Wire length

[OneNutt]

I currently have 2 control panels built, one for player 1 and one for player 2. Both are made from USB keyboard hacks. I want to remake these and make them smaller so they will fit on a lap and I can play sitting on a couch where it's easier to pass out. The Ipac's look like a good solution to keyboard hacking, my concern is the length of wire from the Ipac to the buttons. My thought is to make 2 panels, with the Ipac in the 1st player panel (connecting to the PC via a USB hub), and the second would connect to the first using network cable as an "extension cord" for the buttons. Ideally I would like to have about 15 feet of cable, in case someone wants to sit on the floor or whatever, making the wire from the button to the Ipac roughly 25 feet in length. Does this sound feasible or am I dreaming thinking the signal will make it that far?

[Sasquatch!]

You're talking about the wire from the Player 2 CP to the Player 1 CP, right?  I don't *think* there would be a problem with that, but I haven't tried anything like that myself.  You could always email Andy at Ultimarc and see what he has to say on the matter.

[Tiger-Heli]

Ideally I would like to have about 15 feet of cable, in case someone wants to sit on the floor or whatever, making the wire from the button to the Ipac roughly 25 feet in length.

Huh, the I-PAC is in Panel 1 and Panel 1 isn't 10 feet wide, is it?

You mean 25 feet from the P2 buttons to the PC, correct?

I don't see any of this as a problem, but I haven't done it myself, so can't say 100% for sure.

[OneNutt]

No, I mean I have 2 INDIVIDUAL panels using 2 INDIVIDUAL keyboard hacks, and I want to eliminate the need for it and use 1 Ipac.
http://www.onenutt.com/Console/007.html
You can get a visual of current. I want to make it so player 2 plugs into player 1, therefore the buttons for player 2 would be connected to the Ipac in player1 using about 20-30 feet of wire. (roughly) It seems like it shouldn't be too much of an issue, just though someone might have an idea on how long is too long for a button wire to run. I am concerned about the signal not making it, but the only thing I know about electricity is not to touch it.

FWIW, I emailed Andy and his reply was:
"The USB part would be OK.

Regarding the cable extension, I cannot guarantee this will work. When the
switches are not presses, each cable is a long un-terminated end and could
pick up interference. I would say that 50 feet might well be rather long for
it to work reliably. Probably 15 feet would be a realistic maximium.

But there is no reason not to try it. I have not done so, but just have an
idea there might be problems."

[JesterDEV]

Just an idea. But why not just built a small separate housing for the ipac, then run the cables from that to each control panel, or the the first one, then from there to the second? This may not cut down the the length, but might make it a  bit easier overall.

I was thinking about this just today (wire length). So I decided to see what would happen. I took about 20 feet of wire and connected it to my ipac, and then to a button. I used notpad to test it out and it worked quite well. I didn't see any signal loss at all. But that was just 20' not 50'. I would think that the signal would still make it, but it would be off by a few milliseconds and maybe a second. Either way, I would try it with a single button and see what happens.

[GroovyTuesdaY]

Onenutt, i really like the idea you have going there!!   The only thing, its like you mentioned, it would be nicer if they were small enough to plop on your lap.   I think the best bet would be to make a small box to mount the ipac into, then run the wires from the panels into the box.
Just have to make the wiring so that if it gets pulled and yanked or worse case some trips on a wire,that  it doesn't hurt the ipac or rips any wires off of your buttons. That would just plain suck.
I do think that using some wire that is encased (ie: CAT5 cabling) would make it alot safer and nicer.
Be sure to post some pics again when you get it all done to your satisfaction and maybe post some pics of the inards hehe

g~

[bigmoe]

Just an idea. But why not just built a small separate housing for the ipac, then run the cables from that to each control panel, or the the first one, then from there to the second? This may not cut down the the length, but might make it a  bit easier overall.

I was thinking about this just today (wire length). So I decided to see what would happen. I took about 20 feet of wire and connected it to my ipac, and then to a button. I used notpad to test it out and it worked quite well. I didn't see any signal loss at all. But that was just 20' not 50'. I would think that the signal would still make it, but it would be off by a few milliseconds and maybe a second. Either way, I would try it with a single button and see what happens.

I am in the process of building something very similar to what's described here (and also somewhat similar to what Tiger-Heli describes on his excellent website).

I *do* have an IPAC in a separate box connected via cables to a control box that sits in the lap.  Right now I am only running about 6 feet, but intend the total cable length to eventually be 16 feet or so.

I am using dsub (serial) connectors and bundled cabling (using standard serial cables).  At first, I was running into ghost keyboard presses; after emailing Andy (who was very helpful as is typical), experimenting with this, and researching on the Internet, we concluded (or I, which Andy confirmed as plausible, if not likely) I was experiencing a high degree of RFI.

The RFI could be due to my location (near several radio towers) or also due to the length of bundled cables.  I thought since I was using shielded cabling, I was ok.

It turns out that the problem was solved when I realized I wasn't *grounding* the shielded cable properly.  Shielded cable, if you cut it in half, has the signal wires encased in foil with an uninsulated wire that runs the length.  This uninsulated wire is meant for grounding the shielding.  It is connected over multiple cables via the metal connection housing of the cable ends (the part that surrounds the pins).

If you are using cable cut in half, be sure to ground this wire at one end.  (Andy confirmed for me that it is ok to connect this to the IPAC ground.)  If you are using full cables with, say, dsub female connectors, be sure to connect the metal housing of the connector to ground...you may have to solder a wire to it for this.  (Some of the old switchboxes, if you take them apart, have a wire soldered like this.)


Sorry to be so longwinded...but save yourself some pain!

b

[Lilwolf]

you might also look into hacking two gamepads instead.

Not as nice but cheaper, especially for a dual stick setup where the best answer is two encoders.

[OneNutt]

I like the suggestion of an external Ipac box, I am going to consider that one. It will take an extra cat5 since the player 1 box has more control, but that's not a big deal. That might get me to keep my length to around 20 feet total so it might help any interference issues too....

[bigmoe]

I like the suggestion of an external Ipac box, I am going to consider that one. It will take an extra cat5 since the player 1 box has more control, but that's not a big deal. That might get me to keep my length to around 20 feet total so it might help any interference issues too....

It works pretty neat, but you should know that I (and I imagine others, if some of the issues on other threads are due to the same thing) started experiencing interference issues at 6 feet.  (Don't want to be a party pooper, just be aware .)

I'm using 9-conductor, and some other folks were using 25 conductor.  I don't remember how many wires Cat-5 has, but maybe it will be few enough that you won't have to worry about it at all, I dunno.  I know just about enough about wiring to frustrate myself...

I toyed with the idea of having the IPAC in the P1 CP and having P2+ CPs be vanillas that hooked into the P1 CP, but with swappable panels and the mobile nature of the CP decided I didn't want to risk the IPAC et al.  Plus, this will make it easier for console hacks, too.

Lilwolf's idea is a good one, too, if you're good with a soldering iron...comes preshielded.  The big downside for me was the lack of administrative functions the IPAC gives you.  It's neat hook up the laptop to the ole TV, fire it up, and pretty much do everything else without having to even lean out of the chair (except to get the beer).

b

[Tiger-Heli]

It works pretty neat, but you should know that I (and I imagine others, if some of the issues on other threads are due to the same thing) started experiencing interference issues at 6 feet.  (Don't want to be a party pooper, just be aware .)

Did the problems go away when you re-connected the shield ground as you mentioned above?  Or did you still have problems after this?

Great suggestion on the shield ground, thanks!  (And thanks for the compliments on the website).

[bigmoe]

Did the problems go away when you re-connected the shield ground as you mentioned above?  Or did you still have problems after this?

Yeah, I wasn't too clear, sorry.  After connecting the shield ground, everything was (is) peachy.  (I never connected it initially because I didn't know what it was.)

My plan is to have a laptop box with swappable panels; the panels will connect to the wiring in the laptop box over 2-3 db9s (also facilitates modular, if I ever decided to go that route).  The laptop box will connect with the IPAC center over db25s.

I'm still prototyping, so I haven't gotten any farther than the db9's; no db25s yet.  But considering my night-and-day experience with connecting the shielding ground on the db9s, I'm not expecting any problems.  I should have some more permanent boxes built (I'm using cardboard now) and the db25s up and running in the next couple of weeks.

One of the differences here is that I have the db9s cut in half, so I have easy access to the shielding ground wire.  For the db25s, which I am using as extensions, I may have to solder a wire to the the metal db25 connector housing on the IPAC side, and run that to ground.  Should be an easy connection, but I've never soldered before.  Of course, it could be that you could just run a wire from ground to the housing and electrical tape it there, I dunno.  (Yes, I know it's an unadvisable hack, but for the soldering-challenged....whatever works.)

Great suggestion on the shield ground, thanks!

Prolly will be my biggest contribution to the hobby  .

(And thanks for the compliments on the website).

Well-deserved.  I'm always amazed and grateful for the amount of knowledge around here (and associated websites) and everyone's willingness to share it and help out.  I know that takes time, work, and probably money.  But I think this little community, occasional conflicts notwithstanding (and as happen in any gathering of people) is an example of some of the best the Internet has to offer.

b

[Tiger-Heli]

Yeah, I wasn't too clear, sorry.  After connecting the shield ground, everything was (is) peachy.  (I never connected it initially because I didn't know what it was.)

Ah, cool -

My plan is to have a laptop box with swappable panels; the panels will connect to the wiring in the laptop box over 2-3 db9s (also facilitates modular, if I ever decided to go that route).  The laptop box will connect with the IPAC center over db25s.

You probably read this in my FAQ's, and it's your controller, but I decided on multiple laptop (well desktop) boxes rather than swappable panels on one laptop box.

The advantages - one DB25 cable to plug in per controller, and the controls can sit on the ground when not in use without damaging the wiring.  Also, all I have to do is unplug the DB25 for the Joystick Panel and plug in the DB25 for the TriggerStick panel - no taking the CP top off, conecting several DB9's and connecting the top panel back to the base.

Also, if you have multiple DB25's on the I-PAC, you could use the TriggerStick panel together with the Joystick panel, which you can't do if they're just CP tops.

IMHO, the extra cost of the wood for the bases will be made up by not having to buy new DB9 cables (unless you have a ready source of these).

For the db25s, which I am using as extensions, I may have to solder a wire to the the metal db25 connector housing on the IPAC side, and run that to ground. . . but for the soldering-challenged....whatever works.)

I'm soldering challenged too.  Most DB25's had a #4-40 screw on either side of the connector to keep the connectors screwed together.  (Sometimes a #4-40 screw with a threaded barrel on the end.)  Couldn't you just unscrew this and put a small ring crimp terminal on the wire, or just wrap the wire around the screw and tighten it back down to electrically ground the wire to the housing?

But I think this little community, occasional conflicts notwithstanding (and as happen in any gathering of people) is an example of some of the best the Internet has to offer.

Agreed, I'm amazed and proud how usually the simplest to the most difficult question can be asked on here and get a willing and accurate answer.  I've been on a lot of other message boards that weren't this way.  (www.mame.net - Serious, for example).