Farenheit/Michael Moore links/Lies

[DrewKaree]

First, a few pics I came across:





and what a disgruntled and disenfranchised Wisconsinite did when Kerry said he was going to vote against gun control after he voted for it:


Now....for some links regarding Michael Moore and his movie, Farenheit 911.

The ethical scoreboard - Moore's ethical shortcomings ooze out

59 deceits in Farenheit 911

An Iraqi's commentary and views about the movie

Spinsanity's "The temperature at which his pants burn"

The Atlanta Journal Constitution's commentary - they don't want to be directly linked, so this is copied, but a copy/paste address is included at the end of it

Slate's take on it

Under the hot lights - commentary

Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball's comments on MSNBC.com

Bowling for truth - too many items to list, just see it

Michael Moore: A Psychological Analysis

The American Spectator's commentary

An unofficial transcript of the beginning section of the movie & discussion @ redlinerants.com

mensnewsdaily.com's "The Farenheit 411"

Farenheit Facts

A site billed as "Michael Moore's permanent record"

A site concerning themselves with "Watching Michael Moore's every move" and their review

I think you can clearly see their perspective on him and his movie, as well as mine.  These links are given for you to look at after seeing the movie, or, better yet, if you don't want to throw one red cent his way, information regarding his movie from people who HAVE.  The transcript will allow you to see what was said in the movie as well, and they are working to make it as complete as possible on their own, since Moore won't make his "documentary" transcript available...maybe if someone offers him millions for it, perhaps he will?  meh.

Also to save said red cent (or for "enjoyment"), you can download the movie Farenheit 911 for free by finding the link on one of the sites I posted above (HINT: it's the last linked site I've posted).  Mr Moore has given the world his blessing to do so - here are his words, verbatim, as to his feelings on downloading and watching his movie for free:

I don

[Floyd10]

I dont really see your point at the end.

[Jakobud]

Thanks for all the great links!  I especially like the one that is a blog entry from an Iragi responding to 9/11 and what the US has done for Iraq.  Its a great perspective from someone who is seeing the work the US has done for Iraq first hand as opposed to the critics in the US who base all their judgements off what they watching in the news.  Great stuff!  

Its nice to have information like this posted for all the people who swallow everything Moore dishes out without a second thought about it.

[DrewKaree]

I dont really see your point at the end.

about downloading the movie?  If that's the case, it's just to say do it, if you want to see it....he's telling us to, and you won't have to send any of your money his way.  

If that's not what you meant, lemme know.  You know I'll tell ya...can't keep my big trap shut, James.  LOL

[shmokes]

I agree that Michael Moore's ethics are lacking.  I think he takes cheep shots and, while he doesn't USUALLY outright lie, he deliberately misleads his audience on a regular basis.  He commonly gives quotes and information without context, knowing and in fact desiring that his audience will come to certain, not entirely accurate conclusions.

That said, it's about time the democrats quit taking the "high-road".  Conservatives have been using these tactics for years (Limbaugh, Hannedy & Combs, Fox News, Ken Starr, etc.) and democrats have all but refused to join the fray.  

I personally think that Michael Moore is a lowlife, but we can't just not fight the battle because we don't like the battleground.  Unfortunately, Michael Moore is exactly what the democrats need.   I would much prefer a world without Michael Moore, but only if said world also did away with the ethically bankrupt people listed in the parenthesis is the previous paragraph.  

It's a lose-lose situation.  I hate Michael Moore, but am damn glad we finally have him.

Edit: Yikes!!! Add Anne Coulter to that list.  

[Dartful Dodger]

it's about time the democrats quit taking the "high-road".

Clinton didn't take the "high-road", he said he didn't inhale.

[shmokes]

 

Apples and oranges.

And Clinton also said that it was his first time trying weed and he was hacking his lungs out.  He said that he's sure he WOULD have inhaled if he could, but every time he tried he just started hacking.

Take it for what it's worth (which is very little).  Either way, It has little relevance to what I was talking about in my last post.

[Dartful Dodger]

Take it for what it's worth (which is very little).  Either way, It has little relevance to what I was talking about in my last post.

I understood your last post, you wanted a world without Michael Moore before you wanted a world with Michael Moore.

[shmokes]

Technically I still want the world without Michael Moore.  I just see him as a necessary evil -- the lesser of two evils (the other being the existence of Rush and company without any liberals who use the same tactics).  But I do see him as evil, make no mistake.

I want them all gone, but that's like wanting to win the powerball.  It's just something to say; it's not like it could ever happen.

But I can't imagine many conservatives really disagree with me.  I believe he is an unethical, but effective tool.  Considering the fact that F911 was #1 in the box office a few weeks ago (during summer blockbuster season, no less) and has since then been #2 only to Spiderman,  he is undoubtably effective.  I'm not talking about the hardcore liberals and conservatives who saw the film and just became more polarized than they already were, I'm talking about the fence-sitters who don't always vote, or aren't married to either political party.  The sheer numbers who are seeing this film suggest that Moore is reaching a lot of those.

I hope that explains why I have a love-hate relationship with Moore.  I think he's a low-life, but he is a low-life that might get Bush out of office.  Conservatives may not like him, but I suspect that some of what makes Moore so infuriating is the fact that he IS pretty effective.

...and so on.

[DrewKaree]

I understood your last post, you wanted a world without Michael Moore before you wanted a world with Michael Moore.

LMAO!

As for taking the high road, I'm guessing that the part in Moore's movie where the black caucus was continually bringing up "Myself and my constituents dispute the results" and bringing the argument to the floor despite Gore continually bringing up the protocol for such things was more of your idea of taking the high road.  

I live in the state where deliberately misleading information was brought up the day of the election so as to try to skew the result...something long since settled, and was known about previously....I think you misinterpreted the exit sign for the "high road"....you're actually on the road that's paved with good intentions.

You say Moore is effective...yet agree that he is a deceitful cheap shot lowlife...so his effectiveness then is in luring in mindless (because they will believe the deceits and cheap shots you speak of) people who will vote because of anger (like the lowlife who made the movie they are watching).  So selling your soul (don't worry, I know you don't believe you have one of those   ) is ok, as long as it removes someone as soulless as Bush.  

So you're down with the "Party of Values and Good Hair".  Gotcha.

How are your views on his "Life begins at conception", but "I won't legislate my beliefs on others" (Even though those "beliefs" then make an abortion legalized murder?)  or the statement by both Kerry and Edwards that they will not even show up to do anything about bringing the gay marriage vote to the table?  How about Kerry choosing SOME road, even though I know he's not looking for the "high road".

To quote my current favorite parody song "John Kerry's Waffle House, serving waffles since 1984"

     *edited to add more diatribe  *

[DrewKaree]

How about this for the clickable links?  Take your pick and click away.  Mozilla's a great browser to open these links in other tabs, too!

THIS is what you meant by the "high road", right?

or this...more "high road"...and this road would be higher how???

and as for said "high road", did Halliburton receive the same fate when the Clinton administration offered them similar dealings, shown here?!?  Oh, and you knew that Halliburton was the one who reported their internal problems and was taking steps to deal with them BEFORE the press ever caught wind of it, right?

So then what's being reported by the Senate Intelligence OVERSIGHT (that word has been ommitted, wrongly, as it lets these guys off the hook in mainstream writings) Committee who have this to say about Bush's "actions"...more "high road" reporting?  Or should we compare what they DID say to what they are NOW saying?

And  here - the most UNDER-reported event lately

And since Bush is doing the wrong thing, then Democrats would have voted..ho..ow, exactly?  Let's see, shall we?




SECOND BEST LINK OF THE BUNCH HERE...Kerry acts as Bush's war advisor.  Don't read it if you haven't had your daily dose of waffles to settle your stomach.




Perhaps Newt's interview said it best, but actually, it's what most have said, just that no one seems to EVER want to face the things he says

As for the "only reason" we went there, perhaps you noticed the fact it's been glossed over that they have found them, although not (Bush's words) stockpiles...but you need stockpiles to make it true, right?...why not read what Iraq's national security advisor had to say about this...make sure you check out both pages for the whole story


And for my BEST LINK of the bunch, and MOST IMPORTANT...since no one seems to want to show any pictures from Iraq (unless they are producing outrage, that is) HERE'S here's a BUNCH of pictures showing a DIFFERENT kind of interaction with Iraqi's.  6 people are A-holes, and everyone's willing to throw the rest of "their kind" under the bus...perspective, who needs it, hey?!


I've watched the "high roaders".  I've seen that they believe whatever gets them back into power.  "We've got great ideas for the country, just don't ask us to put them into words".  Actually, it's best put like this:

And for my last link, since Kerry says "he'd do it differently", then Bush MUST be doing the wrong thing, right?  Check out how Democrats would have voted, knowing what they know now. So the Democratic party is going to lead this country..how, again?  By agreeing with Bush before they didn't agree with him?  Change the party symbol to a waffle...wait, I kind of like seeing a donkey for their symbol...fits like a glove.

No, I think what really angers people about Moore and his ilk is the fact that they don't stand FOR something, they're only standing against Bush and offer no workable solution other than "we shouldn't have done it" (and I don't count "we should have talked with them more" as a solution, as those "other countries we should have had behind us" would have done).  The same people disagreeing with us have been shown to have shady deals with Hussein, but that's a widely touted fact, right?.  I should end this by mentioning the fact that Moore is labeled a liar and deceitful by people who agree with the stated outcome he desires with the viewing of his movie...wait, you did that already...well, can't do it enough, I think.  

I wonder if Hezbollah has sent Moore his Jr Terrorist badge yet.

[shmokes]

Drew,

I hate for you to go through all that work, but I doubt that anybody clicks on these links you bombard us with.  Pick one or two of the best ones and post those.  Otherwise others, like me, just scroll past your post to get to the actual discussion.  If we want a giant list of links we already have google.

Even Bush says the we never found WMDs.  He now makes the case that even without WMDs our invasion was justified because Iraq was a declared enemy of America that might one day make WMDs, and in such a case they might one day give those weapons to Terrorists.  That's a lot of mights.  I might make an assassination attempt on the Pope.  I might try to rob a bank.  I might go postal and kill everybody at my work.  But you can't really send the police after me until it is clear that I did these things or WILL do them.  The mere capacity to do wrong is not a jailable offense. President Bush MIGHT give weapons to terrorists.  Many American presidents have.  It boils down to: It is okay for America to invade a country and overthrow its government if said country does not like America and has the ability, or may some day in the unspecified future, have the ability to make dangerous weapons.  Why do you think so many nations, including western democracies, find our actions so deplorable?


I'm fine with his "life begins at conception" but "I don't want to legislate my beliefs."    It means that he realizes that God is probably capable of doing his job.  If he needs to send people to hell, fine.  But as far as society is concerned, making abortions illegal causes more harm than good.  

It wasn't just six ---uvulas---, Drew.  The rest of that report has been leaked.  Take a look at it.  The food being sent to the prison was filled with bugs, rats and dirt.    The prisoners were forced to wade, naked, knee-deep in mud and had no choice but to urinate and defecate in the same mud.  These are just soldiers, for chrissake.  Everybody here has the battlecry, "Nomatter how you feel about the war you should support the soldiers."  That comes from the quite sane idea that most soldiers don't have a choice about where they go or who they fight.  They follow orders.  These are mainly just a bunch of guys fighting for their country and following orders.  You don't think it's a big deal that this stuff is happening to Iraqi soldiers, but I suspect you'd sing a different tune if we found U.S. soldiers suffering similar conditions in a foreign prison.

Well...if I try to respond to any more of your argument my post is going to become so long that even more people will just skip over it.

Try to focus.  Make one or two points at a time and people will be much more willing to read what you've taken the time to write.

[Dartful Dodger]

I hate for you to go through all that work, but I doubt that anybody clicks on these links you bombard us with.  Pick one or two of the best ones and post those.  Otherwise others, like me, just scroll past your post to get to the actual discussion.

That's a false assumption based on your own beliefs and opinions.  Shmokes are you really Michael Moore?

[shmokes]

I hate for you to go through all that work, but I doubt that anybody clicks on these links you bombard us with.  Pick one or two of the best ones and post those.  Otherwise others, like me, just scroll past your post to get to the actual discussion.

That's a false assumption based on your own beliefs and opinions.  Shmokes are you really Michael Moore?

Errr.....hence the words, "...I doubt..."  

Out of curiosity, would a true assumption be one based on the beliefs and opinions of others?  

And about the Michael Moore thing.............ssshhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

[DrewKaree]

Drew,I hate for you to go through all that work, but I doubt that anybody clicks on these links you bombard us with.  Pick one or two of the best ones and post those.  Otherwise others, like me, just scroll past your post to get to the actual discussion.  If we want a giant list of links we already have google.

If more people used google to check Moore's "facts" there wouldn't be as many undecided voters out there, one way or the other.  I don't doubt that many may NOT click on them all, but I don't mind doing it at all, since I highly doubt anyone gets ANY of this information on a daily basis, and if someone just clicks one of them, then my job disseminating information is helping to combat Moore's propaganda...er...documentary.  

Also, I'm doing this for the people who have seen and agree with Moore's movie.  I lost 2 hours of my life I can never get back watching his Kerry ad.  I read and heard numerous cries of "How can you criticize it when you haven't even seen it".  Since I found it important enough to view that movie, (sorry I didn't see Dodgeball, but my ticket stub says I did) the least you can do is take the information I've found and read it.  The onus is on those who wish to disagree with me, because how can you disagree with me when you haven't read the information I have

Even Bush says the we never found WMDs.

you are 100% wrong in making this statement.  You should read the statement he did make.  You  may have heard that there were several items were found, including biological agents.  Click this to see what he DID say. There's a definite difference between the words you're attempting to put into his mouth and what actually came out.  THAT'S another reason I've taken to posting these links.  The words that are said aren't matching up to what the public is being told he said.

What you're glossing over, though, is the fact that MANY MANY MANY others also believed these things, as you can see here...several instances and people, in fact, and expected actions to be taken...see the link I posted about Kerry being Bush's war advisor for specifics on exactly what type of actions...if you'd look, you'd see the man you want to replace Bush extols the virtues of exactly what Bush DID do...but he voted for it before he voted against it.  I think what angers so many about Bush is that he showed no hesitation in making a decision that should have been made years before.

He now makes the case that even without WMDs our invasion was justified because Iraq was a declared enemy of America that might one day make WMDs, and in such a case they might one day give those weapons to Terrorists.  That's a lot of mights.

Make sure you make the whole case.  
"Saddam Hussein had the intent, he had the capability".  Oh, and throw in a little human rights violations against his people.  I can't understand, and perhaps you can help me, why Hussein would use these weapons against his own people previously, but would never produce them to be used against us, his self-proclaimed sworn enemy which he vowed to one day destroy.  And, is there another use for wmd's that we don't know about?  Something the U.N. would agree to, since they were doing inspections to make sure he was eliminating them before we went in?  They didn't want him to have them either, and were attempting to search and ensure he was destroying them, but couldn't do a lot, since they kept getting booted out.  That's like the inmates running the asylum!

I might make an assassination attempt on the Pope.  I might try to rob a bank.  I might go postal and kill everybody at my work.  But you can't really send the police after me until it is clear that I did these things or WILL do them.

that's because we aren't declaring war against you.  Oh, and I WOULD be able to have the police come and visit you for a bit.  They ARE still allowed to talk to someone, right?  Sure, they can't arrest you for those things, but they can investigate the possibility that you might try 'em.  To use your line, apples and oranges.

It boils down to: It is okay for America to invade a country and overthrow its government if said country does not like America and has the ability, or may some day in the unspecified future, have the ability to make dangerous weapons.  Why do you think so many nations, including western democracies, find our actions so deplorable?

I say yes, but for so much more than the simplistic view you present.  The fact that he would use such weapons against his own people, would look to use them against us, would thumb his nose at the U.N. everyone is so fond of praising, defy the U.N. resolution everyone wanted us to get FIRST before declaring war...as for the "so many nations"...I'm fine with Poland, Spain, Britain, Japan, et al being secure enough in the knowledge that we were doing the right thing.  It's the countries (France, Russia, Germany being the notables) who were found to be running shady deals we Americans are so quick to castigate our companies for...those are the people who disagree with us?  I'm surprised they could see our "wrongdoings", what with the friggen plank in their eye.

I'm fine with his "life begins at conception" but "I don't want to legislate my beliefs."    It means that he realizes that God is probably capable of doing his job.  If he needs to send people to hell, fine.  But as far as society is concerned, making abortions illegal causes more harm than good.

I find his selective reasoning further promotes the "Waffle House" image and wonder if even you know where he stands on an issue.  You say that "It means", but until you show me where he has ever said that, then you're arguing something purely conjectural.  Let the man stand for something, open his mouth and make a stand, or tell us what "it means".  Right now, all he continues to tell us is that he voted for it before he voted against it.

It wasn't just six ---uvulas---, Drew.  The rest of that report has been leaked.  Take a look at it.

I've done the nice thing for you...I've given you (in your opinion ) link after useless link to bolster my charges, but you say something like this, and don't give me any information.  Show me the money.  I'm willing to concede that there may be more than six people.  I'm willing to eat my hat on this issue.  I just need to see some more information.  That's kind of unfair on your part, too, to make such a claim and give me no basis for it.  Please show me where you've seen that.  I like discussing this stuff with you!  

As for the charge "Everybody here has the battlecry, "No matter how you feel about the war you should support the soldiers.", I believe that.  If you didn't have brave men fighting for you long ago, you might not have the freedom to say the things you do, just as I might be more fluent in German!

I do believe that "most soldiers don't have a choice about where they go or who they fight.  They follow orders.  These are mainly just a bunch of guys fighting for their country and following orders."  I also believe that there's a reason we haven't had a draft.  Enough people volunteered their lives for the military so that we wouldn't have to be taken to do their job.  

You don't think it's a big deal that this stuff is happening to Iraqi soldiers, but I suspect you'd sing a different tune if we found U.S. soldiers suffering similar conditions in a foreign prison.

You're putting words in my mouth...please use salt next time  I do think it's a big deal, I just won't throw the vast (I don't know a figure to define it, so vast will have to do) number of soldiers "under the bus" who are doing an admirable job.  That's my point.  Click the "most important" link I posted.  Where have you seen pictures like that?  I'd be willing to bet several month's wages that you haven't seen it in the general newspapers or television...wait, I'll clarify.  I'd bet you haven't seen anywhere near the same coverage that the prison scandal gets.  I'll wait until we take all our soldiers out of Iraq, if you want to wait that long.  You'll NEVER see the good we do focused on with the laser lights they use to point out "a bunch" (I'll use that phrase until you get your info to me) of people and their wrongdoings.

Well...if I try to respond to any more of your argument my post is going to become so long that even more people will just skip over it.

witty repartee, I like it

Try to focus.  Make one or two points at a time and people will be much more willing to read what you've taken the time to write.

There's too much to comment on!  Are you saying you'd like to see 5 posts with 2 points on them in a row?!  My "Evil Conservative Industries" sig will make those 5 just as long as these...6 of one, bakers dozen of another....sorry, that's that new math!

And about the Michael Moore thing.............ssshhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

Mikey, you magnificent b&#tard!  Have a sandwich, wouldja?!  You're looking a little haggard!

[DrewKaree]

It wasn't just six ---uvulas---, Drew.  The rest of that report has been leaked.  Take a look at it.

I've done the nice thing for you...I've given you (in your opinion ) link after useless link to bolster my charges, but you say something like this, and don't give me any information.  Show me the money.  I'm willing to concede that there may be more than six people.  I'm willing to eat my hat on this issue.  I just need to see some more information.  That's kind of unfair on your part, too, to make such a claim and give me no basis for it.  Please show me where you've seen that.

Am I to assume that you're looking for the report and will post a link when you find it?  I will assume that you haven't been online, I know "life" tends to intrude into our online worlds, and haven't been able to post it.  

I'm also hoping you can find me a link to somewhere that lays out Mr Wilson's lies and the apology for touting his information as gospel regarding the current administration.  I have yet to see anything like that, and as of this posting, his information is still being used on a Kerry website as truthful, accurate, and the reason the administration should be (pulling out, apologizing, eating their hat, wearing sackcloth and wailing, take your pick).  

I'm gonna keep posting links, but I'll take your format and use that.  One or two at a crack.  I'm still waiting for your response to the "Taking the high road" links I've posted, so to narrow the discussion, I'll be looking for a response to that point, and your link about the leaked report.  

Cheers

[abrannan]

Drew,I hate for you to go through all that work, but I doubt that anybody clicks on these links you bombard us with.  Pick one or two of the best ones and post those.  Otherwise others, like me, just scroll past your post to get to the actual discussion.  If we want a giant list of links we already have google.

If more people used google to check Moore's "facts" there wouldn't be as many undecided voters out there, one way or the other.  I don't doubt that many may NOT click on them all, but I don't mind doing it at all, since I highly doubt anyone gets ANY of this information on a daily basis, and if someone just clicks one of them, then my job disseminating information is helping to combat Moore's propaganda...er...documentary.  

1.  I don't click on a lot of the links you post, because when I do I find very little substance there.  

Even Bush says the we never found WMDs.

you are 100% wrong in making this statement.  You should read the statement he did make.  You  may have heard that there were several items were found, including biological agents.  Click this to see what he DID say. There's a definite difference between the words you're attempting to put into his mouth and what actually came out.  THAT'S another reason I've taken to posting these links.  The words that are said aren't matching up to what the public is being told he said.

Ummm....  The link you posted only has Bush saying (and I'll quote it so nobody has to click the link)

[DrewKaree]

1.  I don't click on a lot of the links you post, because when I do I find very little substance there.

but you do click on some.  Your opinion of them is fine with me, everyone's entitled to theirs, and those that are of a similar opinion as mine DO find them to be helpful, as evidenced in this thread.  It also leads me to believe that there are many who hold similar opinions that do not post here.  I don't expect them all to say "WAY TO GO!  GIVE IT TO 'EM!", but I'll extrapolate those that have said thanks to mean keep it up.

Ummm....  The link you posted only has Bush saying (and I'll quote it so nobody has to click the link)

[Floyd10]

Um, Drew. Your link does nothing to prove that Bush didn't say it. It's Coulter and o'reilly for christs sake. two republicans arguing, and one babbling incoherantly: Lied lied, bush lied

btw, isnt ironic, that their spewing about the lies of the press, when they're on a news show?

[Floyd10]

The real Liberal Agenda:

http://www.ericSchwartz.com/video.html

scroll down smart one

[Jakobud]

Thank you for all the good links Drew!  We appreciate it!

[FractalWalk]

Conservatives may not like him, but I suspect that some of what makes Moore so infuriating is the fact that he IS pretty effective.

I think what bothers conservatives, is that he is effective (he is), but rather that the mainstream media blindly swallows what he says. The same can not be said of someone like Rush who is pretty much villified by any public personality that isn't on talk radio.

Now having said that, I think F911 is beyond the abilty of the media to just accept it at face value. Even Time and Newsweek have questioned his "facts".

[DrewKaree]

Um, Drew. Your link does nothing to prove that Bush didn't say it.

You're asking me to prove a negative (in my opinion)...just because shmokes said Bush said it doesn't make it true...the burden of proving it lies with him.  What I am doing is making an assumption based on reasoning that if, indeed, Bush HAD said we have not found WMD's, it would have been trumpeted over and over, shouted from the highest mountaintop.  I have also assumed that the words Bush said are what shmokes is referring to when he says "Even Bush says the we never found WMDs."  I'll state my position, as well as offer the challenge to anyone else who wishes to assist shmokes on this:  If you state something as fact regarding the words that came out of someone's mouth, post a link to the quote to back up your position - also, don't be so disingenuous as to post a "cut and paste-d" quote from someone i.e. cutting out the "STOCKPILES" from his oral offering - unless you're Michael Moore...then, let us know it's you so we can praise you or throw rotten eggs, whichever way the individual leans politically

btw, isnt ironic, that their spewing about the lies of the press, when they're on a news show?

it would be ironic, but only if there would be a more even-handed treatment of things that are reported on by someone other than a cable news show.  I, for example, don't have cable and thus can't watch O'Reilly unless I go to my father-in-law's house.  I never knew he disagreed with Ms Coulter on this subject until looking at that page!  And to think, he's considered part of the conservative propaganda machine too!  Realize that whoever has the most sensational, salacious, "OHMYGODREALLY?!?" story will be the one who gets the ratings...why do you think Rush has as large an audience as he does?  He angers people as well as soothes the conservative soul!  People who disagree with him want to listen to see what he says so they can tell their friends "And did you hear what that jack-hole Limbaugh said?!?".  

The real Liberal Agenda:
http://www.ericSchwartz.com/video.html
scroll down smart one

I didn't have Him on there, but I will try to make sure He doesn't go on there again!  I wasn't able to download that 10 Mb file yet, but I'll view the movie when I do get that done.  WHERE on earth do you find these links, James ?  I'll assume it's like the rest of them I've seen from you, and say nice job   Whenever I check out your links, I wonder what you were like as a kid - were you the one who realized you had to play with matches to light the propane cylinder to get the blowtorch started to melt the G.I. Joe?    What can you expect from James St James, though, hey?


Jakobud, check here shortly...I'm gonna drop the transcript of the movie as well as the 59 Deceits paper - prolly zip it up so you can download and print it if you so wish.  I'm trying to condense first, though.  That way, you can read it without seeing it and then coherently argue with your pro-Moore friends and enemas.

Michael Moore should thank me for providing all this interest in his movie.  Perhaps I'll ask for last week's gross of the movie

[Floyd10]

okokok. Just a question, we are doing this all in fun right? no bad blood? ok. I hope so. Btw, who are you voting for DK? Just a shot in the dark, but Nader.

BTW tell me what you think of the vid. Very funny stuff. and GET ON AIM!

[MasTequila]

Everyone saying that Moore has made the mainstream swollow blindly what he puts out is true but remember that lots of other news stations and websites do this as well.

I don't follow all this as much as I should but I know there are some very funny websites that are anti-bush on www.howardstern.com.  My opinion is that the bottom line is if he wasn't George Bush's son he would be sweeping some floor somewhere instead of being a leader of the free world.

~Mas

[fredster]

If you want to see the true Liberals and how deeply they think, go to www.protestwarrior.com, that's the real story

GO DREW

[DrewKaree]

okokok. Just a question, we are doing this all in fun right? no bad blood? ok. I hope so. Btw, who are you voting for DK? Just a shot in the dark, but Nader.

BTW tell me what you think of the vid. Very funny stuff. and GET ON AIM!

Not necessarily in fun, but I never mean anyone harm.  I just like discussing this stuff, James    Unless you crack wise about my momma or accuse me of not caring cuz I'm an evil conservative, then there's truly no bad blood.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and that's probably closest to the real reason there are two sides to opinions on the war.  

I actually would have been voting for whoever the Libertarian party threw up there, but I realize this next election won't be about a third party this time (that, and I think Nader's a wack-job...I may go to his rally and pour out gasoline on the ground or empty a few cans of hair spray into the atmosphere...look for me, I'll be on the news with Nader trying to choke the life out of me!), so I'll be throwing my vote at the Republican party.  

I'll prolly be DL'ing the vid tomorrow (real-life intrudes tonight, I'm just replying from work before heading home), and I'll let ya know.  Hey, mebbe you rememeber some song about a "plastic Jesus on my dashboard"?!?  Shot in the dark, but I figure if anyone knows of it, it'd be you  

Everyone saying that Moore has made the mainstream swollow blindly what he puts out is true but remember that lots of other news stations and websites do this as well.

you'll never hear me say they've swallowed blindly what he puts out.  I believe they use his film and similar things like it to promote their agenda while trying to maintain an appearance of balance.  See, putting his stuff in an article lets the writer off (to a certain extent) because if someone disagrees with them or accuses them of being partisan, they tend to fall back on "I'm just reporting on what happened, that's all...it's a sheer coincedence that I happen to be a card-carrying member of the communist party".  For all those who think those people don't exist, see Glenn Beck - and listen to him for a while if he comes in by you (make sure you check out his theory as to why you'll hate his show until a few weeks go by, too!) and check out his staff...he's got an actual card carrying member!  

My opinion is that the bottom line is if he wasn't George Bush's son he would be sweeping some floor somewhere instead of being a leader of the free world.
~Mas

Ya know, I was just thinking the same thing as I watched MY Ivy League graduate janitor sweep up our shop   C'mon, man, be a little more intellectually honest.  That's not your opinion, that's just what you'd LIKE to see him doing.  As it is, it must grate on you like nails on a chalkboard that he gave you back some "extra" money in your paycheck and now you have to figure out how to give it back to some organization better suited to doling out your money than yourself.  Send it here... www.drews_cabinet_fund.org  Thousands (ok, just my OWN) of kids are hoping to play Pac Man...won't you help them realize their dream    

If you want to see the true Liberals and how deeply they think, go to www.protestwarrior.com, that's the real story
GO DREW

DUDE!  That link is sweet!  I"m bookmarking that at home...thanks!

Fredster, what Jakobud said, man

Thank you for all the good links Drew Fredster!  We appreciate it!

I'm a-gonna make it my goal to convert Floyd and Shmokes into Glenn Beck fans...and...if I work hard enough at it...doggone it...think I can, I think I can, I think I ca.....

[MasTequila]

How about a janitor with a DUI or one that can barely even speak english correctly (go ahead and goole his fantastic quotes, try "bush funny quotes") or a janitor they can't even prove served in the national guard because they "lost" his records.

Ivy league please, you think daddy didn't have any pull in that one, and even then Ivy league is a football league not a golden path to greatness.  Now you are being intellectually dishonest.

Anyway did you know that in most states you will have a very hard time becoming a police officer if you have a DUI yet our dynamo P and VP have 3 together. GO TEAM!!!

~Mas

[fredster]

janitor they can't even prove served in the national guard because they "lost" his records.

Ok. I was in the Army, the Army reserve, and the National Guard. They lost my records too. 2 years worth. I served 9 years total. Obviously, you have never been in the military.  If they had his records this long it was a miracle.

Chaney had a 2 DUI's? Wow. I don't recall seeing that. Got a link to that?  
But you are right, MasTequila. They'd have trouble getting to be cops in one or two states. Bus Driver's too.  Our Former president, as honest and decent as he was couldn't hold his lawyer's licence in Ark because of that little episode with Monica and her cigar. Seems he misrepresented something somewhere.  

I guess we can forgive people if they are Democrats though. And since Bush got his younger life in order and doesn't drink anymore, we should never give him any credit, after all, he's a conservative.  They can never reformed huh?

I guess that even when the 9/11 commission revealed the other day that the "yellow cake" from Niger was actually pretty good intel, we shouldn't admit that either.  Seems like the CIA Agent/Talk Show guest that rebuffed him is working for Kerry now. Huh.  

Michael Moore is a "stupid white guy". I don't really know what this man wants, and I really don't know if he does. He is backing away from serious discussion on it.  He knows he's put out a piece of work that is making money and he's playing it for all it's worth.

It all comes down to two sides.  One side thinks Bush is honest and is working in our best interests.  The other side thinks he's not and he has some agenda.  

After we get to that, the discussion always gets to name calling and slogans.  So we know the issue.

Nobody questioned the intel at the time.  Saddam was a maniac.  His sons were even more bent. They were waiting for a time they could come out with force and take over the middle east.  Remember in '90, Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world. He had capabitlities and he was ruthless. I feel safer now that the machine he had is destroyed. I fall on the "Bush is honest and is working in our best interests" side.

[rampy]

fwiw, (I didn't read all the posts in this thread, my noggin is full at the moment)  my buddy runs a site for this type of political discussion...   myspinzone

currently there are more "right" leaners than left leaners on the site (or at least are active/proficient posters)

*shrug* if political discourse is your thing, check it out (d-bunk the lies, d-bunk the d-bunkers, support your point of view) the original poster would fit right in =)

You'll actually won't find me over there (anymore) as i've foresaken arguing about politics on the internet =)

rampy

[MasTequila]

Yes you are right I have not been in the armed forces before, I never claimed to be.  I guess maybe missing records is a common thing but then again I am going out on a limb here and saying you are not the offspring of a former President.  They may keep tighter hold of those, but I do not know.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20778 There you go, it does not give great detail but it says they both have DUI's and I am pretty sure Cheney has 2, if i am wrong than I retract saying it, I am no expert on this.  In fact this will be the first election I am able to vote in because of my ripe old age of 20.  

Also I do not doubt that Bush is trying to help us but I don't think he is doing that good of a job.  After this 4-year bang up job it will be hard for the US to get back into the international standing it had.  With basically telling the UN to f off cause we are going to Iraq and with all this abuse over there now, our "good" name got put in the dirt because of the people at the wheel (Bush, Rumsfeld, etc..).  

Now all I hear about is americans getting kidnapped and decapitated.  As someone who was involved in the armed forces I would like to know if you think the soldiers/US Staff were just having fun, acting on their own or if their orders to do that "abuse" came from Rumsfeld or someone else.

None of this is meant to offend anyone and if I have done so I apologize, I said before I am no expert and these are my opinions.

A few other things I do not like bush for are:

-Gay marriage
I am not gay, in fact I don't even think I know any gay people but if they want to make some kind of law for that the last place it should be is on the constitution.

-Stem cell research
The advancement of science is very important to me and I am against his views on stem cell research.

-Abortion
I am male (heh) and while I believe that abortion is wrong I believe that women should have the right to choose.


~Mas

[Floyd10]

I'll prolly be DL'ing the vid tomorrow (real-life intrudes tonight, I'm just replying from work before heading home), and I'll let ya know.  Hey, mebbe you rememeber some song about a "plastic Jesus on my dashboard"?!?  Shot in the dark, but I figure if anyone knows of it, it'd be you

Yes I happen to have heard it 3 or 4 times. The band was in rotchester (my homestretch), so I heard about it all the time on the news. lol. well maybe twice. Wasn't it also in a kevin smith movie? Hmm, Im gonna change my title.

To everyone:
Watch that vid. all reasons why Im against bush.
He does exagerate a little, I'll admit (on the taliban comment). After you see it, I'll explain for him.

[8bit]

Hahaha oh people just care to damn much about Michael Moore.  I frankly think he should go back to doing satire like Canadian Bacon.  When I first saw Bowling for Columbine, I picked up on what Moore's original intentions were with the film since prior to it I had read an article that was about him discussing to Richard Linklater about the the evolution of documentrys and his new project Bowling for Columbine.  However as we all know Moore has heavy political tones within much of his work which tends to overshadow the point of the film.  Bowling for Columbine went from exploiting the questioning of why the acts at Columbine occured to that the film was a forefront of anti-gun propaghanda.  About 1 month after the movie came out, Bowling for truth aired onto the internet.  I read it up because I was curious as to what political analyst were refering to this movie as "its not a documentry" and "the movie is full of lies".  As a fox news viewer, I saw arguements made over the movie and that the anaylsts like O'Reilly and Hannity were using the information that was from this site.  However when I actually looked into the site I saw what they were refering Moore as to lying about.  Most of it was completely ludicrous and having nothing to do with factual information what so ever.  Case being arguements made about "Moore gives false information that violent video games do not cause violence" and followed it up with a study conducted by a company whos parented by a christian organization who also parents a 2nd ammendt rights lobbyist campaign.  My favorite part of all of it was watching political analyst with no background in film what so ever try and debunk it as a documentry.  It was absolutely priceless.  I think all of these who are trying to debunk Moore such as Michael Wilson (who is making the film Michael Moore Hates America) are no better than Moore and in many cases are even more biased than Moore himself.

Your only greasing the gears that make Moore tick more every time you pollute his controversiality amoungst the public.

[fredster]

You are right 8bit.

Any publicity is good publicity for Mr. Moore.  I'm done with this thread.

[shmokes]

Am I to assume that you're looking for the report and will post a link when you find it?  I will assume that you haven't been online, I know "life" tends to intrude into our online worlds, and haven't been able to post it.  

Yeah...sorry.  I haven't even been looking for the report (much of my daily news intake comes from NPR.  It's difficult to link to as it is spoken word (of course I could link to streaming audio and you can listen to the story, but I'm sure you'd rather something written).

Hopefully I should have some time today or tomorrow to do a little research and respond.

[Dartful Dodger]

There's still a chance for America to be strong and free after this next election.  Hopefully the people that do believe Moore are also to stupid to vote correctly (like the voters in Florida).

Vegas casino gives singer Linda Ronstadt the boot after performance

<sup>Before singing an encore, she called Moore a "great American patriot" and "someone who is spreading the truth." She also encouraged everybody to see the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11."

Her comments drew loud boos, and some of the 45-hundred people in attendance stormed out of the theater. People also tore down her posters and tossed cocktails into the air.</sup>

It seems I underestimated the common sense my fellow Americans have.  I too will not post to any more of these idiotic threads. (no offence Drew, I know why you started this, and your efforts helped renew my faith in the American people)

Don't forget to vote, unless your a Moore fan, then you should go see his movie on election day.

[Santoro]

There's still a chance for America to be strong and free after this next election.

Amen.  Based on the media coverage, I was beginning to think the American public just was too stupid to see through Moore's blatant propoganda.  This story gave me a much-needed shot of confidence in the American intellect.

I cherish the thought of this self-righteous star being escorted out of the casino with her belongings.  I would have paid to see it.  Classic.

[Floyd10]

Amen

[allroy1975]

Am I to assume that you're looking for the report and will post a link when you find it?  I will assume that you haven't been online, I know "life" tends to intrude into our online worlds, and haven't been able to post it.  

Yeah...sorry.  I haven't even been looking for the report (much of my daily news intake comes from NPR.  It's difficult to link to as it is spoken word (of course I could link to streaming audio and you can listen to the story, but I'm sure you'd rather something written).

Hopefully I should have some time today or tomorrow to do a little research and respond.

haven't yo picked up on the point of what EVERYONE complains about from the right?  Any kind of media (except web pages and other sources that PRINT) are run by bad bad people?  the people who want our country to fall apart?  it's all a conspiricy if you heard it on the radio (unless it was rush...the fat drug addict guy who's been divorced 2 times[at least that's what I saw printed on a T Shirt..]...not those 3 guys who sound like women, but are good on drums) or saw it on TV.  

This whole attitude of "well if someone took the time to write it down ..it has got to be true" just blows my mind. I clicked on 2 or 3 of Drews links and it's like....there are so many of those ads on the sides of the "article" that I suspect they may be home made by him on tripod or something.  

What "well respected" paper was it that just had the guy who was just making stuff up and putting it in the paper?  I don't think he made it up, because he wrote it down.  right?  that's how it works?

For the love of god.  How can people argue that one side is right and the other is wrong when they're all as crooked as they could possibly be!?

And who cares if gay people want to get married?  Some of the weddings I go to put an emphasis on LOVE.  If 2 gay people LOVE each other enough to make it legal, why shouldn't they be allowed to be as miserable as the rest of us?

this stuff just irritates me, and I shouldn't have clicked on this thread...but I read a few posts and had to yell at someone about your opinion is your opinion.  It's not right.  It's not wrong.  It's yours and thats all you can say about it.  

The real problem in this country is no one is responsible for anything and everyone is upset.   Everyone gets "offended".  I can't even figure out what that means.  I've never BEEN offended.  I can't imagine being so arrogant that if someone calls me a name or says something I don't like it would actually bother me.  It's their opinion, and they're entitled to that.  

Yeah, Hooray for those people a the Linda Ronstadt (Linda Ronstadt for chrissakes!) show.   Someone said something I didn't like...that means I can throw my drinks and tear the place apart.  Jesus!  are we animals?  why is a singer talking politics the story here?  what about all the idiots who went balistic because they heard some words in a certain order and it upset them?  

Yeah....hey, here's a call out to all you psychos at the Linda Ronstadt show...get out there and vote!  you seem like very stable people....please don't come to my town.

My point is who really cares about any of this...kinda like 8bit pointed out a few posts ago.  I think about a few things....

When clinton was president he got the gig by being cool and playing the sax!  and I was happy and all my friends had good jobs and everything was cool.  Then when bush got elected, I and some of my friends lost our jobs, we don't make as much money now and I see posts on my favorite FREAKING PAGE ON THE INTERNET about how MY BEST FRIEND FROM HIGH SCHOOL JUST GOT KILLED BECAUSE OF OUR WAR.  

I'm sure that Clinton had nothing to do with my job or anyone elses and I'm sure Bush didn't have anything to do with getting all those poor people killed.  But for me, my life and attitude seemed better when there was a Democrat in office.  

Do I need to watch a movie or read a bunch of internet sites (that someone took the time to type up!) to know this stuff?  nope...I just remember.  

Now, I want you all to just reply and say how right I am, and you're all sorry that you tricked me into reading this post.  If you don't I'll be very upset.  If I get too  upset I might get offended....and when people get offended, that's when lawsuits start flying.  

(Saint, if you happen to read this, i'm not really going to sue anybody...I'm a normal person who beleives people should have the right to their own opinion, so when everyone tells me what a stupid idiot fatso loser I am, I can take it...I won't get offended or sue anyone...don't ruin all their fun and close the post and for god's sake don't close th forums!    )

Allroy

[mr.Curmudgeon]

There's still a chance for America to be strong and free after this next election.

Yeah, as long as Bush is voted out of office.

How anyone can support the ultimate flip-flopper is beyond me.
02.08.04:
"I'm a war president."

07.20.04
"I want to be the peace president"

You trust this man with our soldiers? Our Country?


P.S. I never wanted to read this thread since I didn't want to mix something I enjoy (arcade machines) with something I don't (politics)...but I clicked on it hoping the majority of posts would be sensible. Political discourse has gone to hell since 2000. Oh well.

Bush, The Great Divider.