Soft15kHz/ArcadeVGA over Component

[metahacker]

So, this product exists to do color-space conversion from a RGB (VGA) signal to YUV/YPrPb (component).
http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

And there are plenty of CRT based TVs in various sizes with component input available....

as well as Soft15KHz and ArcadeVGA.


Has anyone combined these 3 things together?

I emailed Crescendo, and here's what they say:

All of the Crescendo Systems RGB to Component transcoders will support 15KHz operation, that is the TC1500 and TC1600 if you need full shift control.

Both of them are actually completely resolution and frequency independent, just hook them up and generate 15KHz component. If it works or not depends on the display, it has to support that resolution.

Kim

So, this would imply to me that US cab builders now have a solution not dissimilar to the Euro guys using SCART... i.e. hacking regular TVs to get them to show native arcade modes. 

Anyone try this ?

[solid12345]

I was actually thinking of something like this the other day too, can anyone comment on the possibility?

[Jack Burton]

  I have thought of this before too, and that email sounds very promising. 

I know for a fact that the JROK converter and others like it can convert a 240p RGB from an arcade pcb image to component video without introducing input lag or upscaling, so it should also work for a 240p RGB signal from a computer.  There's no difference in the signals.   

I'm kind of surprised that no one's tried it yet to be honest.  I've seen arcade games look better than I've ever seen them on any arcade monitor on high end PC monitors and professional video monitors running at native resolutions. 

I wonder what games would look like on a Sony 36" KV series or other similar last generation 4:3 CRT? 

The flatness of the screen and the fineness of the dot pitch of the image may be a bit off-putting to some, especially for classics.  But for the newer generations of arcade games, say about from 1984 onwards I'm sure everything will look great. 

[metahacker]

wow

the JROK looks cool for $75

so this is for running regular arcade boards thru component? for those who like to play i.e. jamma boards on their tv?

sounds like a test is in order .. with the crescendo unit, a nice CRT, and some 15kHz MAME.

it would be wonderful if the huge army of high end CRTs (Sony WEGA, etc.) going for $75 on craigslist could be harvested to make perfect arcade monitors....

[Jack Burton]

Yes, the JROK is the central component in a Supergun, a device to enable playing arcade pcbs on a television.  People often build rigs with power supplies and JAMMA harnesses connected to custom controllers in order to make a very console like experience for arcade games.

I think one of the more popular ones was the MAS systems SuperNOVA system:

http://www.massystems.com/SuperNOVA.html

I know that people have flashed the firmware on their ATI graphics cards in order to achieve AVGA performance.  Could the same firmware be hacked to do 240p over component?  I would buy one in a heartbeat. 

[Ummon]

The flatness of the screen and the fineness of the dot pitch of the image may be a bit off-putting to some, especially for classics.  But for the newer generations of arcade games, say about from 1984 onwards I'm sure everything will look great. 

I don't like any raster-based arcade game on a monitor with such a fine dot pitch. Even using old mame effects, which in general pretty accurately mimic the same line display as what I see on my 27" monitors, it's a little too sharp.

[metahacker]

I don't like any raster-based arcade game on a monitor with such a fine dot pitch. Even using old mame effects, which in general pretty accurately mimic the same line display as what I see on my 27" monitors, it's a little too sharp.

http://digilander.libero.it/venturi1975/

this guy has a nice set of comparison pics


i would imagine that the 15khz over component to a regular "TV" would produce results similar to his SCART pics....

which is definitely a huge improvement over a TV with S-Video or a regular computer monitor... but not 100% "authentic"

seems like a good solution though... a nice compromise.  it would be even more compelling if the converter box could be built easily DIY or was like $50.  i wish someone would try this setup and report back results =) particularly with something high-end like a Sony WEGA that can take a 1080i signal.

[solid12345]

Lovely pics, its just amazing how the same source can look different on many setups.  I admit I am even partial to the smeary look of s-video.

[Jack Burton]

Mucho respect to the guy that made that page.  Probably the most comprehensive source of information on the subject available.  It would help to be broken down into multiple pages.  It does work amazingly well with google translate though.

Also, those are the best comparison pictures I've seen.  Make sure to click them to view in full size to see the astonishing difference in quality.  He did cheat a bit though by using screen captures instead of photographs for the PC screenshots.  A PC monitor would fair much better in that manner I think.

What's interesting to me there though not the difference between S-video and RGB, which is not really that much, but the difference between native resolution and scaling. 

In those pictures I'm guessing that he is using the default scaling and it's ridiculous how much better the native resolution looks on a the same display technology.  I question the sanity of anyone who says that a TV running S-video is a good approximation of an arcade monitor.

But the thing I am most fascinated by is the difference between the Scart RGB image and the arcade monitor image.  I believe the Scart image is better.  The colors, contrast, and focus are all better.  This is likely due to the age and design of the arcade monitor.  There are other factors at work too, but I don't think I'll get into them in this thread.

[solid12345]

I think what I draw from this is what defines authentic. I mean a CRT monitor from 1984 is going to look different than a monitor built in the 1990s, the only true "authentic" monitor is the one used in the original cab for a particular game to begin with.

Would I say S-video captures the look of an arcade monitor? No. But I think it does have a unique look to it, the colors are definitely more bled together and splotchy than RGB but is that necessarily bad, it makes it look more cartoony which is a unique look, not better or worse. Personally I don't like the scratched over look the SCART cable has, sure it is nice and sharp but it is almost TOO sharp like someone carved the pixels out of colored wood or something. I prefer the arcade monitor to that with the softer edges and scanlines.

Really though what it comes down to is, put in your cab what YOU want, not what someone else "thinks" you should have in it. Personally I wanted a legit arcade monitor but my friends called me crazy wondering why I didn't put an LCD in there and instead this big hulking CRT, to the average person unless you show them both side-by-side they won't know the difference.

[Ummon]

Having 27" monitors (25s are the same, essentially, tube-wise), I prefer the Hantarex. Note the TV is 14", which is why it looks more like a 19" arcade monitor - scanlines obvious, but overall a little grainy due to the phosphor elements. I'm wondering how old that tube is, too. Regardless, if you used a 25/27" TV and SCART, I bet it'd look much closer to the Hantarex.

Also, those 'PC' monitor shots are widescreen.

[Epyx]

I prefer the Hantarex

Agreed, although I also agree that this is likely due to the size of the SCART tv...I really prefer the colour contrast on the Hantarex...looking even at the far right cliff face screens...the Hantarex shows imo a better range of browns...they don't appear as washed out.  Even the foliage of the trees appear richer on the Hantarex.

Either way what a great website...I wish that was translated in English...that would be a great resource to add to the wiki/sticky.

[tisurame]

So, this product exists to do color-space conversion from a RGB (VGA) signal to YUV/YPrPb (component).
http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

And there are plenty of CRT based TVs in various sizes with component input available....

as well as Soft15KHz and ArcadeVGA.


Has anyone combined these 3 things together?

I emailed Crescendo, and here's what they say:

All of the Crescendo Systems RGB to Component transcoders will support 15KHz operation, that is the TC1500 and TC1600 if you need full shift control.

Both of them are actually completely resolution and frequency independent, just hook them up and generate 15KHz component. If it works or not depends on the display, it has to support that resolution.

Kim

So, this would imply to me that US cab builders now have a solution not dissimilar to the Euro guys using SCART... i.e. hacking regular TVs to get them to show native arcade modes. 

Anyone try this ?

I did. Works great with Soft15khz or ArcadeVGA. It's a perfect solution. Very recommended.

[commander]

Hey tisurame which Crescendo model did u buy and hows the picture quality? does it support the native lowres arcade timing ? how well does it sync specially with the games like mortal kombat that support 53hz and other non 60hz games ? does it have any lag?.

[Jack Burton]

Hey tisurame which Crescendo model did u buy and hows the picture quality? does it support the native lowres arcade timing ? how well does it sync specially with the games like mortal kombat that support 53hz and other non 60hz games ? does it have any lag?.

x2

All questions this forum is in suspense to have answered!

[Malenko]

you have to understand the code the artists wanted. The PC picture is superior in every way and looks the best when displayed on an LCD. Arcade games only looked the way they did because of the crappy technology that was around back then. What you see with the PC displayed on an LCD is what the original programmers really wanted.

[solid12345]

you have to understand the code the artists wanted. The PC picture is superior in every way and looks the best when displayed on an LCD. Arcade games only looked the way they did because of the crappy technology that was around back then. What you see with the PC displayed on an LCD is what the original programmers really wanted.

Wasn't there a month long flame war about this?

Anyway I doubt this is what the programmers intended because they knew no better, LCD's only existed as prototype technology in labs that most people never saw then. When Namco programmed a blurry-dot Pac-Man that is what they meant to do because it looked that way on the screen they were working on

[Malenko]

Anyway I doubt this is what the programmers intended because they knew no better, LCD's only existed as prototype technology in labs that most people never saw then. When Namco programmed a blurry-dot Pac-Man that is what they meant to do because it looked that way on the screen they were working on

THE CODE MAN! THE CODE! you must stay true to it and LCDs are the ONLY WAY!

[Ummon]

you have to understand the code the artists wanted. The PC picture is superior in every way and looks the best when displayed on an LCD. Arcade games only looked the way they did because of the crappy technology that was around back then. What you see with the PC displayed on an LCD is what the original programmers really wanted.

Wasn't there a month long flame war about this?

Anyway I doubt this is what the programmers intended because they knew no better, LCD's only existed as prototype technology in labs that most people never saw then. When Namco programmed a blurry-dot Pac-Man that is what they meant to do because it looked that way on the screen they were working on

Hahhaahahh....no. Malenko just ---smurfin--- blind-sided with something a now deceased (in the forum sense) member was adamant about.

[Malenko]

thanks for ruining the joke.

[tisurame]

Hey tisurame which Crescendo model did u buy and hows the picture quality? does it support the native lowres arcade timing ? how well does it sync specially with the games like mortal kombat that support 53hz and other non 60hz games ? does it have any lag?.

First of all, I bought it many years ago. So, I think they are not selling the exact model that I have, but this new model called "TC1500" looks to have the same function.

Anyway, just ask him. The model I have is called TC2000.




The picture quality is great. Converting RGB/VGA to YPrPb (unlike svideo) is lossless. It will support any resolution, since the device only converts your VGA signal to component (and nothing else). You still need to use ArcadeVGA or Soft15khz to get native lowres, of course.

Just buy a good CRT TV with component input, use this transcoder and forget about arcade monitors. I'm sure you will get the best picture using this method.

[Jack Burton]

I'm in love with the concept of this.  I want to see how games look on my big Toshiba TV over component.

My Mitsubishi monitor already looks really really good, but is still slightly inferior to my TV.

I also wonder what games would look like on the Sony KV series TV's like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-KV-32HS420-32-Inch-Trinitron-HD-Ready/dp/B0002HVIBG

Newer fighting games like SFIII Third Strike should look amazing.  

[ahofle]

How is this device any different/better than using the component output available on ATI/NVidia video adapters?

[tisurame]

How is this device any different/better than using the component output available on ATI/NVidia video adapters?

Because the component output available on ATI/NVidia video adapters always converts the signal to a specific resolution (480p, 720p or 1080p). So, there isnt any low resolution available.

[Jack Burton]

How is this device any different/better than using the component output available on ATI/NVidia video adapters?

To add to Tisurame's explanation.

Arcade games run in resolutions that are very low.  Usually they have between 224 and 334 lines.

TV's usually run in 480i.  That is 480 lines of resolution.  

The TV out on most video cards defaults to this setting.  If you choose any other resolution in windows it will simply scale back to 480i before being sent to the display source.  

Using this device we can bypass this and send the correct arcade resolutions to the TV.  

By doing this we can get an image on a TV that is 99% identical to an arcade monitor. Compared to the output of the TV out on a video card the result will be sharper, brighter, and more colorful.  

I'm looking for one of these converters, but $140 is a little steep.  Maybe I can get one used from a good AV forum where there will be guys with these things just laying around.  Anybody got a good link?

[Ummon]

Try here. Scroll down a bit.

http://www.arcademvs.com/ARCADE_ACESSERIOR.htm

[Jack Burton]

I see this:

"Arcade RGB CGA to TV and Video Composite converter(NEW)

IT IS A RGB, CGA to TV Set and S-Video converter.It can Allows displaying Simultaneous RGB,CGA output signal to your TV.Plug and play no software required

*PURE HARDWARE DESIGN,JUST PLUG AND PLAY *SUPPORT RGB SIGNAL CONVERTING TO VIDEO SIGNAL AND S-VIDEO SIGNAL *SWITCHHABLE PAL/NTSC VIDEO SYSTEM*ADJUSTABLE 3 COLOR (RGB)BRIGHTNESS *POWER INPUT: DC+8-5V *CONSUMPTION:1.5W MAX"

Does this support component out?  I don't think it does.

[commander]

I have looked around for some cheaper transcoders and found a couple that have been used in superguns to output to component.

Jrok transcoder http://jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

neobitz transcoder http://www.neobitz.com/

CVS287 transcoder  http://cgi.ebay.com/SCART-RGB-to-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Transcoder_W0QQitemZ220519606779QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3357fe29fb

All have worked well with superguns so should probably work with pc aswell.
The last transcoder seems the cheapest but has also been reported to a have a little red push.

[DJ_Izumi]

The picture quality is great. Converting RGB/VGA to YPrPb (unlike svideo) is lossless.

It's not lossless.  It loses less, but it's not lossless.  YPrPb is in itself, a compressed color space and thus some information is lost as it is converted from RGB to YPrPb.  However it is loss that our puny human brains are unlikely to notice or notice much. It however loses a lot less color data than S-video as it effectively has double the bandwidth.

[MonMotha]

YPbPr is NOT compressed.  YCbCr (the digital representation of YPbPr) is often compressed 4:2:2. That is, the chroma is downsampled 2:1 in the horizontal direction, but it does NOT have to be.  There exist entirely analog solutions that lose NOTHING aside from introducing a little noise.  Now, your TV probably samples it digitally at 4:2:2, but that's outside the control of the conversion.  Digital conversion solutions can also use a 4:4:4 encoding of YCbCr before the DAC resulting in the only loss being round-off error in the conversion matrix, but I'm guessing most don't do this and instead use 4:2:2.

S-Video at 480i actually can be pretty darned close to YPbPr.  The chroma info does have less bandwidth - YPbPr component @ 480i conventionally has 6MHz of bandwidth while there's only about 3.5MHz on S-Video - but again see the 4:2:2 sampling that your TV likely does on YPbPr component inputs, effectively halving the horizontal resolution (and therefore, as an approximation, bandwidth).  The reason you only need two wires instead of 3 is that S-Video uses QAM to send two independent signals on a single carrier, but this is not a lossy operation if done correctly.  All it does is enforce a bandwidth limit on the channel due to the carrier frequency selection.  The issue with S-Video is that many TVs have absolutely terrible demodulators, and many actually effectively drop s-video down to composite which introduces cross luma-chroma artifacts; the format is fine and can actually support usable (though non-standard) 480p.  Using a component format (YPbPr or RGB) bypasses the modulation entirely and removes the TV's demodulator from the equation.

I've had very good results turning standard res RGB into either s-video or YPbPr component for TV viewing.  Both give very good picture on a decent TV, and s-video is more readily available on older sets being repurposed as well as video capture devices (often what I'm doing).

As for what the s-video outputs on PC cards do, they usually scale whatever you feed it to 640x480p then interlace it out to 480i.  This introduces a bunch of scaling artifacts that you probably don't want, and the behavior is usually impossible to disable.  Many TV outputs on PC cards actually don't support being fed a TV compatible signal at all!  Outputting TV compatible timings via RGB and then converting outboard eliminates this problem, which is why it looks so much better for any application, and, yes, it does get you native video on emulated arcade games.  However, most TVs don't have easily adjustable geometry, so overscan can become an issue to watch out for.

[commander]

This was a great explanation MonMotha it really cleared the difference between YPbPr and S-video in different circumstances.
I would really like to know whats the difference between PC RGB and Arcade pcb RGB and specifically would an RGB to Component transcoder built specifically for PC or Arcade work with both

[MonMotha]

Aside from timing differences (scanrates/resolution) which just need to be TV compatible (so standard res arcade games only), the only difference between the RGB signals output by a PC and those output by an arcade board are the signal levels (voltages) and the fact that arcade boards generally output negative composite sync whereas PCs generally output positive separate sync.

The signal levels from an arcade board are higher but can be brought back down to the standard 0.7Vpp that PCs use with a suitably chosen resistor placed in series on each video line.

The sync format is a little harder.  Many, many devices will accept composite sync.  Convention is to place it on the horizontal sync line of the HD15 or the horizontal sync BNC connector if that's being used.  If they want positive composite sync instead of negative, a 74xx04 inverter can be used to flip the polarity around, or even something as simple as a transistor and a resistor can work.  If the device truly needs separate sync, then you need a sync separator.  There are various ways to do this including some semi-off-the-shelf solutions.

[random92]

Yo! I'm here to resurrect this thread 

So yeah, I believe some years ago I purchased an RGB to component transcoder and it didn't work (it was designed for hdtv stuff and isn't any of the ones listed here)

Which is the best solution?? Information is slim for this, but plentiful for SCART folks. No SCART tvs in america 

Which transcoder works/is the best/cheapest?

Thanks

[rCadeGaming]

Time for another thread resurrection.  I've been working on all this stuff for a few months, so I thought I'd share some of the info I found.

-

First, I've tried a bunch of TV's.  CRT TV's are readily available in the US on Craigslist for free or very cheaply.  If you want to try a bunch of TV's out, get on Craigslist and start picking them up.  I went through about a dozen of them, some were free and the most expensive was only $50.

One that I had was the Sony Trinitron/WEGA KV32-HS420, mentioned above.  This isn't really a good choice for an arcade monitor.  It's a 16:9 CRT capable of 480p, 720p, and 1080i.  It's great for Dreamcast games in letterboxed 480p, or PS3 games with a native res of 720p like Street Fighter IV or BlazBlue, but it's not so great for 15kHz/~240p, which is what I think we're concerned with here.  It will accept low resolutions, but it look as if they've been upscaled by the TV to 480p, there's no scanlines whatsoever.  Furthermore, the TV is just too big and heavy.  It takes a minimum of two fairly strong people to attempt moving it.  If you built it into a cabinet, you'd have to build in its final location, because it would never move.  You wouldn't want to sit very close to such a big screen either, it would have be one of those showcase-style cabs with a detached pedestal control panel.

I tried various Phillips and Samsung models, but I think the best TV for arcade purposes is a Sony KV-27FS120.  This a flat 4:3 tube that's strictly 15kHz (~240p/480i), that was produced in the early 2000's.  Picture quality on the component input is outstanding, sharp but not too sharp, with great scanlines.  All of the TV's geometry and picture settings can be changed in the service menu, which can be accessed by turning the TV off and pressing Display, 5, Volume Up, Power, on the remote.  This was a very popular tv, and is now one of the most commonly available on Craigslist.

Both of the KV-27FS120's I've picked up do have the same geometry issue.  The vertical lines on the bottom third of the screen are bowed up a little bit in the center.  This can be reduced by playing with the geometry, but not eliminated.  It's not that bad, and isn't noticeable during gameplay unless you look hard for it.  This is the only downside, aside from the obvious inability to display higher resolutions.  

I think there are some 27 inch Sony CRT's that do work with 480p and maybe higher, but they most likely have the same problems with lower resolutions as the KV32-HS420.  If you want to use an NTSC TV for an arcade monitor, you basically want something that is strictly 15kHz, and has a component input.

-

For transcoders, I have both a Crescendo TC1600 and a CVS287.  The important difference between them is that the TC1600 is a VGA to component transcoder, and the CVS287 is a RGB SCART to component transcoder.  

VGA is RGBHV, it carries a red, green, and blue color signal, as well as horizontal and vertical sync.  RGB SCART is RGBS, it only carries the color signals and composite sync, which is horizontal and vertical sync combined on one wire.  This means that the CVS287 will NOT work with the VGA out from your computer unless you run the horizontal and vertical sync lines through a combining circuit first.  This is doable, but the TC1600 provides higher quality results without modification.  

Once you've got your computer outputting proper 15kHz, you can simply plug the TC1600 in between your computer's VGA output and the TV's component input and it works.  Picture quality is very good, and it offers a lot of adjustability.  The TC1600 is more expensive than the CVS287 for a reason.  

I only have the CVS287 to convert RGB SCART from my Super Nintendo, Genesis, and Saturn to component.  Kim Buemer, the creator of the TC1600, is currently helping me with a simple circuit that will allow me to use the TC1600 for these systems as well, so I won't need the CVS287.

-

For graphics cards, I'm using a GeForce 7300GS, which is a PCI Express card, with Soft15kHz and Powerstrip.  These are available on eBay dirt cheap.  You could find something similar if you need to use an AGP card, just make sure to get something that's listed as compatible with Soft15kHz:

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten

I haven't tried an ArcadeVGA, as it doesn't seem to be worth the cost.  I'm not sure if it gives you as much control as Soft15kHz and Powerstrip.  This combination gives me complete realtime control of resolutions, adjusting the actual horizontal and vertical front porch, back porch, sync width, etc, as well as creating my own resolutions.  I knew nothing about these things a few months ago, and it was not that hard to learn through experimentation.  I would recommend anyone interested in arcade video to do the same.

I'm not sure if an ArcadeVGA will allow this much control.  My understanding is that it's more user friendly but less powerful.  Someone else with experience with one will have to chime in here.

-

Anyhow, I should be fooling with my setup over the holiday weekend, so I'll try to give some pictures up.  

I think the picture I'm getting with 15kHz is pretty optimal, but I'm considering whether I should be getting a tri-sync Wei-Ya or Makvision monitor to add support for 480p stuff like Soul Calibur and Ikaruga on the Dreamcast.  These are the only new tri-sync monitors available right?  Once I get my pictures up, I'm hoping someone with one of these monitors can put up pictures to compare how they handle 15kHz compared to my setup.  I'll start a new thread for that.