NEC XM29 Owners... Using It's Full Potential?

[Charles4400]

Well I finally got my hands on an NEC XM29! WoooHooo!!!

For those of you who have one or have used one in your mame cab.... how were you able to use all resolutions on it?

With ArcadeVGA2 it seems that you can plug it into the VGA port which according to Andy:
"You would need to connect to the VGA port otherwise you will not get 15Khz
or 25Khz resolutions. And install the tri-sync <utility> to get 31Khz VGA."

This seems to essentially uses it as an Arcade Monitor.

However how did you get the higher resolutions for windows or for higher resolution mame roms or other games?

If I understand correctly (and I may be wrong) using a regular graphics card will not allow the resolution to go as low to 15khz,25khz or 31kzh, even though this monitor supports it.

But how are you able to get the higher resolutions....?

Did any of you encounter these problems and how did you work around it?

I haven't hooked up the monitor yet still deciding on a computer to get.

Thanks!

[ArtMAME]

You can use Andy's card or you can use an ATI Radeon plus Soft15KHz to output native arcade resolutions on your monitor. 

For an arcade monitor to output higher resolutions, while still syncing at 15KHz, it will have to use interlace mode.  This has the effect of the higher resolutions appearing flickery.  The native arcade resolutions will have no flicker at all, but higher ones will. 

For example, let's say you set up your resolution to 320x240 and try to display a Windows desktop on a normal arcade monitor that uses 15KHz only.  The Windows will have huge icons, and a noticeably smaller desktop area.  Now, you can switch the resolution to 640x480, while still at 15KHz, you will see a bigger desktop area by comparison and smaller icons, but you will notice flicker.   Interlacing is not bad at 640x480, and it will work fine for Front Ends and the occasional Windows/MAME/FE configuration session.  With higher resolutions, the interlacing becomes very annoying and practically unusable for gaming.

Now it is true that your NEC XM29 will do higher PC resolutions, but the card has to be syncing faster for those resolutions to not have flicker.  31KHz for VGA (640x480), 41KHz for SVGA (800x600) I think, and 48KHz for UVGA (1024x768). 

To the extent that I have tinkered with it.  When you enable the card for native arcade resolutions, it will stay at those sync rates.  I have not found a way to switch back to PC resolutions with out the flicker. 

Now one solutions could be to create a double-boot PC, where one boot partition will have the ArcadeVGA enabled for your native arcade resolutions, and the other boot partition will have normal PC resolutions for your PC games and such.  This way is a brute force method, but it will get you your PC resolutions without flicker.

Well that was a mouthful...  hope it helps.

 

[Charles4400]

Thanks for the reply!

That does give me a better understanding of using the xm29.

I wonder though, is it possible to use 2 different graphics cards (one just for mame and the other for frontend and windows games? while still using the same monitor >  ) hmmm...

[Jack Burton]

For high res's just plug your VGA cable into it and turn it on.  Simple as that!

For arcade games, the easiest way is to use advancemame. 

You can keep all your desktop resolution settings with no flicker, and when you start a game up in advancemame it will automatically sync to whatever resolution the game plays at natively.

This is what I do with my Mitsubishi XC3717C monitor and Diamondscan 20m monitors, both of which are extremely similar to yours. 

Alternatively, you could install Soft 15khz and use an ATI or Nvidia graphics card and run a resolution that is high for your desktop, like 800x600, and you will have no flicker.  Set your emulator to switch resolutions when you start games and you will be set.


By the way, very high resolutions like 1024x768 will not look as good on this monitor as on a regular pc monitor.  The dot pitch will ensure that the image is significantly softer, so don't be alarmed when it doesn't look the same.

Also, artmame, are you saying that once the AVGA is set to 15khz, you cannot set a 480p resolution in the desktop?  Cause I have had the same problem with Soft 15khz and my Nvideo GeForceFX 5200.  I have to set to 800x600 to lose the flicker.

[Silver]

All this sounds overly complicated... If your gfx is support by the Soft15Khz app, then you can install that (choosing support for 15Khz/25Khz/31khz) - essentially adding native arcade resolutions to the windows.

(The XM29 supports 15Khz - 40/50Khz through a single input.)

Then you can run your desktop at 1024x768, non-interlace, no-flicker (the Xm29 looks rather good - it is designed presenting stuff...) and when you launch mame games it will choose a suitable native res* and off you go...

2 notes:

Some Xm29's don't support the 25khz area, only 15Khz and 31Khz ranges.

*mame does not always choose the "best" native res if there is not an exact match. you can set this manually.

[Charles4400]

So is it better to use a graphics card + soft 15khz VS. ArcadeVGA2 with this particular monitor then?

I don't have experience with soft 15 and just thought that ArcadeVGA2 was the only card which could give you true 15Khz/25Khz/31khz to a monitor and that soft 15 just 'emulates' it. Is this a wrong assumption?

BTW thanks EVERYONE for the replies and help, all this info helps greatly!!!

[Silver]

IF soft15Khz works with your gfx card, it is giving genuine 15Khz output. It will only work in windows (XP), not vista or anything else.

The arcadeVGA is a hardware solution guarenteed to work, with tweaked modes ready to go. You can generate the same modes with soft15Khz (if you have the right card) but will need to generate various settings yourself to get the same range....

[Charles4400]

Ahhh I see!

Is there a developers page for soft 15khz (are they planning a vista release?)

I couldn't find their main page.

Thanks for the info, it would seem that soft 15 + compatible graphics card would be a better solution for this specific monitor (well maybe not because I would be running Vista...but thats besides the fact !).

The Wiki says:
"It should work with any NVidia (ForceWare 66.93 and up), ATI (Catalyst 2.5 and up), ..."

Is it safe to assume then that it will work with all modern ATI graphics cards...or are there some common ones which it will not work with other than pre-Catalyst 2.5?

 

[Ummon]

Dude, look at the thread up top with it's name in the title (although a quick google brings it up. Perhaps you're expecting an english site). As well, my sig is your friend. And did you get that monitor from Banderson on Ebay?

[Silver]

The Wiki says:
"It should work with any NVidia (ForceWare 66.93 and up), ATI (Catalyst 2.5 and up), ..."

Is it safe to assume then that it will work with all modern ATI graphics cards...or are there some common ones which it will not work with other than pre-Catalyst 2.5?

I think it works with a wide range, although the newer cards can not create the very lowest resolutions easily. There are work arounds - creating custom resolutions with very very large sync width. I believe X800 and lower ATI cards do not have this problem.

[Jack Burton]

One thing to test: if your monitor has RGBHV BNC ports, try using that and see if you have any extra options in your onscreen menus.  My monitor has R, G, B drive settings when I connect via the BNC cables that are not available when using a standard VGA cable.


Also, soft 15khz installs several useful low resolutions, but even with it you will not be able to play every single game in native resolution.

For example, CPS2 games run at 384x224.  The closest resolution Soft 15khz has built in to this is 384x240, so you will have to resize your screen either with software, which is defeating the whole point, or with your monitor settings, which might not be able to stretch the image correctly. 

You can program soft 15khz for custom resolutions, but it is much easier to just use advancemame unless there is something in new versions of MAME that is neccesary for you.

In advancemame you can program the sync range for your monitor and it will automatically select the correct resolution for your game based on that range.  With my monitor I just go into settings and tell advancemame that my monitor can do 15.75khz only and 45-90hz. 

EDIT: changed to make resolutions correct.  Thanks Ummon

[Charles4400]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

As an update my computer hasnt arrived yet but its Vista so won't be able to try Soft 15 yet but will certainly look into Advancemame.

I had previously ordered the arcadevga card before this thread so will meddle with that once everything gets in.

But this thread gave me alot of options I would otherwise have not considered. Thanks Everyone 

I will give an update as soon as the rest of the setup comes in and let you all know how it goes!

[Ummon]

I don't know whether Advancemame is Vista compatible. I'd think not but never know. As well, it also depends on what version number Charles wants to use. Later than .106 and Advancemame's a no-go. And 384x240 is closer than 392x240. As per the Ultimarc monitor faq, close is good enough for many things, as long as there are more lines drawn vs less.

[Jack Burton]

I wonder, is there any visible difference in image between 224 res and 240 res if you use your monitor controls to stretch the 224 visible lines to fill the screen in the 240 res?  If there is, it is positively minute.

[Ummon]

Andy talks about exactly that in the Ultimarc monitor faq.

[Jack Burton]

yep, read about it today.

The funny thing is, that even though true arcade monitors could not do 224 lines at 60hz, a pc monitor can.  I have such a monitor, it scans at 45-90hz, but have never been able to run 266x224 resolutions.  I have tried programming it in powerstrip, but I don't think I have the knowledge to really get it right.

[Ummon]

From what I know, arcade monitors DO do 224 lines. Higher definition monitors can, too - with the provision that the signal is double-scan or double refresh (though this latter is not across the board for PC monitor specs).

[KissMyWookie]

I managed to win an XM2950 from eBay for $40.

Very pleased with it, though I think the 2nd focus pot on the H.drive transformer is dead - adjusting it does nothing and the corners of the screen are very out of focus.

Does anyone have a service manual (PDF) for the XM2950 ?  I contacted NEC, but they said they've purged that model from their database, due to it's age. ...shame it wasn't the XM2960 in the auction, but at least it was a good deal.

Steve

PS: I've been playing around with Soft-15kHz and advv from AdvanceMame (the advv and advcfg from the latest Windows zip file don't work - you have to find an older copy or use the ones from AdvanceMess for Windows - which is what I did).
I have managed to get the screen to display 320x224 and 320x240 modes, but you have to fine tune them so the modelines are both centered for the monitor ...the XM29 gives them both the same preset, so you can only adjust one of the resolutions to look perfect using the remote).

[Ummon]

Steve, great price. What was shipping?

I have almost always used generate_yclock, as Advancemame generally picks the best mode. Given the range of this monitor, that's what I suggest. There are a few exceptions, like Turf Masters, which for some reason advmame picks a 31khz/60hz mode, so I just put in

turfmast/display_mode standard_320x224

(no particular timings mode was needed) and it displayed just right.

As mentioned above, since the card's drivers aren't being adjusted in the OS, all the card's normal functions are available at desktop level - I always run my desktop as high as possible - and then when games are loaded, it automatically switches accordingly. Of course, the XM I have requires the remote to adjust and set geometry, which can be hard to find online, let alone for a decent price (I did). As for the difference between 320x224 and 320x240, it's dependent on the design, and apparently those share the same mode on this monitor. My Billabs mulitsync has separate modes for them (lucky me), but it's a trifle, as it means you should only have small spaces above and below the image. The overall geometry should be the same, and is on my analog monitors.

If one is using soft15, they then need to look through the thread (or maybe it's in the wiki) for the non-50hz SVGA, XGA, etc modes SS has included....or calculate them yourself and add them to either the custom31khz or usermodes files.

[KissMyWookie]

Steve, great price. What was shipping?

I picked it up, as they were only 45 minutes from where I live.

...as for the remote - it didn't come with one, but luckily I had a JP1 compatible remote that was being unused, so I made a quick parallel port interface and reprogrammed the remote to work with the XM29.

I know, I'm about as cheap as they get 

[SailorSat]

First On-Topic:

As for the higher resolutions on the XM29. Well you can add other "higher" resolutions by adding their modelines (there is a pretty simple generator at http://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl).



-----



Now lets go off-topic and get some light onto the 224/240 line modes...

Actually pretty much every arcade "resolution" at 60Hz outputs 262 lines.
Pretty simple mathematics -> 262 Lines "per Frame" multiplied by 60 Hz (Frames per Second) = 15.720 Hz or 15,7kHz.

The only difference between a 224 "active" line resolution and a 240 "active" line resoltution actually is the front/back porch, meaning "not used" lines which are usually black lines on most arcade games. The "sync" pulse each frame stays about the same for rather technical reasons.

Some games and several older home computers (Commodore 64 / Amiga) don't output "black" for the porches, but rather the current Background Color (like the light Blue on a Commodore 64).

Now actually one simple fact should be noted. Arcade cabinets (and their monitors) were NOT thought to switch the game (and hence the resolution) every 5 minutes. Sure there are several multi-game systems like the neogeo mvs, but they all output the same resolution.

What AdvanceMAME does is either enlarging the "sync pulse" or reducing the total visible lines per frame (262) by increasing the vertical refresh (60Hz).

If I would add a 224 line mode to my VGA card, it would be exactly the same modeline, except the "active" lines would be reduced from 240 to 224 (-16) and the front and back porch would be increased by 8 lines each.


So in the end it pretty much stays the same. Either MAME adds 8 lines "black" at the top and the bottom, or the VGA card does add them in the porches.
 

[KissMyWookie]

Since the XM29 uses the same preset for 320x224 modes, as it does for 320x240 (ie: only one user defined picture size/position can be saved for both modes) ... I've been working on a modeline which displays 320x224 edge to edge (with no border top or bottom) and at the correct vertical refresh rate of 59.185606Hz.

# Neo-Geo (and possibly Sega Mega-Drive too)
Modeline "320x224_NeoGeo" 6.1231 320 344 392 424 224 225 227 244 -hsync -vsync

It works perfectly on my XM2950.

Load a Mame game which uses one of the Soft-15kHz generated 320x240x60 modes ("Mile Miglia 2" works well) and size/center your screen, then save the user preset. Then (assuming you've already added the above modeline to your Soft-15kHz custom15kHz.txt file and rebooted) load a Neo-Geo game and it won't have any borders top or bottom and should not stutter - because the vertical refresh rate is exactly the same as the original console.

The mode is out of spec for arcade monitors (and the NTSC specification), but since we're using it on a multisync monitor, it works fine.

Steve

[Ummon]

Cool. Perhaps that's what Advancemame is doing, vs my monitor having separate modes for them. I'll check.

SS: I thought, and it seems to me, that Advancemame preserves refresh.

[KissMyWookie]

What AdvanceMAME does is either enlarging the "sync pulse" or reducing the total visible lines per frame (262) by increasing the vertical refresh (60Hz).

If I would add a 224 line mode to my VGA card, it would be exactly the same modeline, except the "active" lines would be reduced from 240 to 224 (-16) and the front and back porch would be increased by 8 lines each.

You don't have to increase the vertical refresh rate to reduce the total number of lines - by adjusting the pixel clock, you can bring the refresh rate back to 60Hz (or whatever you wish) and still have less total lines (and the vertical front and back porch don't have to pad the total number of lines to 262). If you do this, the visible lines take up more height on the display - which is how I made my 320x224x59.185606Hz modeline.

I doubt that an arcade CGA monitor would be able to sync to such a modeline, but it works well on a multisync monitor.

Steve

[Silver]

Does anyone have a service manual (PDF) for the XM2950 ?  I contacted NEC, but they said they've purged that model from their database, due to it's age. ...shame it wasn't the XM2960 in the auction, but at least it was a good deal.

Actually I think I do. It's either for the 2950 or the 2960, I'll have to check when I'm off work.

If memory serves - I've had both a 2950 and 2960 at various times, only one of them does the full scan range of 15Khz-48Khz. One of them won't do the 25Khz area - jumps up to 31Khz. (I think the 2960 won't do 25Khz native)

I'll dig out the service manual anyway (PDF form)

[Ummon]

For specs, check here:

http://www.maland.com/extron/download/files/crossref/direct-view-display-xref.pdf  (I think this is in the wiki.)


For manuals, check the other thread here asking for them.

[KissMyWookie]

Does anyone have a service manual (PDF) for the XM2950 ?  I contacted NEC, but they said they've purged that model from their database, due to it's age. ...shame it wasn't the XM2960 in the auction, but at least it was a good deal.

Actually I think I do. It's either for the 2950 or the 2960, I'll have to check when I'm off work.

If memory serves - I've had both a 2950 and 2960 at various times, only one of them does the full scan range of 15Khz-48Khz. One of them won't do the 25Khz area - jumps up to 31Khz. (I think the 2960 won't do 25Khz native)

I'll dig out the service manual anyway (PDF form)

Great, I'll keep my fingers crossed 

Thanks.

Steve

PS: Ummon - the manuals you posted are for the XM2960 type chassis, which is a different model and appears to be microprocessor based. (Those are the ones which have a sophisticated On-Screen Menu setup, but can't do 25kHz).

[Silver]

Checking some old emails, the service manual I have is for the 2960G.

Still interested?

Incidentally, it appears you can buy the 2950 service manual for $14.99 here:
http://www.manuals-in-pdf.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=xm-2950+service+manual&amp;forward=plist

(Just found it googling, not tested etc..)

[KissMyWookie]

Checking some old emails, the service manual I have is for the 2960G.

Still interested?

Thanks, but that's a different chassis - it's microprocessor based and has On-Screen Menus to adjust geometry, convergence etc.  (That's the one which can't do 25kHz).

[wolfsoft]

Greetings NEC XM29 Owners,

I am a happy owner too :-)

Have somebody the servicemanual for the xm29?
Or the "normal" documentation.
Please post it if possible

Thanks

[wolfsoft]

today I done a repair of a dead 2950G. It didn't work anymore. No Powerup after Powerpress, nothing.
I was looking in the service manual.
You can download it here: http://blog.wolfsoft.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/XM2950G_SM_NEC.pdf
And found a defective Relais in the powersupply.

Look here for details:
//http://blog.wolfsoft.de/?cat=12

[KissMyWookie]

today I done a repair of a dead 2950G. It didn't work anymore. No Powerup after Powerpress, nothing.
I was looking in the service manual.
You can download it here: http://blog.wolfsoft.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/XM2950G_SM_NEC.pdf
And found a defective Relais in the powersupply.

Look here for details:
//http://blog.wolfsoft.de/?cat=12

My 2950G quit in November. For the previous month or two, it would make an occasional ping sound (like a high tensile wire getting flicked) which was accompanied by a horizontal shift of a few lines in the picture. Finally, while I was using it, there was a loud pop and the monitor shutdown altogether. When I tried to turn it back on, the power led flashed.

Any ideas what the problem is with it? ...With the pop I was suspecting a capacitor, but don't know what would've caused the pinging sound.

I haven't had a chance to open it up yet, as I've been working on remodeling the living room for the past 5 months.

Also, I don't have the other part of the service manual (the PG-2740 part that you're told to refer to), so don't have any troubleshooting guide - or the setup guide (for when I eventually get it going again).

[ARTIFACT]

Hey guys

old thread, but I need to know something.
today I bought an XM29

I am getting an ATI card so I can install all the 15Khz (etc) resolutions (my current card is an Nvidia 9800 GT which has the issue of not outputting anything lower than 640x480).

My question is, can I use Mame (newer), rather than Advancemame (which is old), to display each game in their native resolutions?

Maybe there is a way to apply an advancemame-like feature via a "diff" and compile my own Mame?

Thank you!

(EDIT: is this basically what I am asking for? http://mame.groovy.org/WindowsATIDrivers/ )

[dmarcum99]

Grab a ATI 4000 series video card and go with groovymame.....without hesitation. 

Groovymame has done what soft15khz has been doing and evolved to a much better performing option.  While soft15khz gets you to native resolutions, you still have hitching/tearing from the v. refresh rates not being perfect.  Groovymame takes your monitor specs (you'd select the D9800 settings) and dials in every game to the native res and refresh rate.  After a little screen orientation for the cga/ega/vga games...you're set....NO MORE ADJUSTMENTS!!

Play a scrolling game like Vanguard or Scramble...with the other alternatives, you'll get the hitches, much like the scrolling in MK when the faces roll downward.  With Groovymame....smooth like butter.  As long as your PC is strong enought o run the games at 100% no sound stutters either.  I was once a soft15khz/Hyperspin user, now I'm on the liveCD.  As soon as Hyperspin 2 comes out, I may convert to the windows version of Groovymame.

I am running the same monitor, but I'm using the groovymame live-cd and love it!!  Others are using groovymame in windows with Hyperspin with great results as well.

[Paradroid]

With Groovymame....smooth like butter.

Sure is! Once you see perfect GroovyMAME scrolling in action you won't be able to go back.

[Jack Burton]

Two quick questions since people in this thread might know:


1.  Is groovymame compatible with Nvidia graphics cards?

2.  Can it be programmed to enable double refresh modes?  As in using a high-end CRT PC monitor to play 240p games in native resolution at 120hz. 

[Calamity]

1.  Is groovymame compatible with Nvidia graphics cards?

Not yet, possibly at some point via Powerstrip. It's targeted to ATI cards. Check this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=113017.0

2.  Can it be programmed to enable double refresh modes?  As in using a high-end CRT PC monitor to play 240p games in native resolution at 120hz. 

Well I know it can because I tested it (120 Hz, real scan lines at 240p in a CRT PC monitor), but it's really tricky to set it up to do that as it is now. I'm planning to add support for double refresh modes in next release.

[Gray_Area]

2.  Can it be programmed to enable double refresh modes?  As in using a high-end CRT PC monitor to play 240p games in native resolution at 120hz. 

I wouldn't bother, given HLSL.

[Jack Burton]

2.  Can it be programmed to enable double refresh modes?  As in using a high-end CRT PC monitor to play 240p games in native resolution at 120hz. 

I wouldn't bother, given HLSL.

The monitor I would be using is the one I reviewed here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116483.0

It has a .28mm dot pitch and uses dot triads in a shadow mask instead of an aperature grill like many similar models.  Using Soft 15khz and custom modes I've been able to get a very nice arcade-like picture out of it.  If I could get better scrolling with groovymame, then that would just be gravy. 

[Gray_Area]

2.  Can it be programmed to enable double refresh modes?  As in using a high-end CRT PC monitor to play 240p games in native resolution at 120hz.  

I wouldn't bother, given HLSL.

The monitor I would be using is the one I reviewed here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116483.0

It has a .28mm dot pitch and uses dot triads in a shadow mask instead of an aperature grill like many similar models.  Using Soft 15khz and custom modes I've been able to get a very nice arcade-like picture out of it.  If I could get better scrolling with groovymame, then that would just be gravy.  

I'd like to see it. Maybe you could take some pictures now?

Still. Since it's not a digital multisync, I recommed HLSL.