Stern layoffs

[RayB]

http://www.retroblast.com/20081031716/Latest/The-End-Of-Pinball.php

[RayB]

There's a lot of debate over whether this is a move to "weather the storm" or really represents the end [of pinball]. Only time will tell.

[Mauzy]

History people. Good Bye Pinball. Not that they were doing anything spectacular, but the glimmer of hope for the return of pinball is GONE...

[Xiaou2]

 Pinball will never be completely gone.

 If it does not stay commercial...  it will more than likely re-emerge
in the home markets with build-your-own kits.  Or sales from such builds.
 (not to mention all the machines that already exist and are being enjoyed
by collectors)

 Stern is like the Kmart of Pinball.   They try to sell the cheapest, unreliable
crap... at prices that were on par with good quality merchandise. 

 Williams could have stuck around actually...   If only they hadnt made the mistake
of Pinball2000.   By using up valuable playfeild space... they essentially ruined
the thing that people loved most about pinball... "Good Gamplay".


 The Only thing that could save Stern is a change of thinking.    They would have to
go all out and spend the money needed to make a GREAT machine instead of a
lackluster turd.  (This includes hiring REAL Artist!!!  As well as redesigning mechanical
structures to be more durable and maintenance free)

 All I can say... is that if a pinball company was to re-release a game like
Medieval Madness... It would sell like Hotcakes.   From both collectors,
mom&pop stores, Ops...etc.     We are talking good gameplay, Amazing artwork,
hilarious commentary,  and great theme.    Im sure other Williams remakes would
sell very well too.      As well as any machines made which actually lived up to,
or surpassed  Willaims standards.
 

 As bad as the Economies get... people will always find the money to blow on
expensive things.   They wont however be willing to blow money on Utter Crap.
(Which is what Stern has been proudly producing)

[Xiaou2]

 

 I just popped over to Pinball news and read that Sterns next pin will be  CSI   !!! 

 

 With lame themes like these..  (in addition to all else mentioned) 
Its no wonder why they are tanking.

 

[Cakemeister]

I think new machines will no longer be produced.

The new Big Bang Bar machines cost something like $6500 each to make. These were not the cheap Stern machines.

There's just too much labor involved in designing the playfields, software, and the actual assembly of the machines to make much money off of it.

As far as new MM machines go, the rights to that machine, and the other Williams machines such as Cactus Canyon, were sold to a guy to has proven himself completely incapable of producing new machines.

I don't see Stern sticking around as a manufacturer of parts, either. They probably will end up closing up shop and selling their warehouse full of parts to someone like Pinball Resource or someone similar.

Creating your own playfield, software, and artwork is a daunting undertaking, even if you had templates you could build cabinets from. I don't think that will happen, either.

RIP pinball   

[RayB]

All I can say... is that if a pinball company was to re-release a game like
Medieval Madness... It would sell like Hotcakes.   From both collectors,
mom&pop stores, Ops...etc.     We are talking good gameplay, Amazing artwork,
hilarious commentary,  and great theme.    Im sure other Williams remakes would
sell very well too.      As well as any machines made which actually lived up to,
or surpassed  Willaims standards.

Yeah OK.

[FrizzleFried]

X evidently has "zero" understanding of the market required for pinball to succeed.  Unfortunately the market isn't there...hasn't been there for quite a few years now,  and the chances of Stern staying in business selling "kits" to home users is about as realistic as death trains rolling to domestic human holding facilities....

[Mauzy]

X evidently has "zero" understanding of the market required for pinball to succeed.  Unfortunately the market isn't there...hasn't been there for quite a few years now,  and the chances of Stern staying in business selling "kits" to home users is about as realistic as death trains rolling to domestic human holding facilities....

BA ZOW!

[Xiaou2]

 Why dont you go look on ebay and witness sales of Pinball machines EVERY FREEKING
DAY!    Most of these are sold for well over $1000... and most are $2500 to $3500.
And some restored machines are selling for $4000 -  +$7000

 Medieval Madness cant be found for less than $5000 unless the seller is a fool.
Indiana Jones (Williams) continues to grow in its value..  and now for a good
condition machine is around $3000 for a 15yr old machine.

 Many of the buyers of these machines are home owners.   Yet, there are markets
for businesses and ops.   

 None of which are going to feed into lame themes like CSI, or Wheel of Fortune!
Even the people who play out arnt going to feed those machines quarters.


 As for Bing Bang Bar... the cost was very high because of a very limited number run,
as well as the guy getting crap quality work which had to be re-done several times.
(at his own cost)

 If he had a factory set up like Stern... where everything is done In-House... then
he wouldnt have had the Vendor issues to deal with and would have stayed on
budget.   And that was on an extremely small run.   

 Pinball isnt dead, and will not die.   Visit a pinball show,  and meet up with
collectors,  and you will see that these machines will be around forever...
and in time...  SOMEONE will make replacement parts and kits.   I never said
Stern would.   (Just as SOME have started to make ARCADE parts for us BYOAC people)


 While making pins is not an easy task... its far from impossible.   

 When someone brought up the idea of making a video arcade machine that
plays old arcade games...  were they shunned off as crazy?   Well look at what
we have here...  Thousands of arcade projects.   Many not even listed on this
site.   Not just simple boxes either... But cabinets with incredible complexity,
detailed artwork, and great woodworking.

 A BYO pinball machine is not very much more than what it takes to BYOAC.

[RayB]

Collector market != Mass market

[Mauzy]

Im gonna have to say I agree with 99% of what Xiaou just said. Pins do sell pretty well on ebay, and if I had the money, I would most definitely build my own pin...

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a BYOPBM forum within a few years.

[Xiaou2]

 Thanks Mauzy.

 As for money...  Well,  just think about whatever else you have not had the money
for... and eventually,  you got it.     A lot of people didnt have money to BYOAC,
but sooner or later.. that passion led to them getting what they desired.   Its really
no different with Pinball.

 In fact, the draw of a good playing pinball can actually surpass the value of video games... In that most video games are almost always the same each time you play them.  However,  a Pinball machine has a Random element to it... so that every game will be completely different.  There is both skill and luck in there.

 Also, there is a completely different type of draw to pinball.   Its much more
of physical game of skill... and its "feel" just can not be duplicated in video form.


 I have to say... that Originally I wasnt a big fan of Pinball... Until I found the right
machine.   That happened to be Black Knight 2000.   Then later, I was exposed
to No Fear... which also grew on me.   Once I went to pin shows and got to play
at collectors basements... the Love grew on me to the point where I got the fever,
and HAD to have a machine.   (Which then multiplied to two.. )

 
 As for Collector Market = Mass market comment....


 First off...  At one point in time,  The general mass Public didnt even realize it was
possible to purchase arcade machines.     Used machines for sale  were also a rarity
because Ops tended to just use the cabs for conversion kits.   Pins were generally
just repaired over and over... and moved to other locations.    Certainly some were
sold... but it wasnt a huge known thing.    Most sales back then were from entire fallen
arcades machines going to a physical auction... which were not always well known.

 Later... as the industry was starting to fall apart..  Used games started to be sold
outright on a one-by-one basis.   Things really started to cook with the internet sales.


Now,

   Why do you think the big companies started to release games from the
arcades to Home Console systems so quickly?    Because there is a greater number
of customers out there!   They can actually make more money selling home ports than
made in selling full coinop equipment.


  I used the term collector... however.. I could have really used  Enthusiast.   
Such as a "Video game Enthusiast".

 And trust me... even if You dont have a pin... there are a LOT of people out there who
do.   And many of them have several, if not entire basements filled with them.

 Being that the Population is growing every day... and that there are people out there
who were kids when Pinball was more public,  and Now they actually have money...
there are a lot of potential customers out there.

 I can tell you that Ive met the Local pinball collector/enthusiast here in my small
city... and its a lot bigger than you would think.   I personally know enough collectors here to fill a room... and thats just the people Ive managed to meet.   Theres a lot more
that I have not met.    A lot of these guys and gals have a minimum of two machines,
and many have entire basements worth.   Mixes of Videos and Pins.

 
 Also, go to the latest Pinball show, and you will see something like 300 pins easily.
Most of which are owned by citizens, and not businesses.    Then, look at the shear
Number of pins that Willams made for ONE popular machine... and realize that most
all of them are still in operation,  and many are in someones house.   And that is only
ONE of the THOUSANDS of machines made of that SINGLE PINBALL TITLE.

[shardian]

The coin-op pin market has been dead for over a decade. The home market was the only thing keeping Stern above water. Your ebay example is not evidence for your case Xiaou, it is the exact reason why commercial production of pins is in death throes. Why buy a POS from Stern for $4k, when you can get any(with a handful of exceptions) mint condition excellent game for $3k or less? Sure, collectors are still spending, but the economic downturn has pushed most collectors back to the cheaper used market.


And Xiaou, when was the last time you saw a pin on a route? Okay, now tell me when was the last time you saw a pin on route that even covered its electrical expenses?

[FrizzleFried]

Case in point:  Whirlwind at The Pizza Factory around the corner from my house.  Talking with the owner of the pizza joint and they want it gone.  Why?  NO ONE ever plays it.  They say they collect 10x as much each of the different video games there... even R-Type pulls more dough.

"I think they pulled MAYBE $10.00 out of that machine last month"...that's what she said about whirlwind (and probably $3.00 of that $10.00 was mine!)

[RayB]

Xiau, you seem to be arguing there's a market for new machines, and yet at the same time, supporting the reasons why there isn't enough of a market...

There are pinball machines floating out there from rmore than 6 decades worth of manufacturing. They are all for the most part second hand machines. A crap load of those sales have very little overhead cost. Someone finds bargains on craigslist, or in a warehouse, cleans them up, then sells them for a profit. Those guys don't have the overhead of having to order X # of minimum parts to keep costs down, then assemble it all, and then try to make a profit on top of their base costs, manufacturing labour, factory lease, insurance, marketing, distribution, (ad nauseum).

So go for it dude. Try selling brand new machines that are somehow better than Stern's yet cost less, and make a profit on top. Stern already acknowledged that half their sales go to the home market (and yet we're talking less than 10,000 machines per year).

The only way it could work IMO would be to shift all the manufacturing to China and really cut down on features. No coin door. Fewer or no mechanical toys. Generic parts. You'd end up with something half way between a Stern and a "Zizzle" toy. Who'd want that? Not the guys you pointed out buying $2000 machines off Ebay.

PS: Another caveat is the machines on ebay that sell for big coin retain their value. Purchase something new though, and you sure as hell are not going to get that much when you decide to sell it. So you can't compare collectibles to new items equally.

[ChadTower]

The only way it could work IMO would be to shift all the manufacturing to China and really cut down on features. No coin door. Fewer or no mechanical toys. Generic parts. You'd end up with something half way between a Stern and a "Zizzle" toy. Who'd want that?

You'd end up with almost any pin made in the 80s.  Seems to me a lot of those games are pretty good.  Hard to say if they would be competitive on location now, though.  It boggles my mind that people don't want pinball but they will throw plastic balls into the mouth of a huge fat chick.

[shardian]

You'd end up with almost any pin made in the 80s.  Seems to me a lot of those games are pretty good.  Hard to say if they would be competitive on location now, though.  It boggles my mind that people don't want pinball but they will throw plastic balls into the mouth of a huge fat chick.

I still don't understand why Stern never added a ticket dispenser option to their pins. I have heard it from so many people it is ridiculous - "That game doesn't give out tickets. Why would I play that?"

Sad but true, that is why the pins never get played by the young-uns at the gambling training centers...I mean Chuck-E-Cheese.

If there were a ticket dispensing option, there would be a person at the game non-stop.

[ChadTower]

Idiots that spend $15 playing crappy games to get $1.25 worth of useless crap.  It's like the lottery - a voluntary tax on people who are bad at math.

[Xiaou2]

collectors are still spending, but the economic downturn has pushed most collectors back to the cheaper used market.

 WHAT?!   Are you NUTS?!

   Collectors seek out GOOD GAMES.  Its matters not if they are new or old.  In fact,
they will pay MORE for a USED OLD game that is BETTER than a POS STERN.

 Why buy a brand new machine that is inferior in Art quality, sound Quality,
Gamplay Quality...etc?!

 Thats the damn point.   Make a Pin that is WORTH BUYING AND PEOPLE WILL BUY IT!

 Lets look at some numbers:


Pinball Machine                           Machines Sold
------------------------------------------------------------
Adams Family                               20,270
Indiana Jones (Williams)              12,716
Creature from the Black Lagoon   7841
Theatre of Magic                           6600

Bad Cats:                                    2,500
Congo                                           2129

 Hmm, can you tell me which games had  Horrific Theme choices from the
sales figures?   Or could you simply tell by looking at the names?   
It dont take a Rocket Scientist to make the connection here.   You pick a crappy
theme... add poor gameplay... and you get **** for sales.


 Lets look at a Stern:

Monopoly              3640
Lord of the Rings  5100

( Id put up other Stern Figures..  But I assume they must be very low cause they
simply are not posted anywhere)
 

 Hmmm,   Monopoly?!   What the hell kind of Pinball theme is that?!   You really
think it was bad economy that lead to such low sales?!   Nope.  It was HORRIBLE
THEME CHOICE.

 LOTR did better clearly...  however,  if anyone has played LOTR for a bit... well,
its really not that good.  Still... at least it 'Looks' decent... and is one of the few Sterns
that has an 'ok' gameplay to it.    Still.. .most people when given the choice of buying
a LOTR and a Theatre of Magic... will always choose the TOM.   Its simply a better
game all around.

 But what we really dont see... which would be the real kicker... is "on location"
earnings.    Place a Monopoly, Ripleys, Wheel of Fortune, Nascar..etc.. next to any
of those Williams machines and you will quickly see the difference at the end of week.


 You really think Ripleys,  World Poker Tour,  or  CSI   will sell well in even a Good
economy???!!!    Get real man.   Its utter garbage that only the truly tasteless
would desire.    If Ive offended you... Tough cookies.   Lack or interest & Sales prove it.
The masses dont agree with your assessments/opinions.

"It boggles my mind that people don't want pinball but they will throw plastic balls into the mouth of a huge fat chick."

 One of the main reasons... is that the ball eaters usually actually Work 100% most
of the time when you go to play them.    Unlike Pinball,  which is usually riddled with
mechanical problems, many that could be avoided with better designs and materials.
 
 Pinball basically died, because the fans who love the game simply got tired of dropping coins in broken machines that are no fun to play.

A crap load of those sales have very little overhead cost.

 I was making the point that People have money to spend on Pinball Machines.... and
do so EVERY DAY.   If you believe that the economy is bad... fine...  but then, why
are people Still buying Pins EVERY DAY on EBAY???    Thousands of machines are sold
each day.    Thats a LOT of money, and a HUGE customer base.

 If someone has the choice between buying a $3500  Williams Indiana Jones...
and the latest greatest New machine that stomps it in looks, sound, rules/depth,
and gameplay...  for only $1500 more...   its going to be a case of pinball fever ripping
the credit card right out of the wallet for the new machine.  Afford it or not.. people
buy what they desire.   SOme who cant afford it now, may buy 2 used machines.. and
later sell them off to buy a brand new pin.    Or will go so far as to sell off other
things from other hobbies to make the money needed.

 But, as stated over and over... its got to be Worth it.   Its got to be a real
masterpiece.   Its got to be a great theme,  great art, great play,  modern technology.

 Only a select few Mindless Ops would bust out the wallet for Wheel Of Fortune. lol
My Grama sure aint buying one,  and shes watched the show forever!   lol

"Try selling brand new machines that are somehow better than Stern's yet cost less"

 Who said anything about costing less?

 Fist off... Wasnt Williams machines selling for about the same as what Stern sells their
TURDS for now?   

 As for my opinion... I believe pins could be made sold at higher prices and still sell
better than sterns in the crappiest economy.    An object of great desire will Always
hold value,  and always will be bought.

 

"Re: Wirlwind:   NO ONE ever plays it."

 Wirlwind isnt the best title.  In fact, I think it plays like crap.  But beyond that,  Just
how well does it even work?   Id be willing to bet its beat to hell with sensors that
dont register,  sticking flippers, slow play cause its so filthy..etc.   

 Put in a decent title like  MM or Indy... and have it working 100% and it would get
played.   

 When I was like 15,  I walked into my local arcade.. and there was a new pin.

 Black Knight 2000.    Id played a few other pins there like Funhouse, and some
others... but they were not that fun,  so didnt really put much into them.   But I figure
id give this one a try...

 The Sound Track was Rockin.  The ball was lightning fast... and the lightshow was
spectacular.  I was hooked.    I must have dropped $15  into that machine that night
playing nearly nonstop and Loving it.    The most I had ever put into a pin in a night
may have been a single dollar at most.

 I came back next weekend to play... however, this time... the Flipper that makes
the shot up to the main ramp wasnt working well.   It became underpowered... and so
no matter what, you couldnt get the upper playfeild... and it Ruined the game.   I left
after the 1st game in frustration.    They never fixed it properly, and eventually, the
game was gone, never to be seen again.


 Making  Pins more reliable would have kept that machine earning very well... and
Ops would have made their money back and a ton of profit on top.   Yet, with
crapily designed machines that take way too much maintenance... and the Ops arnt
going to be able to keep it up enough to actually make good money on it.

 Customers will always think the thing is bused, even when its been fixed... because
of bad past experiences.    And soon, the pin is being sold away or sitting in the corner
collecting dust,  not paying for itself, and not making any profit...  and the Ops not
going to buy another one...

[Xiaou2]

Sorry... but I cant help myself...

 CSI   !!!

 

[shardian]

Technically, Addams was a horrible theme. The gameplay is great though. Pinball died, just as arcades have died. Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene. Accept it, and get over it. No amount of 'awesomeness' in any game Stern made or makes will revive the scene to what it was before.

P.S. I like Addams now, but the staircase is still by far the ugliest toy ever put on a pinball machine. That game simply defied all logic by selling as many units as it did.

[Mauzy]

Technically, Addams was a horrible theme. The gameplay is great though. Pinball died, just as arcades have died. Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene. Accept it, and get over it. No amount of 'awesomeness' in any game Stern made or makes will revive the scene to what it was before.

P.S. I like Addams now, but the staircase is still by far the ugliest toy ever put on a pinball machine. That game simply defied all logic by selling as many units as it did.

Just curious, what was wrong with the Addams Family theme? At least there was a reason for it to exist (recent movie release) unlike Monopoly and the like...

[shardian]

Hello! Cheesy 'flavor of the month' movie license! That is what Stern is being criticized for anymore.

[Mauzy]

But atleast it was a quality PLAYING game. I can take a hit in the theme if it plays pretty solid, but then again I actually enjoyed the movie as a kid too.  What Stern was doing was making games with crappy theme AND crappy play. Not many people can accept both.

[shardian]

I tend to look at it as Stern was taking Excellent themes, implementing them poorly and making them crappy, then pairing it with crappy play to complete the whole crappy package. Perfect examples: POTC and Batman. Williams would have LOVED to get themes like that back in the day, and would have made games for them that outshined TAF and TZ.

[ChadTower]

Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene.

That's not accurate... pin production numbers were decent in the 70s and did decline once vids hit the scene.  Then they shot way back up in 1986 when High Speed came out.  They were pretty high for quite a while there with multiple companies making multiple high production titles.  High Speed was over 17,000 which is very high for pinball.  Skipping a couple years you go forward to Addams Family in '92 at over 20k and Twilight Zone in '93 over 15k.  It fell of really fast not long after that, though.

I think there could be one more big run for pinball.  I'm not sure there is anyone out there willing to take the financial risk since the odds are really low but there is a concept out there that could spark another 4-5 year strong run.  We thought vids were dead too until the music games hit North America.

[koolmoecraig]

Have you ever looked at production numbers in the 70's? They have been in a steady decline ever since videos came onto the scene.

That's not accurate... pin production numbers were decent in the 70s and did decline once vids hit the scene.  Then they shot way back up in 1986 when High Speed came out.  They were pretty high for quite a while there with multiple companies making multiple high production titles.  High Speed was over 17,000 which is very high for pinball.  Skipping a couple years you go forward to Addams Family in '92 at over 20k and Twilight Zone in '93 over 15k.  It fell of really fast not long after that, though.

I think there could be one more big run for pinball.  I'm not sure there is anyone out there willing to take the financial risk since the odds are really low but there is a concept out there that could spark another 4-5 year strong run.  We thought vids were dead too until the music games hit North America.

Yeah wasn't '92-'94 the biggest sales #'s ever?

The DMD display really kicked sales into high gear.

[WareWolF]

I played WOF the other day and it actually IS a fun game. 
It is probably one of the best playing sterns ever. 
If you do not play it because you do not like the 'theme' you are being foolish.

[Xiaou2]

You say WOF is fun?  You ever play ANY williams machines?   Which ones?  Cause its
highly doubtful any Stern can compare in fun to a good Willams machine.

Not only that... but its  WOF !!!    Not only would I look pathetic playing such a
theme... but the theme does nothing to inspire me at All.  In fact, I dont even like
to watch the show.

 Nope.  I wont be playing WOF.

 I made the mistake of trying their new Indiana pin... and it was so bad
that it was the Last time Id play a Stern.   And ya know what... Ive played
many of their games (for free)... cause some of the collectors I know have a thing
for Sterns. (Very bad tastes)

 LOTR is the only one Id even consider putting money into if I was out.  Buy it? Nah.
(well, not unless it was under $600 and in good condition!  heh)
 
Play is limited, and game is very cheap on the edge drains on the easiest post
setting (poor design).  Sound is muffled and drab. Looks decent.. but printed artwork
is pathetic (lowres, drab colors, crap).  The path of dead is stupid n useless.


POTC is soso.  Not really good enough for me to drop coin. Not worthy of purchase.
Sounds are very bad on this.  Annoying quotes.  Parts where voices overlap. Poor audio quality as always.


 Spiderman is a snorefest.   Its literally no fun at all.

 Simpsons Pinball Party plays awkward and isnt very fun cause of that.
Usually way too easy (play forever).  The upper level thing is cool.. and heck, good theme... but... poor play IMOP   just ruins it.  Also not many good shots.

 Family Guy is a train wreck.  Im not a big fan of the show... but the play/flow is worse
than Simpsons.  It looks bad too.   Has nothing inspiring at all.   Then again,  the show
isnt very inspiring either.  A really crappy theme choice.

 T3 - Too many ramps leading to other ramps?!  Why?!  Stale crusty gameplay.
Pingpong idea stupid... and worse... it doesnt work well.  (bad accuracy, and
assembly is prone to problems)

[shardian]

You forgot to critique Elvis - which is by far my favorite Stern Pin.

Unfortunately, the route one I play just keeps getting worse and worse. Hardly anything works on it anymore. The only bad thing I can say about Elvis is the cheesy hotel design. Slap an aftermarket molded hotel on there and you have an excellent all around game.

[Cyberflexx]

You forgot to critique Elvis - which is by far my favorite Stern Pin.

Unfortunately, the route one I play just keeps getting worse and worse. Hardly anything works on it anymore. The only bad thing I can say about Elvis is the cheesy hotel design. Slap an aftermarket molded hotel on there and you have an excellent all around game.

Elvis friggin rocks..If I had my choice right now, I would pick that or Austin Powers..

[ChadTower]

IMO Elvis is a decent game but really suffers from not enough quality music clips.  Movie themes can get away with that but when your whole theme revolves around sound and the sound is poor...

[RayB]

Lets see, pin #s declined due to vids (and let's face it, lack of innovation in pins). Highspeed was the machine that really reignited interest thanks to innovation. It was an exciting and different pin to play (I remember when I played it for the first time, it really wowed me) and they (Williams, Bally, etc) had the benefit of arcades still being popular.

So then arcades decline... so does pin interest... then BAM 92/93 it reignites? Let's see what coincides with this time period? Oh yes, Street Fighter II. The game that brought people BACK to arcades and coin-op entertainment back to mom & pop stores, etc.

And then it declines again. And through the 90's the pin companies bail out one by one as the market shrank (in step with arcade popularity!). Gottlieb, Bally, Sega, Capcom, then finally Williams. One by one.

My point: Pinball survived and had its ups and downs THANKS to video arcades. People went to play SF2, and put a few quarters in the pins while they were at it, not the other way around. I think Stern using mass market licenses has had a big role in helping keep them alive for as long as they have. A movie or television tie-in is going to fit into a general public setting like a bar much more than some geeky theme like dungeons and dragons. Hardcore pin fans might not like it, but hey, do you build a business catering to a market of 1,000 hardcore or do you try to cater to the millions of casual players? Even the video game industry right now is facing tough choices. They can spend $10 million on a AAA hardcore game that might not even break even, or spend $400,000 on a more casual mass market type of game that sells to everyone and their grandma.

It's over. The best pinball game design won't bring anyone back to playing pins enough to thrive. Maybe a niche collector market could work if costs are kept really low, but there won't be any profit. It would have to be purely for the love of it, like what The Pinball Factory has done and is trying to do.

[ChadTower]

It would have to be purely for the love of it, like what The Pinball Company has done.

And Classic Playfield Reproductions.  What those guys have done is amazing.  Not a ton of profit in their setup - and it's actually pretty small when you consider how much product they put out.

[RayB]

*Edit* Fixed the name there of Pinball Factory, but there's also "Pinball Manufacturing" who did a run of Big Bang Bar. I remember reading that someone at one of those companies guy dumped $1 million into a project and didn't make his money back

[Mauzy]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what was so innovative in High Speed? Ive never played it, but Ive played The Getaway quite a bit.

[RayB]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what was so innovative in High Speed? Ive never played it, but Ive played The Getaway quite a bit.

It's hard to describe... relying on memory and scanning through ipdb.org by year is helping me remember... Williams was already doing "ok" with pins like Comet and Space Shuttle, and Bally had a few good ones too, but in general leading up to the release of High Speed, pin play was usually on a flat playfield, and you'd hit the ball here and there and there were sounds... Yay. What High Speed really nailed as I remember, was a "feeling" like you get playing a really well tweaked classic video game (like comparing Centipede to boring space shooters that preceded its release). In HS they really managed to convey a feeling that your game had a "progression" to it -- taking off in a car and then you're chased by cops, and there's a full music sound track keeping the adrenaline going, plus extra "toys" like a real rotating emergency light on the top.

In other words they really nailed creating excitement, and conveying the theme (whereas most pinballs before, you had a theme, yes, but it was just art to look at, sound effects to hear, and some things to bat the ball at). You can see how they were ramping up this kind of attention to detail in their design of Comet for example, and also creating more "height" within the playfield to make more room for ramps and extra stuff, so it's not all flat. The production numbers speak for themselves (over 17,000 units of HS when 2000-3000 units was usually the norm).

Pin Bot was then released same year and it too had some real cool features, sold a lot.

Do an advanced search at www.ipdb.org and enter just a year. It's interesting to see the unit numbers and how Williams took a clear lead. Compare playfield designs and you can see how much more went into Williams pins. (For example compare "Bad Girls" to "Cyclone").

[pinballwizard79]

Mustard 

[ChadTower]

High Speed didn't save pinball on its own.  It was the game that finally was the right balance between speed, progression, and fun.  It was just a great game.  The game that turned everything on its ear and started the industry turnaround was Black Knight.  First multilevel playfield, first magna save, first timed bonus balls, insane speed and looping, far deeper difficulty than usual.  It was a major advance in pinball concepts.  It was such a jump in difficulty, though, that I think it lost a lot of the more casual players, which is where High Speed came back in.  High Speed combined enough of those advancements in a game that was very intuitive to understand and accessible to novices but was hard enough to master that it kept the hardcore players happy.  That's when the sales numbers shot way up.