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Author Topic: There is no gas shortage  (Read 9996 times)

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RayB

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NO MORE!!

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 01:20:13 pm »
No gas shortage, but prices keep increasing, and now they're needlessly tapping into food supplies!

Damn right. The use of Ethanol in gasoline is a ---gosh-darn--- joke.

I'm still disappointed by just how many brain dead people out there are convinced that Ethanol is the answer (or boosts, whatever the case may be) to petroleum fuel.

I'm stunned by how few people actually sit down and consider the following. That the growing, processing and shipment of crude ethanol (corn) consumes more energy than the total energy that a gallon of ethanol can ever put out. Ethanol doesn't gain us energy or even give us zero sum energy, it's a negative drain on our total energy needs.

Consider also that corn lobbyists is one of the primary reasons why nearly all of our nations food utilizes high fructose corn syrup, even in foods that have no business utilizing such a sweetener, and sugar tarrifs make up a too large portion of the cost of cane and beet sugars in the US.

To make matters even worse, it's expected corn growers are going to plant fewer acres of corn than last year, citing the higher costs of growing said corn (DUH!) and the higher prices per bushel. Farmers don't want to flood the market with corn and drive down the prices. WTF?

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 01:30:14 pm »
I keep telling myself that the "gas shortage" is a clever way to manipulate people into moving on to vehicles that do not rely on oil-based gasoline, and in turn America would not need to rely so heavily on ties to the Middle East. In which case I can tolerate this manipulation. We do need to move away from gasoline! But Ethanol is not the answer.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 01:34:56 pm »
I caught a fox news show the other day touting the air car.  There was a guy from Popular Mechanics who said it wasn't a hoax.  The thing will probably cost 80 grand to buy, but the technology is out there.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 01:42:29 pm »
Here is an interesting read for you:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,538412,00.html


There is a possibility that your own retirement investments have a stake in oil commodities.

patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 01:44:00 pm »
He might have a point, but an article like that without charts actually backing up his claims is useless. He could just arbitrarily pick two extremes and make a point that sounds a lot more dramatic than it actually is.

BTW if they make ethanol from algea there wouldn't be so much of a problem

BBTW why is this in EE and not in PnR?
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knave

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 02:00:16 pm »
Who cares about anything else...The air engine is damn cool.  I want one now.  That second one would perhaps fit nicely on a vespa as long as there is room for a tank.

That would be cool.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 02:19:00 pm »
Those air engines are way cool.  I especially like the approach taken by the guy in australia; rather than adapting a piston engine to air, devise an even more efficient model not constrained by previous design.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 04:00:26 pm »
BTW if they make ethanol from algea there wouldn't be so much of a problem

Algae is potentially a better solution than that of corn. However, care must be taken to ensure that the production avoids a negative return on the energy expended. In short, it doesn't make sense to expend more energy (gas, diesel, oil) to produce an alternate fuel intended as a direct replacement to existing fuels.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 04:23:33 pm »
Algae is used to produce Biodiesel mainly. I don't think it is being developed as a gasoline substitute.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 04:31:50 pm »
Algae is used to produce Biodiesel mainly. I don't think it is being developed as a gasoline substitute.
They use algae for both:
Pond-Powered Biofuels: Turning Algae into America's New Energy

Quote
Strains of algae high in carbohydrates as well as oils produce starches that can be separated and fermented into ethanol; the remaining proteins can be turned into animal grains. GreenFuel hopes its pilot plant will see initial yields of 8000 gallons of biodiesel and 5000 gallons of ethanol per acre of algae.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2008, 06:11:45 pm »
Algae is potentially a better solution than that of corn. However, care must be taken to ensure that the production avoids a negative return on the energy expended. In short, it doesn't make sense to expend more energy (gas, diesel, oil) to produce an alternate fuel intended as a direct replacement to existing fuels.

Thanks, Captain Obvious.  Everyone knows that.

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protokatie

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 10:01:54 pm »
I saw the thing on the air powered car a few years ago, and it seemed at the same level of development. Hopefully it isnt a pipe dream that ran out of funding (or worse, a fatal flaw)


Quote
BBTW why is this in EE and not in PnR?

Speaking of PnR, how come I can never access that forum? It says it is unavailable all the time... Do I have to have a minimum post count or something?
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 10:28:35 pm »
Quote
BBTW why is this in EE and not in PnR?

Speaking of PnR, how come I can never access that forum? It says it is unavailable all the time... Do I have to have a minimum post count or something?

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69493.0

protokatie

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 11:17:54 pm »
Quote
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69493.0

Ahh thanx. I have read the rules, but I DID defeat the profanity censor once, as it prevented me from saying something simple (It was about me, not a flame). So I prolly wont be given access... Oh well...

(The word I used turns into smurfy here, and that didnt convey the meaning in the proper manner, esp since it wasnt a happy form of smurfy.. It was a bad one about my life, and anything about smurfs didnt fit)
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danny_galaga

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2008, 02:00:45 am »
Those air engines are way cool.  I especially like the approach taken by the guy in australia; rather than adapting a piston engine to air, devise an even more efficient model not constrained by previous design.

are you guys talking about compressed air vehicles? nothing amazing about the technology. a company in india is set to start making these cars next year. i think its a good thing since the recharge time is comparable to filling up a tank of petrol whereas my favourite alternate (electric) still takes hours to charge up.

the compressed cars also have a little compressor on board too so you can recharge it overnight. also since the 'gas' stations need to filter the air they are compressing, the net result of operating the car is slightly cleaner air (",)

compressed air, like electric is great because it doesnt depend on any one type of energy production. could be nuclear, coal, hydro, wind, solar or whatever.

i still like EV's though because each part is upgradable. yuo can have a super efficient '57 chevy running EV if you wanted (",) . with compressed air though, you have to build the car around the technology.

still, whichever of those two becomes popular- bring em on!



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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2008, 02:40:00 am »
The US amil in Southern California used to have electric vans to do their deliveries.  We are talking like 20 or more years ago.  Now they are run on Natural Gas.  Why the major leap backward?
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2008, 02:47:02 am »
Quote
The US amil in Southern California used to have electric vans to do their deliveries.  We are talking like 20 or more years ago.  Now they are run on Natural Gas.  Why the major leap backward?




Cost. Electric isnt that cheap, the cost of electricity isnt the problem: Batteries and whatnot is. Also, NG powered vehicles are underpowered (Portland maine: talked with the bus drivers and they said it sucked) but electric power is even worse: IE no pickup)

Until things change: Electric powered vehicles arent a solution at all. (Around here, we may as well call them coal powered, since that is how we get our electricity)
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danny_galaga

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2008, 03:44:28 am »


Until things change: Electric powered vehicles arent a solution at all. (Around here, we may as well call them coal powered, since that is how we get our electricity)

i disagree. from that point of view, the only solution is no cars at all. at least electric (and compressed air) arent tied to any one energy source. what other possible method of having a car can improve on that? they would all be some alternative 'fuel'. but then that is the only thing you can run that car on. i really think if we are going to continue having cars then they must not rely on any one source...


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shmokes

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2008, 10:06:05 am »

. . . so I prolly wont be given access... Oh well...


Um . . . trust me, the bar is pretty low.  Just send Saint a PM and he'll give you access.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2008, 05:15:12 am »
Coal power runs this country - plain and simple. What is really crappy is that the Fed is spending next to zero dollars on clean coal technology, all the while that "plug-in-electrics" are being pushed for.

Hello people, the extra load to power electric or air cars isn't gonna magically appear from outer space. Our electric grid is already strained at the outer limits of California and New York. We will need to build our infrastructure big time in coal fired plants, and also nuclear plants.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2008, 07:27:27 am »

solar is getting a bad deal in r & d at the moment. even now, you can generate enough power from the top of your roof to supply your whole house. the trick is to make it cheaper to make the cells. if many more people have solar houses- no extra drain on power grid...


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patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2008, 11:15:52 am »
Coal power runs this country - plain and simple. What is really crappy is that the Fed is spending next to zero dollars on clean coal technology, all the while that "plug-in-electrics" are being pushed for.

Hello people, the extra load to power electric or air cars isn't gonna magically appear from outer space. Our electric grid is already strained at the outer limits of California and New York. We will need to build our infrastructure big time in coal fired plants, and also nuclear plants.
Well the cool thing is that they use a coal plant to feed the algae (the CO2 that is) I thought that was pretty clever. Obviously eventually the CO2 will end up in the atmosphere anyway (when you burn the biofuel/ethanol), but at least it gets used twice.

Electric cars would mostly charge at night, so then they wouldn't add so much to the maximum strain on the grid (which occurs during the day). In fact it would mean that the plants could keep running at a more steady power level all day.

More importantly, a car engine is incredibly inefficient. IIRC it only converts about 30% of the energy into motion (and then the Gasoline needs to be refined first too which costs a lot of energy and pollution as well). A proper energy plant gets closer to 90%. So that means it would use only a third of the resources. Then the emissions of a power plant are a lot easier (more economical) to clean too. So the total pollution coming from the same energy used by an electric car is a lot less than with a gasoline powered car.

An electric car really is a lot better for the environment. It uses less resources and creates less pollution. A lot less.

At least up to the point where the batteries need to be replaced. Somehow I always have the feeling that it can never be good for the environment to have tons of broken batteries left over. They are full of harmful chemicals. Did they figure out something to fix that problem already?
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patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2008, 11:22:07 am »

solar is getting a bad deal in r & d at the moment. even now, you can generate enough power from the top of your roof to supply your whole house. the trick is to make it cheaper to make the cells. if many more people have solar houses- no extra drain on power grid...
Yeah, the research seems more interested in increasing efficiency of the cells rather than on increasing production and lowering prices. They really are only seem to be looking at military (and space) applications rather than for clean energy on earth. If we would all just cover our roof in cheap low efficiency cells then it would save a huge amount of oil/coal etc.
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patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2008, 01:07:07 pm »
yeah, the research seems more interested in increasing efficiency of the cells rather than on increasing production and lowering prices. They really are only seem to be looking at military (and space) applications rather than for clean energy on earth. If we would all just cover our roof in cheap low efficiency cells then it would save a huge amount of oil/coal etc.

Because there's a break even point on solar cell efficiency before it becomes economically feasible.  And it hasn't been reached.  Once we get there, we can figure out the manufacturing.
The point is that they are mostly ( irtually exclusively) researching high efficiency cells. Those will be very hard to make cheap. There are much cheaper and simpler alternatives possible, but the space/military researchers obviously don't care, because they don't need that. Yield per weight and volume are much more important to them.

It's not so much, first we get them refined and then we make it cheaper. You need to research in a completely different direction to make them cheaper. You need to use cheaper materials.

It's like using gold for heat insulation (as they do in space applications). You can research how to improve that to the maximum and then start researching how to make it cheaper. Reality is that that will never yield a product for domestic use.
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shmokes

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2008, 01:27:17 pm »
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2008, 08:55:37 am »
Electric cars would mostly charge at night, so then they wouldn't add so much to the maximum strain on the grid (which occurs during the day).

That's not true here.  Over the summer almost all of the strain is at night when people are at home and turn on their TV, AC, computers, etc.  There is far less power grid traffic during the day when people are at work.  Companies don't turn things off at night anymore the way they used to.

shmokes, that home solar grid is great in theory but it doesn't work in practice.  Not yet and probably not for quite a while.  The panels are not reliable enough - many people who try give up inside of a year because they either spend too much time maintaining the "once and done" hardware or they spend too much money paying someone else to maintain it.  It isn't a whole lot better now than it was during the last energy crisis.  There are still plenty of houses here with a solar array on the roof from 30 years ago - arrays that never came close to breaking even then and were so expensive to even dispose of that they are still sitting there.  The technology is better now but still not nearly good enough to be the positive sum equation the hype claims.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 08:59:06 am by ChadTower »

patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2008, 09:48:41 am »
Electric cars would mostly charge at night, so then they wouldn't add so much to the maximum strain on the grid (which occurs during the day).

That's not true here.  Over the summer almost all of the strain is at night when people are at home and turn on their TV, AC, computers, etc.  There is far less power grid traffic during the day when people are at work.  Companies don't turn things off at night anymore the way they used to.
There are always peak and off-peak hours. Obviously the load will be lower when during the night most of the TV's, computers, lights and AC's go off (Or don't work as hard because it's the right temperature anyway). My company makes and runs a website for an energy news agency. We report the Dutch wholesale purchase prices for electric power. We show both the peak and off-peak price index. Peak is between 8AM and 11PM.

I checked some hourly average load charts for the US and they look pretty similar. Obviously in the hotter parts of the US the summer peak is a lot higher (with the highest peak between 2PM and 6PM), but still the load charts show that the load around 22:00 is about 30% to 50% lower than the maximum load and stays low till 8 or 9AM.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 09:50:18 am by patrickl »
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patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2008, 10:32:31 am »
Also, big things are happening in solar research these days, especially thanks to nano tech.

Dude, you really gotta get off my back lately.

Yes, interesting things are happening, but, so far, nobody's figured out how to do large scale manufacturing of anything that's economically worthwhile.  There's been "promising" things developing for 30+ years, wake us up when there's something tangible.
Dude you are really asking for it.

The argument put forth by Danny and myself was that research money is not used towards finding cheap and mass produceable solar cells.

You claim that this is not true because they are working on higher yield and willmakes those cheaper later.

I say that the current cells will never be made cheap (because of limited resources and corresponding high costs of these resources) and Shmokes demonstrates that there are lots of other venues open to research (for cheaper more mass produceable cells).

Then you claim that there are no results shown for those suggested technologies.

Seriously! That's just the point we were making  ::)
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patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2008, 11:04:02 am »
Seriously! That's just the point we were making  ::)

The point you're making is that nobody is researching solar cells but that people are researching solar cells?

 :dizzy:

That they are not researching solar cells outside of military and space applications
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2008, 11:11:22 am »
The simple fact that it is being researched for space and military means the consumer market will eventually see progress. They'll research a whole slew of possibilities, abandon them, then a private firm will pick up where they left off and develop for consumer use.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2008, 11:15:37 am »

There are private firms working on it.  I don't have time to seek out urls right now but I've read several articles on private sector advances in the cost/production ratio of solar cells in the past couple of years.  There is a slowly growing movement building to use the "useless" Nevada deserts as massive solar farms that, with statistically credible solar cell advances in the next ten years, could be breaking even and powering a substantial double digit percentage of the US grid within the next 30 years.

shardian

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2008, 11:21:46 am »

There are private firms working on it.  I don't have time to seek out urls right now but I've read several articles on private sector advances in the cost/production ratio of solar cells in the past couple of years.  There is a slowly growing movement building to use the "useless" Nevada deserts as massive solar farms that, with statistically credible solar cell advances in the next ten years, could be breaking even and powering a substantial double digit percentage of the US grid within the next 30 years.

Environmentalists will never let that happen.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2008, 11:24:57 am »

Ironic, isn't it?  Which is more important, the local flora and fauna or global warming?  They can't have it all.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2008, 11:36:42 am »
The simple fact that it is being researched for space and military means the consumer market will eventually see progress. They'll research a whole slew of possibilities, abandon them, then a private firm will pick up where they left off and develop for consumer use.
No, they are researching in a completely different directionm. Silicon based solar cells will never be the answer for domestic use.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2008, 11:38:39 am »

There are private firms working on it.  I don't have time to seek out urls right now but I've read several articles on private sector advances in the cost/production ratio of solar cells in the past couple of years. 
Yes, Shmokes linked to these articles a few posts up.

The point is that for that type of research only a very limited budget is available.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2008, 11:49:05 am »

Those are not all of the articles.  There are others, you know.   ;D

There are plenty of dollars being put into this.  Just because there is not an unlimited federal money bucket doesn't mean it isn't happening.  It is happening at the usual rate of private sector advancement.


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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2008, 01:48:33 pm »
Dude's,

I've been driving this the last couple of years. Only needs a bit of coke (and the tin) to run for days....





shardian

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2008, 02:21:45 pm »
Dude's,

I've been driving this the last couple of years. Only needs a bit of coke (and the tin) to run for days....





That's impressive, considering you don't have a Mr. Fusion unit on there. ;D

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2008, 05:33:57 pm »
Yeah the seller told me about that he thought it looked a bit stupid and moved it to the handglove compartment......














Did I get away with that ?  :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


I am SO embarrassed....

shmokes

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2008, 08:11:13 pm »

Dude, you really gotta get off my back lately.


Um . . . sorry.  That's just me.  I don't even know what you're talking about.  The only other thread I can even think of that I'm talking to you in is the one in which you jumped on me about Grim Fandango.  If that's the only thread we're talking in, then I REALLY don't know what you're talking about.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2008, 08:18:50 pm »

Environmentalists will never let that happen.

LMAO.  You, sir, have never been to the Nevada desert.   :laugh2:

Anyway, environmentalists are fully aware that the world is faced with choices, and going without power isn't one of them.  Choosing between a solar farm in the Nevada desert, and a coal plant anywhere, or a dam anywhere, or a nuclear plant anywhere, is an easy choice to make. 
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2008, 08:24:19 pm »
If not simply on the buildings, then there must be some space available in the Sahara. Now wouldn't that be cool if we all got dependent on the electric power coming from the Sahara.
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shmokes

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2008, 08:48:45 pm »
The Sahara would be no good.  Every time there was a wind storm the solar panels would be buried under feet of sand.   ;D
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2008, 09:06:16 pm »
Hmm could be.

I wish they would find a way to make electricity from rain. The Netherlands would start making some serious money then  :P

I looked into getting solar panels for my new house. There is a new subsidising action going on in the Netherlands, but even after subsidies it's still economically disappointing. A standard installation would be about 3000 euro giving a 100 euro savings per year. There would be a 600 euro subsidy so it would take 24 years to break even (if prices don't rise). With a solar heater it was even worse (50 euro savings per year on a 2000 to 3000 investment). Other problem is that my biggest roof surface is facing north so it wouldn't work anyway. Still, I wasn't really impressed with the economical savings of current commercial solutions.
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shmokes

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2008, 11:19:33 pm »

I wish they would find a way to make electricity from rain. The Netherlands would start making some serious money then  :P


Wish granted . . . sort of   ;D
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2008, 02:15:31 am »
solar hot water is very popular here (actually i think it was invented here, but i could be wrong). in darwin, where im from, our house had a very early hot water system. when we bought the place, the electrical booster was dead. no matter. theres so much sun in darwin that we never bothered fixing it! the only time its really cloudy there (wet season) is also the hottest time of the year so luke warm water for a shower was more than enough   :D

my sister wants to get solar electricity for our house, but id rather wait until she buys my half of the house (which has just been evaluated at $520,000. woot!) and then she can do what she wants  ;D


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ChadTower

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2008, 08:57:51 am »

How much geothermal power gets harnessed in Australia?  I seem to remember reading it's a good place for that too.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2008, 09:55:16 am »

Just came across this:  electricity via rice plants.  That would sure be useful in China.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2008, 11:22:24 pm »
Nuclear power is the safest, cheapest power source we have that makes real actual power.

Not to mention the fact that they already built the facility to hold about 1000 years worth of the nuclear waste.


Environmentalists will never let that happen.

LMAO.  You, sir, have never been to the Nevada desert.   :laugh2:

Anyway, environmentalists are fully aware that the world is faced with choices, and going without power isn't one of them.  Choosing between a solar farm in the Nevada desert, and a coal plant anywhere, or a dam anywhere, or a nuclear plant anywhere, is an easy choice to make. 
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2008, 11:27:55 pm »
A facility that they're currently unable to use, if I'm not mistaken.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2008, 12:27:12 am »
Yes, due to alarmist environmentalists pushing legislation that actually hurts more than it helps.

See also the endangered species act and recycling (yup, recycling is harmful to the environment).

When push comes to shove and we run out of options then there will be reactors going up all over the place. We could build enough reactors to supply the entire energy need of America (including transport). Only reason it isn't happening now is that people have been lied to about the so-called dangers of nuclear power (which is safer, cleaner and cleaner than coal, oil, natural gas, and basically everything else that isn't wind).

A facility that they're currently unable to use, if I'm not mistaken.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2008, 02:22:20 am »

How much geothermal power gets harnessed in Australia?  I seem to remember reading it's a good place for that too.

iceland. thats where its at. we have sun...


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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2008, 08:54:07 am »

You should try two things:  dingos and cane toads.  Put dingos on treadmills and maybe burn the toads for fuel.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2008, 10:05:32 am »

You should try two things:  dingos and cane toads.  Put dingos on treadmills and maybe burn the toads for fuel.

Nah, just lick the toads and noone will care that they have no power.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2008, 10:07:55 am »

Who wants to lick a toad bigger than your head?  The high can't be that good.

And how big are those toads once you're high?   :laugh2:

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2008, 01:39:48 pm »
BBTW why is this in EE and not in PnR?
To answer your question, I don't appear to have access to PnR. In fact, it doesn't even appear in the list of forums.
NO MORE!!

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2008, 02:50:52 pm »
To answer your question, I don't appear to have access to PnR. In fact, it doesn't even appear in the list of forums.

Lucky you.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2008, 04:02:10 pm »
BBTW why is this in EE and not in PnR?
To answer your question, I don't appear to have access to PnR. In fact, it doesn't even appear in the list of forums.


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Ed_McCarron

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2008, 04:29:37 pm »
BBTW why is this in EE and not in PnR?
To answer your question, I don't appear to have access to PnR. In fact, it doesn't even appear in the list of forums.


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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2008, 06:31:38 pm »
Yes, due to alarmist environmentalists pushing legislation that actually hurts more than it helps.

See also the endangered species act and recycling (yup, recycling is harmful to the environment).

When push comes to shove and we run out of options then there will be reactors going up all over the place. We could build enough reactors to supply the entire energy need of America (including transport). Only reason it isn't happening now is that people have been lied to about the so-called dangers of nuclear power (which is safer, cleaner and cleaner than coal, oil, natural gas, and basically everything else that isn't wind).

A facility that they're currently unable to use, if I'm not mistaken.
Safer ? Tell that to the people in Chernobyl !

The only safe nuclear power is fusion. And we were told 20 years ago that they would have it "fixed" in about 20 years......
Well, I don't see it ever happening.

But I think you're right, the only and last real option will be nuclear power in the end.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2008, 06:33:09 pm »
Safer ? Tell that to the people in Chernobyl !

If they listen.


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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2008, 06:39:48 pm »
Where's my LCD top-gun.....gotta shoot those ---daisies--- ! :)

Great pic just before bed-time :P


O, and I forgot to mention that Uranium is running out as well.......

Let's face it. We're doomed one way or the other. Better enjoy ourselves as long as it lasts......now, let me fire up that 110 W Centipede....

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2008, 07:55:09 pm »
Yes, due to alarmist environmentalists pushing legislation that actually hurts more than it helps.

See also the endangered species act and recycling (yup, recycling is harmful to the environment).

When push comes to shove and we run out of options then there will be reactors going up all over the place. We could build enough reactors to supply the entire energy need of America (including transport). Only reason it isn't happening now is that people have been lied to about the so-called dangers of nuclear power (which is safer, cleaner and cleaner than coal, oil, natural gas, and basically everything else that isn't wind).

A facility that they're currently unable to use, if I'm not mistaken.

 :blah:
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2008, 10:18:04 pm »
O, and I forgot to mention that Uranium is running out as well.......

So is helium.  Wait'll theres no party balloons and watch the panic.
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patrickl

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2008, 04:28:53 am »
O, and I forgot to mention that Uranium is running out as well.......
Actually, a few years ago they figured out that there is enough Uranium for hundreds if not thousands of years.

But indeed where is the fusion they were so close on getting to work? Things are awfully quiet on that front.
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Ed_McCarron

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2008, 04:15:33 pm »
But indeed where is the fusion they were so close on getting to work? Things are awfully quiet on that front.

Works in micro scale.  Doesn't scale up so well.

Give it time.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2008, 01:21:26 am »
But indeed where is the fusion they were so close on getting to work? Things are awfully quiet on that front.

Works in micro scale.  Doesn't scale up so well.

Give it time.

waddaya talkin 'bout? works perfectly when scaled up  ;D



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Level42

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2008, 01:45:38 am »
That's not fusion.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2008, 03:29:49 am »

Yes, Chernobyl was rather sucktastic. Also note that was an early type reactor mismanaged and misdesigned in Russia. America doesn't build or use those type of plants, and Russia has revamped that style.

Even including Chernobyl and only including the time period that includes all the nuclear incidents (1970-1992), nuclear power is 10 times safer than natural gas, 42 times safer than coal, and 110 times safer than hydroelectric power. If you only do 1993 to present than the safety record shoots through the roof into the thousands, as there haven't really been any nuclear deaths since then.

If 3 mile island happened once every 2 months and you lived there you would get the same radiation as everyone living in Denver just gets from the altitude.

Research it, there isn't a power source safer than nuclear power. Even wind power is much, much more dangerous (3504 deaths per terawatt year compared to 8 deaths per terawatt year for nuclear. (I guessed wrong earlier when I thought wind was safe). Even rooftop solar cells are more dangerous (these tend to kill people during installation).

Even if we had a chernobyl every single year it would still be safer than every other alternative.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=16809

http://www.uic.com.au/nip14.htm


Yes, due to alarmist environmentalists pushing legislation that actually hurts more than it helps.

See also the endangered species act and recycling (yup, recycling is harmful to the environment).

When push comes to shove and we run out of options then there will be reactors going up all over the place. We could build enough reactors to supply the entire energy need of America (including transport). Only reason it isn't happening now is that people have been lied to about the so-called dangers of nuclear power (which is safer, cleaner and cleaner than coal, oil, natural gas, and basically everything else that isn't wind).

A facility that they're currently unable to use, if I'm not mistaken.
Safer ? Tell that to the people in Chernobyl !

The only safe nuclear power is fusion. And we were told 20 years ago that they would have it "fixed" in about 20 years......
Well, I don't see it ever happening.

But I think you're right, the only and last real option will be nuclear power in the end.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2008, 05:02:26 am »
That's not fusion.
Why not? You don't count the fusion in a hydrogen bomb as fusion?

BTW I also loved the hype over cold fusion a few decades ago. Would be cool if that really worked, but then if pigs could fly ...
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2008, 11:04:07 am »
Yeah, statistics are nice, tell that to the people who were in the area.......

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2008, 02:14:31 pm »
You get your facts from rock concerts? wtf..

Do you know how many people died from the 3-mile island incident? 0
Did you know one of the reactors is still operating? People aren't turning green from working there.

People who fight what "might" happen with nuclear reactors are ignoring the fact that the alternative is spewing ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- into the atmosphere that we ALL breathe. How about we just learn from 3-mile, Chernobyl, and Monju, and build them safe with lots of redundancies. Then we can stop spewing pollution into the air we breathe.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2008, 02:23:15 pm »
THAT is not a rock concert.  LMAO.  I have seen many rock concerts, and they aren't like that.  Performance art, maybe.  But a rock concert?  I don't think so.   ;D
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2008, 02:36:55 pm »
You get your facts from rock concerts? wtf..
Of course not, this was just an illustration (and a great song). Geez, loosen up guys...

Murphy's law. What can go wrong will go wrong.

And this is where I stop, for the same reason that I don't want access to the politics section :)


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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2008, 02:38:06 pm »
THAT is not a rock concert.  LMAO.  I have seen many rock concerts, and they aren't like that.  Performance art, maybe.  But a rock concert?  I don't think so.   ;D
You obviously don't "get" Kraftwerk. I prefer this over any "rock" concert anytime. Tastes differ.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2008, 05:24:49 pm »
I may or may not get Kraftwerk, but honestly, I think we can both agree that a Kraftwerk performance is not a rock concert any more than the NY Philharmonic Orchestra puts on a rock concert.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2008, 05:26:30 pm »
That's not fusion.
Why not? You don't count the fusion in a hydrogen bomb as fusion?

BTW I also loved the hype over cold fusion a few decades ago. Would be cool if that really worked, but then if pigs could fly ...

The reaction in a nuclear bomb or power plant is fission...not fusion...to make sure I wasn't wrong

Fission:  A nuclear reaction in which an atomic nucleus splits into fragments, usually two fragments of comparable mass.

vs.

Fusion:  The process whereby the nuclei of lighter elements, especially the isotopes of hydrogen (deuterium and tritium ) combine to form the nucleus of a heavier element accompanied by the release of substantial amounts of energy.

Fusion is how the sun generates heat and light.

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2008, 05:46:50 pm »
I may or may not get Kraftwerk, but honestly, I think we can both agree that a Kraftwerk performance is not a rock concert any more than the NY Philharmonic Orchestra puts on a rock concert.
Agreed. Did you ever see the part where they let the robots do the actual performance ? :D

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2008, 05:53:11 pm »
That's not fusion.
Why not? You don't count the fusion in a hydrogen bomb as fusion?

BTW I also loved the hype over cold fusion a few decades ago. Would be cool if that really worked, but then if pigs could fly ...

The reaction in a nuclear bomb or power plant is fission...not fusion...to make sure I wasn't wrong
The picture is of the explosion of a hydrogen bomb. That's fusion. That's why a hydrogen bomb is som much more powerful than a fission bomb.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2008, 06:54:31 pm »
Didn't know that.....I too thought it was fission....

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2008, 08:11:23 pm »
Didn't know that.....I too thought it was fission....
Well technically it's a combination, but isn't it at least part fusion?

:edit:  OK, checked it on Wiki (Wiki: Teller-Ulam design or Wiki: Nuclear weapon design) and indeed fusion is part of the design of the H-bomb, but it's goal is to boost the fission rather than using the energy of the fusion itself. So that doesn't really qualify it as a fusion weapon. I stand corrected.

Apparently the bombs that use fusion are called thermonuclear weapons and the pure fission bombs are called nuclear wapons. Cute little detail :P
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 08:24:44 pm by patrickl »
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2008, 09:17:26 pm »


im surprised only patrickl picked up on that. the pic is of a US hydrogen bomb test. those little black lines are decommisioned warships lined up around the exposion to gauge the effects of the explosion. a hydrogen bomb is the simplest form of fusion. a nuclear device is used to compress hydrogen atoms together (more or less) so they fuse. the release of energy is much, much greater than the energy of the fission bomb used to detonate it.

'cold' fusion is a dream. nowadays i hate to say 'never' but- NEVER! how can you possibly do fusion in a controlled way, without using MORE energy than you put in.

besides, we already have the technology to collect fusion energy from a source that puts out millioons of hydrogen bombs worth per second




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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2008, 09:48:25 pm »
I'm getting confused now. One wiki page says that the h-bomb is mostly (boosted) fission and only to a lesser extent fusion:
Quote
There are three basic design types. In all three, the explosive energy is derived primarily from nuclear fission, not fusion.

Rereading the other page it says that in the biggest bomb "evar" 97% of the energy came from fusion:
Quote
The Soviets demonstrated the power of the "staging" concept in October 1961, when they detonated the massive and unwieldy Tsar Bomba, a 50 Mt hydrogen bomb which derived almost 97% of its energy from fusion. It was the largest nuclear weapon developed and tested by any country, but was far too large for the Soviets to use as a weapon.
But then maybe that's just the boost effect since elsewhere they claim that the Teller-Ulam design multiplies the energy of the primary (fission explosion) by a factor of 30.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2008, 04:37:29 pm »
Who cares!! When the blackhole generator goes online this spring it's all over. But if the time machine theory works just go back in time and claim the middle east first.
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/03/time-machine-worlds-biggest-particle.html
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2008, 07:52:49 pm »
Who cares!! When the blackhole generator goes online this spring it's all over. But if the time machine theory works just go back in time and claim the middle east first.
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/03/time-machine-worlds-biggest-particle.html
OMG, that WILL go wrong, they use freaking Windows XP !!!!



And why don't I have tech colleagues like that ?

« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 07:56:19 pm by Level42 »

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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2008, 08:23:45 pm »
And why don't I have tech colleagues like that ?
The link is not working, but I'm pretty sure I know which picture you were talking about :)

It reminded me of that Bond movie with Denise Richards.
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Re: There is no gas shortage
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2008, 01:52:03 am »

OMG, that WILL go wrong, they use freaking Windows XP !!!!


It could be worse.  They could be using Vista.

BTW, just look at those pictures.  If those people want to make some real money they ought to forget black holes and start renting it out as a set for Hollywood sci-fi movies.
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