Connector's for Swappable panels?

[Necro]

What do most people use?  I'm leaning towards the standard molex like connectors, so each panel just has a standard 'industrial' type setup that isn't going to have some very thin wiring on it going to a DB type connector that might break. 

However, I'm having some issues locating them.  They have them at Radio Shack, but I know prices there are generally insane, so I'd like to find them online.  I'm going to purchase the rest of my wiring/connectors from AllElectronics, but I need to locate something to use for my panel connectors.

TIA for any insight/advice.

[TheShanMan]

"Most people"? I don't think there are very many of us.

I used a DB37 and the only complaint I have is that it requires more effort than I'd like, but it's not bad (really, I want too much - I'd like it to be easy like plugging in a usb device!). However, I'd think molex would be quite a bit more effort and will only discourage you from swapping panels as time goes on. Swapping takes enough time as it is; you don't want to make it any harder than it needs to be - believe me! My swappable setup is probably about as easy as it gets and I still find myself sometimes avoiding games because I'm too lazy to swap at the time.

As for breaking, I don't think that's an issue at all if you do it right. On the encoder side, I cut a pre-made DB37 in half and ran the individual wires to the encoder, and then attached the cable to the inside of the cab so there is strain relief and therefore no potential reliability issues on that side. And on the panel side I soldered the wire (can't remember off hand if it was 22 or 20 gauge) directly into DB37 connectors with solder cups, and cable tie the wires to the panel. In addition the connector itself has internal strain relief. So bottom line, I am not at all concerned about reliability of my wiring.

Let me know if you need a lead on DB37 stuff.

[Franco B]

I suppose your solution depends on the number of connections required, the cross sectional area of the poles (for powered poles) and the amount of times you estimate plugging/unplugging the connection.

I would advise against molex's as they are not designed to be plugged/unplugged repeatedly. I read somewhere they only are designed to have a 25 use life cycle (although I'm not sure I believe it).

I don't know why you don't want to use DB connectors, they are used in industrial applications all of the time, You can either buy something like a VGA extension cable and cut it in half or buy the plain sockets with solder buckets and solder them yourself.

I'm using a range of DB connectors for one of my projects. I bridged four of the poles in each DB for the +5v.

[NickG]

I used an ATX power supply extension cord (like one of these) for my first project, but I also advise against molex type, in favor of shelled & shielded connectors with proper strain relief, such as DB, Dsub, or centronics types.

[Necro]

Just to clarify and make sure I'm using the right terminology, by molex type I meant a larger version of the PC molex power connector with a larger number of connectors. 

And...honestly...I can't solder worth a damn and working with the DB connectors frightens me a bit because of the small size.  What is a 'solder cup'?  Not sure I've see that or know what it is?

And I do plan on doing a reasonable amount of swapping.  Going to be a fighter/general use CP, a spinner CP, and a third, yet to be designed CP.  I'm doing the fighter first, but need to design it with a swappable design for when I make the other CPs.

ANd Fraco I really like your setup.  What do you mean you bridged 5 poles for the +5?  So +5 is running to 5 pins on the DB connector?  Will I need to do something similar for ground?  (the CP will be lighted...)

[mountain]

Molex makes a line of connectors for similar applications called BMI (Blind Mate Interface). They have a self aligning feature that is perfect for this.

Here are a few examples. 3 is probably the best IMO.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

[CheffoJeffo]

I recall Ken Layton pointing out that Molex connectors had a limited life span, so they were probably not the best option for connectors that would be frequently cycled.

While I can't find Ken's post, I do note the following from Marvin3M, which reinforces what Franco says (and may be his source for the 25 use life cycle):

The style of Panduit and Molex connectors used in pinball generally have a 25 "cycle" life span (a "cycle" is one removal and re-installation of a connector). And frankly, after as few as five cycles, there could be problems because of the high vibration pinball environment, the reduced terminal pin tension, and the age of many games.

http://marvin3m.com/connect/index.htm#worn

 

EDIT: Other posts since I start writing this, but I think it still holds to the point ...

EDIT2: I've been looking at the BMI spec, but can't seem to find a reference to cycle life span (other than "high").

[patrickl]

And...honestly...I can't solder worth a damn and working with the DB connectors frightens me a bit because of the small size.  What is a 'solder cup'?  Not sure I've see that or know what it is?

Soldering wires into a DB connector is the easiest thing you can do. You slide the wire into a little tube and fill it with solder.

[mountain]

I recall Ken Layton pointing out that Molex connectors had a limited life span, so they were probably not the best option for connectors that would be frequently cycled.

While I can't find Ken's post, I do note the following from Marvin3M, which reinforces what Franco says (and may be his source for the 25 use life cycle):

The style of Panduit and Molex connectors used in pinball generally have a 25 "cycle" life span (a "cycle" is one removal and re-installation of a connector). And frankly, after as few as five cycles, there could be problems because of the high vibration pinball environment, the reduced terminal pin tension, and the age of many games.

http://marvin3m.com/connect/index.htm#worn

 

EDIT: Other posts since I start writing this, but I think it still holds to the point ...

Molex makes tons of different types of connectors for tons of different applications. As you know, many people refer to the plugs commonly found in arcade cabs as molex plugs. I have a Molex catalog that is 1 1/2" thick, 90% of it is their connector lines.

I am sure the reason he said that they were not meant to be cycled over and over is due to the lack of a strain relief system. Without it, the wires would break near the crimp rather soon from the constant pulling.

[TheShanMan]

What is a 'solder cup'?  Not sure I've see that or know what it is?

[Cakemeister]

IMO the easiest way is to use a separate encoder for each controller, so you just plug in a USB cable (if your encoders are USB) from the PC to the controller. No muss, no fuss. All you need is one USB cable and the right female connector on each controller, plus the same encoder on each controller, with the same keymappings on each, so the driver doesn't get confused.

[SavannahLion]

I am sure the reason he said that they were not meant to be cycled over and over is due to the lack of a strain relief system. Without it, the wires would break near the crimp rather soon from the constant pulling.

You aren't supposed to pull on the wires when disconnecting any sort of plug anyways. In a normal stereotypical molex installation, if there is so much strain on the wires as to cause concern about breakage near the crimp something is wrong.

The 25 cycles is in reference to the durability rating Molex gives their connectors. According to their specifications, the connectors may oxidize and there is a portion of the connector that removes this oxidation when cycling. For Tin plated connectors, the removal process also removes a layer of the plating (it's not supposed to occur with Gold plating). Eventually, you wear off so much of the connector that you get down to non-conductive material or the contacts have an air gap and can't make a good connection.

It's mentioned here. (They had a nice PDF going into nasty details about this, but now I can't find it   )

IMO an expensive way is to use a separate encoder for each controller, so you just plug in a USB cable (if your encoders are USB) from the PC to the controller. No muss, no fuss. All you need is one USB cable and the right female connector on each controller, plus the same encoder on each controller, with the same keymappings on each, so the driver doesn't get confused.

Fixed that sentence for you. 

[Franco B]

I recall Ken Layton pointing out that Molex connectors had a limited life span, so they were probably not the best option for connectors that would be frequently cycled.

While I can't find Ken's post, I do note the following from Marvin3M, which reinforces what Franco says (and may be his source for the 25 use life cycle):

The style of Panduit and Molex connectors used in pinball generally have a 25 "cycle" life span (a "cycle" is one removal and re-installation of a connector). And frankly, after as few as five cycles, there could be problems because of the high vibration pinball environment, the reduced terminal pin tension, and the age of many games.

http://marvin3m.com/connect/index.htm#worn

 

EDIT: Other posts since I start writing this, but I think it still holds to the point ...

EDIT2: I've been looking at the BMI spec, but can't seem to find a reference to cycle life span (other than "high").

I think it was Kens post that I read, It was definitely a post a read on this forum. If Ken posted it I'm inclined to take it as gospel.

And...honestly...I can't solder worth a damn and working with the DB connectors frightens me a bit because of the small size.  What is a 'solder cup'?  Not sure I've see that or know what it is?

Soldering wires into a DB connector is the easiest thing you can do. You slide the wire into a little tube and fill it with solder.

Yup, its actually one of the first things I have ever soldered but I found it fairly easy. Strip the right gauge wire and place it in the bucket, place the iron and solder at the right position and the solder wicks into the bucket/wire nicely. Heat shrink the connection and job done

ANd Fraco I really like your setup.  What do you mean you bridged 5 poles for the +5?  So +5 is running to 5 pins on the DB connector?  Will I need to do something similar for ground?  (the CP will be lighted...)

After disscussion in another thread I was advised that sharing the whole 5v though one pin may not be advisable for both voltage and in case the joit becomes dry etc. I ended up bridging  four pins for the +5v.

Old (bad) photo but you get the idea:

[Necro]

Well...it seems making a nice plate/attachment area with DB style connectors is the way to go.  If soldering them is as easy as people are mentioning, then hopefully I can do it.  

Thanks for all the help.  Now to figure out the number of wires I need.

And thanks for the picture Franco.  That makes total sense.  Definitely understand how to set this up now. 

[Ginsu Victim]

Soldering to a DB plug is super easy. I stink at soldering and still manage to do those nicely.

[Necro]

Actually...now that I'm looking at the picture I realize one thing.

Are you bridging the +5 on both sides of the connector or only on one side?

And...wow.  Didn't realize how many wires I'm going to have running all over the place.  To get the CPs lit up with LEDs, I'm going to have to go with 2-3 connectors per panel.  That's...unexpected.  (I'm going to be using an Ipac2 and an Optiwiz since I already have the Optiwiz)

[DeLuSioNal29]

You could always do this.  (Crimp or solder the wires onto the connector)

Male:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103294

Female:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103253

$2.79 each at your local Radio Shack.

~ D

[wbassett]

What is a 'solder cup'?  Not sure I've see that or know what it is?

Going back to my days in electronics I prefer the crimp DB connectors, but that crimp tool ain't cheap!  I'm lucky because I already own one from those days.  I like it because with the extraction tool you can repin a connector in seconds flat without having to unsolder anything.

[wbassett]

IMO the easiest way is to use a separate encoder for each controller, so you just plug in a USB cable (if your encoders are USB) from the PC to the controller. No muss, no fuss. All you need is one USB cable and the right female connector on each controller, plus the same encoder on each controller, with the same keymappings on each, so the driver doesn't get confused.

I was originally thinking this too but the price shoots up quick.  Of course a person could use a bunch of Dual Strike or other game pad hacks.

I work IT and am used to wiring up servers and routers in wiring closets so I'll probably go with something like that or a DB25 connector setup, but the game pad hack and each panel being USB is also appealing too!

[Necro]

Delusional - those are the molex connectors I was talking about.  They wear down after awhile it seems from what people are saying.

[Curbfeeler]

I used Cat5 and RJ45 for all my connections.  I think you're seeing from the various responses that any number of things are possible.  I used Cat5 because I had everything I needed on hand and didn't have to buy anything.

[um3k]

I used Cat5 and RJ45 for all my connections.  I think you're seeing from the various responses that any number of things are possible.  I used Cat5 because I had everything I needed on hand and didn't have to buy anything.

Same here.   CAT5 provides me 8 connections per cable,  which is not as many as I might like, but I can handle them pretty well using a keystone patch panel.  This way everything is removable/rewirable and RJ45 is designed to handle a good amount of abuse plugging and unplugging.    I work as a system admin and the new servers we get come with CAT5 cables, which we never use (we usually do custom length runs).   Having heaps of free CAT5 available really helps bring the price down!   I just cut them in half to wire to the encoder or switches and the factory ends go to the panel (although I do have my own crimper).  I even found the panel and keystone jacks fairly cheap.   Planning the wiring carefully (using the same pinouts / grounds across all cables even gives me the benefit of being able to physically remap controls if need be.

[Cakemeister]

If you're into soldering, Randy's got the product for you.

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_81&products_id=234

$26. Three of those is $78 plus shipping. Add some wire and you're done. With the Cat 5 cable you'll need the connectors and a crimper, plus I don't think your cable connection will be as good as with a USB cable.

Don't forget the hidden costs (time and money) associated with the various wiring methods.

[Franco B]

Actually...now that I'm looking at the picture I realize one thing.

Are you bridging the +5 on both sides of the connector or only on one side?

Each LED wiz has 32 outputs, I split the 32 outputs between four 15-pin DBs. I used the top eight pins on each DB for the outputs and then I bridged four of the lower pins on each DB for the +5v.

[coasterlvr]

I use DB25 cables and have a lot of different button/joystick combos.  I just buy 6ft cables and cut them in half and attach the wires direct.  1 or 2 females and a bunch of males connected to my different panels.  They have always worked great and you usually can find those cables pretty cheap on ebay. (4-5 bucks each)

[patrickl]

I use DB25 cables and have a lot of different button/joystick combos.  I just buy 6ft cables and cut them in half and attach the wires direct.  1 or 2 females and a bunch of males connected to my different panels.  They have always worked great and you usually can find those cables pretty cheap on ebay. (4-5 bucks each)

Indeed if you buy fully wired cables then you don't have to solder any wires onto the connectors at all. Just cut the cable in half and you have two wirred connectors. Not sure how easy it is to find those though. Maybe a parallel printer cable or something?

[TheShanMan]

Problem there is, those wires are so fine they don't crimp well, so you'd have to solder them to the terminals on the buttons and joysticks IMO. I didn't want to do that. Plus then you have delicate wires that could break at the solder joint. If you have swappable panels, then that probably means the underside of the panels gets exposed to potential abuse so you want to make sure it is durable.

[coasterlvr]

Problem there is, those wires are so fine they don't crimp well, so you'd have to solder them to the terminals on the buttons and joysticks IMO. I didn't want to do that. Plus then you have delicate wires that could break at the solder joint. If you have swappable panels, then that probably means the underside of the panels gets exposed to potential abuse so you want to make sure it is durable.

I've never had a problem, but I understand the thought.  I've also been in the Car Audio world for over 20 years and crimping is a way of life so I'm used to doing it well.  I've had some panels for probably close to 8-9 years, almost when MAME first started and haven't had any problems with the crimps.  I do take real care to make sure the wires do not get tugged on and are very secure including the db25 connector.

I've recently made a few more panels and got a bunch of cables on ebay for $5 bucks each.  One cable can be cut and used for 2 panels so it works out great and cheap.

[TheShanMan]

You can crimp 28 gauge wire in regular terminals? I'm impressed!

[um3k]

You can crimp 28 gauge wire in regular terminals? I'm impressed!

Just fold it over once and it will get to a good enough thickness to crimp easily.

[TheShanMan]

And to think I folded 22 gauge twice to make sure I got good crimps with that! I must suck at crimping compared to you guys.

[um3k]

Well...    I was thinking of my looped grounds which I'm twisting together the wires coming from both directions then folding over - so I guess that is the same as a single wire folded over twice 

[mountain]

For smaller wire you can always solder the wires to the crimped connection for added security.

[Necro]

I know there was a post where a bunch of places to purchase DB cables cheap was point out...I can't find it for the life of me.  Can anyone point either the thread or where to purchase them from?  I'm trying to find a 37 connector one in particular.

[Franco B]

Search ebay for 'SCSI Cable'. I couldn't see any 37 pin cables but there are plenty of 50 pin cables. That's what Jimbo used in [his project].

EDIT: Actually, searching for '37 pin cable' brings up a few cables in the states.

It looks like parallel printer cables are 36 pins, if you search for '36 pin cable' you should find a few amongst the 36 pin>USB adapter cables.

[HaRuMaN]

I know there was a post where a bunch of places to purchase DB cables cheap was point out...I can't find it for the life of me.  Can anyone point either the thread or where to purchase them from?  I'm trying to find a 37 connector one in particular.

monoprice.com for cheap cables of almost any kind, including DB-xx...   

[Cakemeister]

http://www.winfordeng.com/products/cat_cables.php

Winford Engineering has DB37 cables for $10.50. You buy one male/male cable and one male/female cable, cut both cables in half, and presto, you have connectors for three panels. The female end attaches to your encoder and the male ends connect to your panels. You don't have to solder wires to the connector, only to your controls. If 3 feet of wire isn't enough to run the wires (the $10.50 cables are 6 feet long), they have a male/female 10 foot cable.

The monoprice cables are cheaper. I don't know if they pass through all the pins like the Winford ones do. I didn't look at the shipping costs.

[Necro]

You guy's all rock.  THanks

I have no idea why I forgot monoprice.  I suggest them to tons of people for AV wire, can't fathom why my head just blanked out.

I'm trying to get my orders setup today.  Debating if on the CP side it would be easier to just make up a connector from scratch or to buy a cable and cut it.  Seems like cutting it would be a HELL of a lot easier.

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, I got mine from Winford. Happy with that purchase.

[HaRuMaN]

You guy's all rock.  THanks

I have no idea why I forgot monoprice.  I suggest them to tons of people for AV wire, can't fathom why my head just blanked out.

I'm trying to get my orders setup today.  Debating if on the CP side it would be easier to just make up a connector from scratch or to buy a cable and cut it.  Seems like cutting it would be a HELL of a lot easier.

Or... if money is not an issue, you can buy some of those DB-25 breakout boards from Winford and make your life really easy...  

[Necro]

Oh yeah, only $30 each!  

I decided to go with the cables from Monoprice.  I'm willing to bet (well, kind of did) that a DB is a DB cable and all pins go through.  Got enough for all of my connectors (the 3 different sizes) and 3 CPs as mentioned above. 

The only thing I now need to figure out is how to 'mount them.  I'm thinking remove the 'screw' terminals from the female side (which will be in the cab and connected to the encoders), and glue or somehow fasten them to a piece of metal with a cut out.  Then have the male sides (CP side) connect to that and be able to screw into the metal panel.  Not sure how to thread the panel properly, but I'l figure all that out.

[telengard]

Seems like you already made your decision but I thought I'd chime in w/ the Cat 5 connector suggestion since that is what I used after switching over from Molex.  A DB or Molex connector needs 3 hands to swap out panels (at least in my case).  1 to hold the panel, and 2 to separate the connectors.

Just something to think about....  more info is always good.   

~telengard

[Necro]

Depends on how it's configured and the size of the panels.  Also, if you put a handle on the back of the panels   (which...now I may do... )

Honestly though, while I like the cat5 idea, it would simply require way WAY too many connections to be made (I'm going to be setting it up so that everything goes through from the encoders to the modular jacks so I can always design additional CPs if I want and am not restricted by my initial design.

The other thing is that this is kind of a strangely designed cab (an Omega Race) so I'm working with some odd cabinet things going on...