My new Control Panel + thoughts

[Inaba]

Well... after futzing with designs and stuff, they just didn't give me what I wanted to know in terms of usability.

So I went ahead and built a CP based off the Ultimate Arcade II designs.  This is actually my second CP, the first one is still half-finished.

I've come to the conclusion that many others have finally come to... there's just not a way to design a panel that's a one stop shop.  It looks like you need a bare minimum of 2 panels, preferrably 3 to get everything you want out of a panel without it being too crowded.

The panel here that I finished isn't too crowded, really, but it is lacking a few controls that I'd like.  Namely dual spinners, dual trackballs and a Tron style trigger stick.  Currently it has:

1 - 4 player start on top. 1 - 4 player coin buttons on the bottom.  3" Happ Trackball. Oscar Push/Pull spinner, 2 Happ Perfect 360 joysticks, 1 Happ topfire joystick and 1 Ultimate joystick + 48 buttons.

I'm probably going to end up selling this one once I get a new one built with a pared down version of what I want.  

I'm thinking 1 panel with a basic 4 player + buttons layout and 1 panel with dual trackballs & spinners with tron joysticks.  

I'd like to hear others thoughts on the current panel (and how it can be improved) and thoughts on how to design the most efficent set of panels to be compatible with the most amount of games.

http://cohort.cc/uaiicp/    is the URL for my current panel.

[tonyarcade]

I agree with you so much on the difficulty of making an all-in-one CP.

One that I recently and geeked about is on the Mamey Awards site as best CP. (do a google or Alltheweb search for Mameys)

It's a two tiered layout.
Bottom level is multiplayer...
Really different


-Tony

[SNAAAKE]

Looking good !  
Mine looks exactly like this as well(well,the shape).
Here are some suggestions.

get some wood filler.
Fill the tiny gaps on the sides,give a day so the filler is all dry then sand the sides,prime and paint all black.

THEN its 100% complete..VERY nice job on the panel.  
(I know its not easy with all the angles)  

[SirPoonga]

I agree with you so much on the difficulty of making an all-in-one CP.

One that I recently and geeked about is on the Mamey Awards site as best CP. (do a google or Alltheweb search for Mameys)

It's a two tiered layout.
Bottom level is multiplayer...
Really different


-Tony

http://www.mameworld.net/massive/Awards/awards.html

I don't like the Supercade layout.  Good idea, poor execution.  Basically the trackball is in a horrible spot.  Other than that it isn't that bad.

[Inaba]

I'm kind of up in the air on the whole black thing right now.  Since this was essentially a test CP to get my feet wet, as it were... I tried out that fake granite stuff... it actually looks pretty cool close up.  

You're right about the gaps.  I have plans to redo the base anyway to accomodate my Happ Rotary sticks.  I hadn't realized exactly how deep those suckers were, and they won't fit on that base... so I need to redo the bottom panels with about 3" more depth, then I'll probably replace the player 3 and 4 sticks with rotary sticks.  

I'll need a dedicated Discs of Tron panel, though, if I get rid of the fire... but without a 2nd button on the top fire, it's kind of "less than authentic" in terms of using your block in DoT (DoT is one of my favorite games).  

So right now, my current thinking is to increase the depths of this panel for the rotary sticks and make another panel for DoT and spinner/track ball games.  Although, I'm not sure how happy I really am with the Oscar Push/Pull spinner at this point.  It's got a really bad throw range in my opinion.  Cutting off a bit of the shaft and adjusting the leaf switches should help with that quite a bit... but I couldn't get the copper bearing to work right in the 3/8" hole, so it's just bare right now... cosmetically it's unnoticable, but but the bearing installed, the shaft sticks something fierce.

I'm not overly fond of the lightness of the Happ 3".  I was expecting a heavier ball... I'm thinking something like a Missle Command ball is what I want.  I couldn't get Marble Madness to behave right with the 3" Happ.  Does anyone have any reccomendations for games like Marble Madness and trackball types?

One thing I forgot to mention... I can't believe how much wire I ended up using.  I got 150' of wire, figuring I'd have some left over... I have about 10 feet left over.  There's nearly 140' of wiring in that after all is said and done.  Sheesh.

[TalkingOctopus]

A few things that could help the happ 3":

1.  Make sure you don't have it screwed into the mounting plate too tight.

2.  It's "strange behavior" can most likely be attributed to window's mouse settings.  Make sure you have the following windows settings:

-Pointer Speed down.
-Acceleration turned down.
-Sample rate set at 200.
-Uncheck Fast Initialization

These settings are in:
WINXP > Control Panel > Mouse and WINXP > Control Panel > Mouse > Hardware > Properties.

Play around with them, and you should be able to get better experience.

[DarkKobold]

TalkingOctopus:
 Where are you finding these menus? The only one I see is the pointer speed, and a box that says enhance pointer precision.

[Inaba]

Thank you for the tips on the mouse ... but I don't think that's the problem.  It's the mass of the trackball that's the issue, I believe.  If I recall properly, a Marble Madness trackball was heavy... not quite as heavy as a Missle Command trackball, but close.  Thus, they would carry some serious inertia when spinning... these Happ ones are light, very little mass and consequently don't carry very much inertia, even when you really wing them... so they stop moving pretty quick due to the friction of the rollers.

I bought the 3" hoping it would be sufficiently heavy, but alas  

I'm going to futz with it more and try out your suggestions on the mouse behavior and see if I can't lessen the frustration... but it makes it really hard to get good slams and stuff in MM due to the fact that you can't get your marble moving fast/hard enough to knock the steel ball around or jump the ramps very easily.  It's also very hard to control the marble sometimes, due to the fact that the trackball is so light, you accidentally tap the ball and the marble moves where you didn't want it to... but perhaps your suggestions will clear that problem up.

Was working on my 1st cab tonight... going to point it tomorrow, and put the T-Molding on... then it's on to cutting the plexi and marquee.  After that, should be almost done.  Will be posting pics of that as well.  

Oddly enough, though, the cab isn't the UAII cab... so I'm going to have a cab w/ no controller and a controller w/ no cab.  /sigh

[paigeoliver]

Where is the 4-way stick? Joy 4-way is the second most common type of joystick in Mame. Much more common than 4 player games, trackball ones, spinner ones, or top fire ones.

[Hoagie_one]

What gauge wire did you use?

[Inaba]

Ran outta room for the 4 way stick.  I've been thinking of adding in place of the middle buttons instead of having those... as I don't think they'll be used.  The buttons left of the trackball are the same wiring, and I seem to be using those mostly...  then I don't foresee a need for the middle ones for the spinner... so 4 way stick is probably what's gonna end up there.

As for the wiring, I used 18 gauge lamp wire.  Cheap and just the right size for most applications.

[Chris]

Thank you for the tips on the mouse ... but I don't think that's the problem.  It's the mass of the trackball that's the issue, I believe.  If I recall properly, a Marble Madness trackball was heavy... not quite as heavy as a Missle Command trackball, but close.  Thus, they would carry some serious inertia when spinning... these Happ ones are light, very little mass and consequently don't carry very much inertia, even when you really wing them... so they stop moving pretty quick due to the friction of the rollers.

Do you have a transaprent ball?  The transparent balls aren't as heavy as the regular balls...

[Inaba]

Nope, it's just a regular white ball... in fact, it's a Golden Tee 3" trackball.  I thought that'd be heavier, due to the abuse that the Golden Tee cabs take.  

[Chris]

Mine feels heavy to me, but I've been using PC trackball up until now. The games you mentioned took, I believe, a 4.5" ball.  These used candlepin bowling balls, so they had heft.  Happ has them, but the housing is $150 and the ball another $50.


--Chris

[Inaba]

Ahh!  That is some good information.  I'll check out Happ and look into getting one or two of those for my next panel.  Would be really sweet to wing the ball and have it fight me back!  

[Chris]

For the balls, Happ just has red, blue and green translucent balls.  You could, however, go to http://www.slavin4u.com/balls_candle.html and use a candlepin ball...

Just be sure you use a candlepin ball (4.5") and not a duckpin ball (4.75")!

These (and regular solid colors) are $30...


These are $55...


These "Glo balls" are $32...


I'm fond of the "Starline" balls at $30...

[rampy]

Just a quick random thought:

Octapus feller had some good points re: the software end of things.

You had stated that the ball is NOT continuing to roll (or roll that long) before stopping after giving it a good roll.  Assuming you bought new, it may just be that you have not broken in the bearings/trackball enough yet, or your bearings may need to be lubed (sometimes the default/factory grease in the bearings harden up while the trackball is sitting on the shelf before you order it)

I realize this will do nothing to help with the feel/heft of the ball but... i'd start looking there.

Bob roberts has an excellent bearing oiling/breakin tip on his site.

Also, I believe someone found a company that made juggling balls that were 3" diameter and if I'm not mistaken had more heft.  There was some discussion at one point of having some place mill a stainless steel/aluminum ball, but I believe the cost was prohibitive.

I think the issue is that it's just not broken in.  I kinda think a 4.5" tball is a bit overkill unless you were in love with a certain game that "had" to have it (like that guy who was restoring his atari football)

*shrug* If all else fails maybe a hyper bowling "trackball" will have enough "heft" for you =P

If you want to clean up the edges where the t-molding meets the laminate you can use black latex/water based caulking (i've been meaning to document/show this -- someday)

Rampy

PS giant balls thread

PSS ok loggin off now  -- still on my LOA =)

[Inaba]

You had stated that the ball is NOT continuing to roll (or roll that long) before stopping after giving it a good roll.  Assuming you bought new, it may just be that you have not broken in the bearings/trackball enough yet, or your bearings may need to be lubed (sometimes the default/factory grease in the bearings harden up while the trackball is sitting on the shelf before you order it)

I'm probably overly picky when I speak of the ball not rolling enough.  It's got a bit of roll on it, I played Golden Tee for a couple holes last night and it performed adequately as far as that went.  The heft/roll I'm looking for is like that of Missle Command, was that a 4 1/2" ball or smaller?  I always got the feeling you could take a chisle to the Missle command balls and work your way through it, and it'd still be a rolling dynamo.  Perhaps it's just my nostalgia though

Can anyone confirm what type/size of the balls on Marble Madness?

I'm wondering that if perhaps it's just me... but the Happ 3" (and I assume the other Happs) are just not as "sound" as the older trackballs?  I was suprised to receive what I did from Happ... the housing and ball were much lighter than I expected and the thing is a rattle trap.  I realize that's probably the state of things now adays -- am I wrong to expect a solid trackball, where the ball has little if any play on the Z axis in the housing?  Basically, for $100, I was expecting a giant polyurethane or similar ballbearing.  Those candlepin balls look like what I was expecting, though... so I need to consider about $200 per Trackball for what I want?  Can you get the same heft/weight in a 3" trackball as the 4 1/2" candlepins?

I'll see how the breakin goes.  I'll run some Golden Tee through it tonight for 36 holes or something  Take the old ball out to the driving range, as it were... that should give it a work out!

If you want to clean up the edges where the t-molding meets the laminate you can use black latex/water based caulking (i've been meaning to document/show this -- someday)

After reviewing those pictures, I hadn't even noticed the problem with the T-Molding until then.  I'm not sure why it shows up so glaringly obvious on the pics, but IRL the molding appears nearly perfect (except for several places that I tapped it in a bit too far... and of course my lack of sanding the sides on this particular CP) -- but I would still be interested in your tips, seeing as I'm going to be T-Molding my almost finished Cab, and it's going to need some serious help -- I'd never used a router before when I routed out the slot in the cab and it's all FUBAR, not to mention I was using a 1/8" slot (I believe) .... it was one size too large, I realized, after I had finished the cab.  Got me a hot glue gun to take care of that...  But after the fact, I decided to laminate the sides of the cab, instead of paint, so now I'm going to have about 1/8" underlap on the T-Molding, being as the panel sides are 3/4" and my T-Molding is 3/4"... /sigh

[rampy]

After reviewing those pictures, I hadn't even noticed the problem with the T-Molding until then.  I'm not sure why it shows up so glaringly obvious on the pics, but IRL the molding appears nearly perfect (except for several places that I tapped it in a bit too far... and of course my lack of sanding the sides on this particular CP) -- but I would still be interested in your tips, seeing as I'm going to be T-Molding my almost finished Cab, and it's going to need some serious help -- I'd never used a router before when I routed out the slot in the cab and it's all FUBAR, not to mention I was using a 1/8" slot (I believe) .... it was one size too large, I realized, after I had finished the cab.  Got me a hot glue gun to take care of that...  But after the fact, I decided to laminate the sides of the cab, instead of paint, so now I'm going to have about 1/8" underlap on the T-Molding, being as the panel sides are 3/4" and my T-Molding is 3/4"... /sigh

I didn't really notice, but thought there was something based upon what Snaaake was saying, but I may have misunderstood and assumed that's what he was talking about.

I believe the standard slot for most t-molding is 1/16" slots - but the hot glue trick is good for worn out or 1/8" slots (I had to do that for my ancient taito conversion)

you can get the bit really cheap (especially if you already have the arbor assembly)

here at mlcs

*Shrug*

Rampy

[u_rebelscum]

Note: I tried posting last night, but net connection (DSL even) crashed, so some of this is a rehash of other's posts.

Thank you for the tips on the mouse ... but I don't think that's the problem.  It's the mass of the trackball that's the issue, I believe.  If I recall properly, a Marble Madness trackball was heavy... not quite as heavy as a Missle Command trackball, but close.  Thus, they would carry some serious inertia when spinning... these Happ ones are light, very little mass and consequently don't carry very much inertia, even when you really wing them... so they stop moving pretty quick due to the friction of the rollers.

I bought the 3" hoping it would be sufficiently heavy, but alas  

Hmm, I have happs, betson, and wico TB, and I find the happs spins the longest by far.  The happs ball feels a little lighter than the betson or wico ones, but that might be because of happs long spin time.  You do have to break them in a little; all my TBs spin times have increased after use.  BobRoberts talks about breaking in bearings the quick way, but I just pushed firmly (but not too hard) straight down on the ball with the palm of my hand, rolled the ball in a circular motion for ~30 sec, let the ball spin free, and repeated 3-5 times.

One thing though, the happs ball, even though it's the longest spin, is the loudest spin, too.  It is slightly quiter if I use my betson 1/8" spacer instead of the happs spacer, but not by much.  I has gotten quiter with use.

Something I can't be sure from the pics, but it looks like you installed 3" golden tee (aka high lip) TB without the 1/8" black spacer, and the lip/ring around the ball is sticking above the plate.  I find that very hard to use; I doubt this position is hurting the spin time, but it might be making it harder for you to roll the ball.  It also might be making it louder.

A theorey I have but never proved to my satisfaction is that happ/Atari TBs do better on a medium slant than a flat surface due to the locations of the rollers.  

Which brings up another thing: some bearings are better than others, and I heard of at least one person who switched bearings (the idle with either X or Y rollers, IIRC) and got a noticable improvement.

I'm going to futz with it more and try out your suggestions on the mouse behavior and see if I can't lessen the frustration... but it makes it really hard to get good slams and stuff in MM due to the fact that you can't get your marble moving fast/hard enough to knock the steel ball around or jump the ramps very easily.

I suggest increasing the sensitivity (in mame's "analog controls" menu UI [tab]) by about double mame's default, or to 100%, and adjusting from there.  Mame's default is based on PC mice, and the arcade TBs are "slower" than PC mice.

It's also very hard to control the marble sometimes, due to the fact that the trackball is so light, you accidentally tap the ball and the marble moves where you didn't want it to... but perhaps your suggestions will clear that problem up.

Try decreasing the "joy/key speed" to 1 (and adjusting up from there).