stick all the way and you hit the outside ring of boxes.  Games that supported these sticks would vary the speed of your game character based on this, giving you speed control along with directional control.  

[Minwah]

Good info, thanks Paige

I wonder if you would mind testing a few more analog stick games if you can?...I'd be interested to see how it works in Space Harrier in particular, and After Burner & maybe EPROM...Seems to me like Space Harrier etc. *may* require higher resolution than the 49-way could give (?)

Also, what stick is your 49-way?  Wico?  Can you buy these still?

My analog stick kindof blows so I might be looking to switch...

[paigeoliver]

Never played EPROM with the real deal, but it seemed perfectly fine with this stick.

[Howard_Casto]

For non-technically inclined people out their who are still confused on what a 49-way is I like to call them "fake analog" or "chunky analog".  

A digital stick has 4 switches and their combinations give you 8 directions right? Well a 49 way is also sorta digital in that their are fixed positions, but each direction has three levels of sensitivity.  

A real analog sitck has a near infinate level of sensitivity.  

So 49-ways are the same as an analog stick, just blockier, with fixed positions.  

Of course it's optical and has nothing to do with pots, I just think it's easier to understand with this analogy.  



I hope that helps, or it might have made things worse, I dunno.  

Paige, how about a link to the interface board?

[mp2526]

http://dave.bit2000.com

[Minwah]

u_rebel didn't link to it earlier, but I found his 49-way page *very* informative:

http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html

[Minwah]

So 49-ways are the same as an analog stick, just blockier, with fixed positions.  

This is why I wonder about Space Harrier, since the position of the on-screen character is relative to the sticks physical position.  I wonder if the 'blockyness' of the 49-way would make it difficult to reach or stay in certain positions on-screen?

For analog stick games where the 'analog-ness' controls say the speed of a character (eg RoadRunner), I wouldn't think there would be so much of a problem, if any.

[spidermonkey]

Just for the record,Roadrunner uses a hall effect stick which actually does do a much better job then a 49-way does as far as mimicing a true analog stick. Foodfight however does use a true balltop analog stick.  I wish Dave would come up with a board that could interface Roadrunner and I-Robot style hall effect sticks. It would be much easier then trying to hack the guts of a Dreamcast controller.

[Kremmit]

I've got some 49 way sticks for sale/trade if anybody wants em:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=23469

Spidermonkey- you're hacking a Dreamcast controller to use a Hall stick?  How?  Does it work?  I've got a Hall stick floating around here with no way to use it...

[SirPoonga]

Looks like saint may need to update his controls page


49-Way Joystick

    (The bulk of this information taken from a posting by Ray on the message board)

    The 49-way joystick is meant to mimic an analog joystick.  An example of a game it is used in is Sinistar.  Each axis has 6 LED's and detectors:

    +3
    +2
    +1
    0 (center...no LED/detector)
    -1
    -2
    -3

    Since there are two directions, you have 49 possible positions (7x7).  Deflecting the joystick interupts the various detectors so the game board knows how far you've pushed the stick. The game then interprets this however it wants (pseudo analog signal)

    Two options to interface to a PC:  1. Write a driver to remap these inputs as key inputs to an analog input (ouch)!  2. Do some PIC programming (with support logic) to make the digital inputs to an analog output that is suitable for the PC game port.

    Obviously, this is not an ideal joystick to use.

[u_rebelscum]

u_rebel didn't link to it earlier, but I found his 49-way page *very* informative:

http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html

Heh, I forget about it.  

Just for the record,Roadrunner uses a hall effect stick which actually does do a much better job then a 49-way does as far as mimicing a true analog stick. Foodfight however does use a true balltop analog stick.  I wish Dave would come up with a board that could interface Roadrunner and I-Robot style hall effect sticks. It would be much easier then trying to hack the guts of a Dreamcast controller.

The Dreamcast hall effect system is very different than the arcade hall effect system.  Just some of the differences:
DC HE = 5 volts, arcade HE = 12 volts;
DC two sensors per axis, arcade one sensor per axis;
DC sensors are still made, arcade sensor manufactor doesn't do HE sensors any more and haven't for a decade (but neither controller are made any more),
DC based on distance of magnet from sensor ("head-on"), arcade based on orientation of magnet toward sensor ("slide-by"; distance plays very little in this setup).


FWIW,
AFAIK all analog HE sensors on sale now are 5 volts (or close to that).
You can buy analog HE joysticks for industrical use at $200+. ( http://www.chproducts.com/oem/hall_home.html , http://www.p-qcontrols.com/model_112.html )

More info on the arcade's "slide-by" sensing can be found in http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/an/an27702.pdf page 5.  DC's uses two "head-on" sensing setups per axis, one on each side of the joystick (same pdf linked, page 4).


Just use a PC analog joystick.  HE and POT joysticks are interchangable, as long as the ranges match up.

[nighthawk2099]

How does the 49 perform with respect to Street Fighter or the Capcom fighting games?  If they work as good if not better than the 8ways and is as good with the 4way games as you say, this might truely be the new all in one joystick.

[froggerman]

   Two options to interface to a PC:  1. Write a driver to remap these inputs as key inputs to an analog input (ouch)!  2. Do some PIC programming (with support logic) to make the digital inputs to an analog output that is suitable for the PC game port.

    Obviously, this is not an ideal joystick to use.

Using Dave's SJC (Simple Joystick Controler) seems to give you a third option to use the USB port to interface to a PC.

[u_rebelscum]

He's saying it needs to be updated from this:

Looks like saint may need to update his controls page

49-Way Joystick

    (The bulk of this information taken from a posting by Ray on the message board)....
[snip]

to what's in this thread.

[froggerman]

Oops! - I need to read more carefully next time.