Classic games as redemption?

[osh]

Has anyone thought about making classic games (like Mario or Pacman) a ticket redemption game? Is this a good idea? If anyone can do it can they post a tutorial?

[ChadTower]

Oh bloody hell that's worse than MAME.

[RayB]

Post a tutorial?? It's not a simple mod. You would have to changing the programming so that when certain conditions are met (ie: beat the high score) it sends out a pulse to the ticket dispenser. Not an easy task at all unless Namco were to undertake it themselves.

[ChadTower]

Post a tutorial?? It's not a simple mod. You would have to changing the programming so that when certain conditions are met (ie: beat the high score) it sends out a pulse to the ticket dispenser. Not an easy task at all unless Namco were to undertake it themselves.

You could probably fake it fairly easily.  Put a timer on the game - when game is over dispense tickets based on game duration.  The player would never know the difference.  You could easily detect coinup by listening on the coin lever circuit.  Maybe you could detect game over by listening on the joystick - when it stopped for, say, 10 straight seconds, game is over.

[fixedpigs]

Maybe you could detect game over by listening on the joystick - when it stopped for, say, 10 straight seconds, game is over.

except for the cut scenes in between some of those levels...

not a bad idea though...

[abzman2000]

a more advanced way would be to monitor the game by reading the video feed, you would get the high score, the amount of coins put in, everything.  before anyone says anything about it being impossible, didn't someone make a device like this to beat guitar hero (one that takes a video feed)

[ChadTower]

except for the cut scenes in between some of those levels...

not a bad idea though...

That is a point.  So make the max 5 seconds longer than the longest cutscene, I guess.  And that only applies to games with cutscenes so make the timer adjustable.

a more advanced way would be to monitor the game by reading the video feed, you would get the high score, the amount of coins put in, everything.  before anyone says anything about it being impossible, didn't someone make a device like this to beat guitar hero (one that takes a video feed)

That's certainly possible but probably not all that cost effective.  That device would have to be highly customized for each game.  It would have to be aware of the makeup of the killscreen for each game and exactly what sequence of scanlines was sent to do it. 

[RayB]

Translation: Too much trouble.

[Kevin Mullins]

The only thing I could see being feasible and simple is to just have the coin mech send a pulse to the ticket mech simply by dropping a coin in. Some redemption games will give out a couple tickets merely because you played them, regardless of score etc. (like two or three)

But as far as trying to based ticket count on scores or time duration, etc ...... bah .... wouldn't mess with it.

[ChadTower]

Maybe an easier duration based way would be to simply give them out for passing certain time goals.  90 seconds, 2 tickets.  180 seconds, 3 tickets.  270 seconds, 4 tickets, etc.  That way you don't need anything like an exact figure on the duration.  You just increment the ticket counter for every 90 seconds of play until it has stopped for maybe 15 seconds.

[Drews Arcade]

Ask them how they do it

http://www.ticketflex.com/TFB3_TicketflexMaximizerWithSkillMode.htm

[Kevin Mullins]

Wow... interesting. I had no idea something like that what available.
The instructions were an interesting read, seems it has several of the options we've all mentioned already.
http://www.ticketflex.com/PDF/Conversion%20Box%20User%20Guide%20CBB3.PDF

"Mercy Tickets" is kinda what I was thinking of.

[ahofle]

Maybe an easier duration based way would be to simply give them out for passing certain time goals.  90 seconds, 2 tickets.  180 seconds, 3 tickets.  270 seconds, 4 tickets, etc.  That way you don't need anything like an exact figure on the duration.  You just increment the ticket counter for every 90 seconds of play until it has stopped for maybe 15 seconds.

Sweet, I could clear out the ticket dispenser on Pacman with the hiding trick!

[richms]

It wouldnt be too hard to put a microcontroller across the video signals to sample them at certain times based on the syncs and detect the presense of pixel combinations, yes, it would be game specific but with the low freq's involved it should be pretty accurate.

The other option is to sit something across the video ram lines and snoop for the pixels being written, but that is even more board specific then something that could learn where the digits are on any given game.

[RayB]

It wouldnt be too hard to put a microcontroller across the video signals to sample them at certain times based on the syncs and detect the presense of pixel combinations, yes, it would be game specific but with the low freq's involved it should be pretty accurate.

The other option is to sit something across the video ram lines and snoop for the pixels being written, but that is even more board specific then something that could learn where the digits are on any given game.

You do understand that the signals are analog and not digital, right? That's means there's a "fuzziness" to the signal. It's not a series of 1's and 0's. (Still not IMPOSSIBLE, but quite tricky to do)

[Ummon]

I'm wondering if there isn't some obvious quality of the signal sent from the board that indicates a difference between attract and game-in-play modes. Or maybe a monitoring of the overall function of the board (though that could perhaps be really crude). Anyways, probly eighty bucks with shipping and you've got yourself a PNP solution it seems.

[richms]

You do understand that the signals are analog and not digital, right? That's means there's a "fuzziness" to the signal. It's not a series of 1's and 0's. (Still not IMPOSSIBLE, but quite tricky to do)

I have never seen grey being used onscreen, just black and white so there is no need for an ADC which would be a problem on most cheap microcontrollers.

There is also no need to sample the lot on one pass since you really only need to know what it is on the game over, not a real time tracking of it, so you could sample every 6th pixel on each line, and repeat over 6 frames if thats as fast as you could sample the lines. Its only a 15khz video signal so the pixel clock is what - 7-8 MHz at most - I expect that would be quite doable on most microcontrollers.

[Malenko]

wouldnt it be easier to just remake the games?
Im sure Namco could make a pretty accurate PacMan clone

[ChadTower]

wouldnt it be easier to just remake the games?
Im sure Namco could make a pretty accurate PacMan clone

That would require a much heavier end user investment than a drop in solution, though.  Ops aren't going to spend $4k just to add redemption to a Centipede.

[Angry_Radish]

What about just checking for audio?
As long as there are no attract sounds, have the game marked as done after 3-5 secs with no noise?

[Malenko]

wouldnt it be easier to just remake the games?
Im sure Namco could make a pretty accurate PacMan clone

That would require a much heavier end user investment than a drop in solution, though.  Ops aren't going to spend $4k just to add redemption to a Centipede.

I disagree, EEPROMs wouldnt cost $4K heck even replace PCBs with some sort of interface board for redemption games wouldnt cost more then a couple hundred. You think some sort of video monitoring and input monitoring system would be less expensive then that?

I think the idea itself is pretty lame; I went to dave and busters aka the land of redemption games, and the only games in there that even had a joystick and buttons were Madden NFL and a double Donkey Kong; everything else was driving or trivia or some sort of redemption trackball game powered by UltraCade

[ChadTower]

I disagree, EEPROMs wouldnt cost $4K heck even replace PCBs with some sort of interface board for redemption games wouldnt cost more then a couple hundred. You think some sort of video monitoring and input monitoring system would be less expensive then that?

You couldn't drop all that code into EEPROMS for existing Pac boards.  So you'd have to have new boards.  Easy enough but Namco doesn't let Pac boards go for anything less than full commerical retail.  Look at the price on a current Namco cab.  The boards and software themselves wouldn't be of much more value than a few hundred, yes... but Namco's price would be well into the thousands.

[Malenko]

You couldn't drop all that code into EEPROMS for existing Pac boards.  So you'd have to have new boards.  Easy enough but Namco doesn't let Pac boards go for anything less than full commerical retail.  Look at the price on a current Namco cab.  The boards and software themselves wouldn't be of much more value than a few hundred, yes... but Namco's price would be well into the thousands.

again Im going to have to disagree, I think the code could fit in an EEPROM. not sure how much code is needed for  "if score X send 1 pulse, if score Y send 2 pulses,etc" And namco wouldnt price so high that no one would want it.

I still stand by the fact its a stupid idea that shouldnt be implimented. Who the hell wants them to cut dispenser machien holes into cabinets anyway?

[RayB]

I still stand by the fact its a stupid idea that shouldnt be implimented. Who the hell wants them to cut dispenser machien holes into cabinets anyway?

Ops will do whatever it takes to make money. Up here in Canada, it's common to find classics with big rectangles cut out in the front, where the op put in a bill acceptor or a dollar coin acceptor.

[ChadTower]

again Im going to have to disagree, I think the code could fit in an EEPROM.

That all depends on the amount of unused space in the EEPROMs.  You can't just drop a bigger EEPROM in and expect it to work.  The CPU and memory are chosen as a pair for a reason - it's very likely that the CPU would never see any of the additional space on the EEPROM if the newer EEPROM even had the same address scheme.  Modifying embedded systems is very limited if you're not willing to physically modify the system.

And namco wouldnt price so high that no one would want it.

Namco already prices everything way above what the market will bear.  I don't see this being any different.

I still stand by the fact its a stupid idea that shouldnt be implimented. Who the hell wants them to cut dispenser machien holes into cabinets anyway?

It's a hard call but really at this point anything that might help slow the death of the arcade is something worth exploring.

[RayB]

It's a hard call but really at this point anything that might help slow the death of the arcade is something worth exploring.

Why? The patient is terminal. It's all pain and suffering from here on. Home arcades is where it's at now. 

[ChadTower]

Why? The patient is terminal. It's all pain and suffering from here on. Home arcades is where it's at now. 

If you're suggesting we convert our own games to redemption you may as well pack your ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and move back home with momma.  You don't live here no more.   

[RayB]

?!?!?    ?!?!?!

[ChadTower]

?!?!?    ?!?!?!

No redemptions in home use.  That should be punishable by being related to tommy.

If you're not actually suggesting that, carry on, false alarm and nothing to see here. 

[RayB]

My points was to let arcades die with dignity. We have home arcades to enjoy now. No need for redemption at home. No need for redemption on the classics in public.

[ChadTower]

My points was to let arcades die with dignity. We have home arcades to enjoy now. No need for redemption at home. No need for redemption on the classics in public.

I can dig that.   

[RayB]

  Word to your mother.