Reconditioning Nintendo 4-Way Joystick or Alternative

[DonkeyKong]

As I've read, and piloted, Nintendo joysticks suck... but if you want to keep it original you only have one option... make it suck less.

So to do that, usually the spring needs to be replaced, and everything needs to be cleaned and re-greased.  What grease is preferred in these?  I used white lithium in a DK3 stick I have and it's ok but still kind of sticking.

The other thing I'm hearing is there is a buildup of crud and potentially rust in the ball joint.  Is there any way to disassemble the joystick to get to the tootsie roll center pictured here?



Or is this thing spot welded together? ...which would be really dumb.

Does anyone have a 4-way nintendo in GREAT shape that you would sell me?


Let say I could look the other way and not use a nintendo joystick in a DK restoration, what are the best alternatives?  I've read that the Sanwa 4-way is good.  Preferably I would want that same tight feel but less sucky of course!

Thanks!

[MaximRecoil]

Using grease is your problem (plus it probably hasn't been cleaned properly since the Reagan Administration). Grease makes it feel sluggish/sticky. Use something light, like machine oil or silicone spray on the main pivot bearing. Also, you have to clean the pivot bearing and its socket thoroughly first.

And of course it is spot welded. That pivot bearing is in the socket for good. However, all you need to do is spray some degreaser in there and let it soak. Then get in there with a tooth brush or pipe cleaner or whatever and clean all the gunk out of there.

You will of course want to disassemble it to its basic components first though (remove the E-clip from the bottom of the shaft and it will essentially fall apart).

I doubt your spring needs to be replaced unless it is broken. They were light springs even when new.

I have one of these that came in a Punch-Out CP I bought that needs to be cleaned and lubricated. It is bad enough that in one of its 4 directions, the shaft actually sticks there indefinitely, and in the other 3 directions, the return to center is very slow. I should make a before and after video of this joystick to show that they are not sticky/sluggish by design—which seems to be a popular opinion among people who for whatever reason, don't clean and lubricate them properly.

[DonkeyKong]

Well here's a little more history of my efforts.

I have this joystick on a Donkey Kong 3 panel, and it was very clean on the backside of the panel compared to most.  I disassembled the joystick as much as possible, removing the e-clip and micro switches, joystick shaft and everything else.  I cleaned all of the pieces in carburator cleaner until they were bright and shiny again.  But I could not completely remove the joystick from the CP because 2 of the 4 carriage bolt were stuck.  I didn't try super hard to get them off because I didn't want to scratch the front of the CP with vice grips or pliers or whatever.  So I just tried to get in there and clean as best I could.  There was a ton of stuff in there but no good way to blast it all out in the middle of my kitchen.  So I just kept working on it with q-tips and the cleaner.  After I had enough I decided to just put it all back together and lube it up.  I made sure to just get the lithium grease in the ball joint and left it OFF of the microswitches and spring and stuff.

I will have to disassemble it again and go for the gusto out in the garage.  It was just to damn cold before.  Now it might not be so bad.

Does the ball top and the shaft disassemble?  If so what do you grab and which direction do you turn it?  There is that discolored once-clear piece of plastic under the ball to deal with too.

I say the spring is toast because it doesn't really pull the joystick back to center all that well.  Yes I probably need to work on the ball joint more, but I still think it's weak.  I'll cross that bridge later then I guess.

[MaximRecoil]

Were the nuts on the two carriage bolts stuck because of that green LocTite-type stuff that Nintendo liked to splash everywhere? If so, you can dissolve that stuff with Goof-Off and there may be other stuff that works too. Whatever you use, be careful of where it goes. Some of those harsh chemicals can damage e.g. the Lexan that CPO's are made from.

If your ball top has a set screw at the base of it then it is removable. If not, then it won't come off without breaking it off. Nintendo made both types.

Like I said earlier, you need to make sure that the pivot bearing and its socket are completely clean; but do not use grease in there when you are finished. I've tried various types of grease in my own Nintendo joysticks, ranging from white lithium grease to bearing grease designed for a bicycle and it is no good. It makes the stick sluggish/sticky (slow to return to center). The light spring isn't the problem, the grease is. I use 3M dry silicon spray in mine now and it works great. I know it looks like grease would be just the thing, being a steel ball bearing in a steel socket and all, but it simply makes matters worse in this case. And remember, there is no significant load on that bearing during operation of the joystick, so a grease isn't necessary anyway.

[DonkeyKong]

Were the nuts on the two carriage bolts stuck because of that green LocTite-type stuff that Nintendo liked to splash everywhere? If so, you can dissolve that stuff with Goof-Off and there may be other stuff that works too. Whatever you use, be careful of where it goes. Some of those harsh chemicals can damage e.g. the Lexan that CPO's are made from.

Yep!  Damn stuff works too good.

If your ball top has a set screw at the base of it then it is removable. If not, then it won't come off without breaking it off. Nintendo made both types.

Like I said earlier, you need to make sure that the pivot bearing and its socket are completely clean; but do not use grease in there when you are finished. I've tried various types of grease in my own Nintendo joysticks, ranging from white lithium grease to bearing grease designed for a bicycle and it is no good. It makes the stick sluggish/sticky (slow to return to center). The light spring isn't the problem, the grease is. I use 3M dry silicon spray in mine now and it works great. I know it looks like grease would be just the thing, being a steel ball bearing in a steel socket and all, but it simply makes matters worse in this case. And remember, there is no significant load on that bearing during operation of the joystick, so a grease isn't necessary anyway.

I hear ya, I've just read a lot of people talking about greasing them.  And mine had grease in it.  I would think something has to be in there to cover the steel so it doesn't rust.  A light oil will eventually wear away and expose the metal.  And when it's rusty inside, what can you do?  I would think it's pretty much toast then.

It's too bad someone doesn't make replacement nintendo joysticks that are just like the original, except brand new.

I'll give this one some cleaning when I get a little more time.  Thanks for the help and advice MaximRecoil!

[MaximRecoil]

Rust should be the least of your concerns. If you are playing it enough to wear away the oil completely, to the point that it could rust, then rust won't be able to collect on a part that's moving a lot inside a socket like that anyway. Plus, it isn't hard to spray a shot of silicone lubricant down in there every now and then.  I've never seen any rust on that bearing.

You can obviously use grease if you want but in my experience, it sucks. It will make your joystick sluggish/sticky; at least it did with the types of grease that I've tried.

[Bender]

I just referbed an old Nintendo joystick for my donkey Kong cab (I'm slowly fixing up on part at a time, cap kit today actually)
I used rubbing alcohol and some q-tips to remove ALL the old grease(you have to roll around that little ball thing in there to get at it all and let it soak in there a while) which was like gum on there and then replaced it it with some Teflon grease I had from working on mountain bikes  the stuff works great and it NEVER gets sticky it's as smooth as silk! works better than any I remember playing, in fact I just got 102,800 no I'm serious 100 points less than you, how funny is that!

I hear ya, I've just read a lot of people talking about greasing them.  And mine had grease in it.  I would think something has to be in there to cover the steel so it doesn't rust.  A light oil will eventually wear away and expose the metal.  And when it's rusty inside, what can you do?  I would think it's pretty much toast then.

It's too bad someone doesn't make replacement Nintendo joysticks that are just like the original, except brand new.

I'll give this one some cleaning when I get a little more time.  Thanks for the help and advice MaximRecoil!

[MaximRecoil]

I just referbed an old Nintendo joystick for my donkey Kong cab (I'm slowly fixing up on part at a time, cap kit today actually)
I used rubbing alcohol and some q-tips to remove ALL the old grease(you have to roll around that little ball thing in there to get at it all and let it soak in there a while) which was like gum on there and then replaced it it with some Teflon grease I had from working on mountain bikes  the stuff works great and it NEVER gets sticky it's as smooth as silk! works better than any I remember playing, in fact I just got 102,800 no I'm serious 100 points less than you, how funny is that!

DuPont by any chance? That's an interesting idea. DuPont teflon bearing grease is great stuff. I should give that a try, if I can find any that is. I can't see it being any smoother than what I'm already using, which is...smooth, but I can see it lasting longer than a light lubricant would.

[Bender]

this is the Grease I used
I've had it for at least 10 years and it is still like new,  although its almost all gone now



Here's another tip I discovered, If you bend the arms on the microswitches a little more so they're almost touching the shaft and the stick will be more responsive (damn, that sounds bad out of context)

[MaximRecoil]

Here's another tip I discovered, If you bend the arms on the microswitches a little more so they're almost touching the shaft and the stick will be more responsive (damn, that sounds bad out of context)

I recently undid some bends like that in one of my Nintendo joysticks, that someone else had done. I prefer the stock arrangement. I move the stick all the way until it hits the restrictor anyway, so it doesn't really matter at what point in that short trip that the switch closes.

[Bender]

I recently undid some bends like that in one of my Nintendo joysticks, that someone else had done. I prefer the stock arrangement. I move the stick all the way until it hits the restrictor anyway, so it doesn't really matter at what point in that short trip that the switch closes.

Yeah, I can see what you are saying

Just a personal preference, I like the joystick to feel a little tighter is all. After cleaning it all out greaseing it up and adjusting those microswitch arms I think it "sucks" a lot less, actually I kinda like it now, and I've been playin' a lot better too! After I fixed the monitor today I just got my new highest score 116,000

[DonkeyKong]

I just referbed an old Nintendo joystick for my donkey Kong cab (I'm slowly fixing up on part at a time, cap kit today actually)
I used rubbing alcohol and some q-tips to remove ALL the old grease(you have to roll around that little ball thing in there to get at it all and let it soak in there a while) which was like gum on there and then replaced it it with some Teflon grease I had from working on mountain bikes  the stuff works great and it NEVER gets sticky it's as smooth as silk! works better than any I remember playing, in fact I just got 102,800 no I'm serious 100 points less than you, how funny is that!

Oh man! 100 points less.  What was your previous high score before that?

I'm sure there are all kinds of oils to use... and it wouldn't be that hard to squirt some in there every few plays.  I just wouldn't want it smelling like oil all of the time.  I'll have to experiment after I get it cleaned up.  After it's clean, I can always degrease it and start over to try different stuff.

After cleaning it all out greaseing it up and adjusting those microswitch arms I think it "sucks" a lot less, actually I kinda like it now, and I've been playin' a lot better too! After I fixed the monitor today I just got my new highest score 116,000

Oh no!! It's on like Donkey Kong son!!  I'm sure there are at least 40 people that are better than me at Donkey Kong, but you would have to beat me down when my machine is limp-wristed.  What I really need is a complete control panel for DK.  Even if I have to clean up the joystick it would be fine, but my DK control panel is seriously messed up.  The CPO is broken off on the left side and there is a sharp jagged piece that rides your hand as you play.  The board is warped too.  Does anyone on this forum sell just a newly cut control panel board for DK?  With that I can start rebuilding it.  I'm just not a woodworker, and would have to spend hundreds on tools and learn how to use them!  I want to do this... eventually, but right now during the winter I just want to play.

Personally I wouldn't want the joystick to be too responsive, and if I was going to leave the nintendo joystick in the machine, I would just leave it stock so I could submit high scores to twin-galaxies.  Once I break the 200k barrier consistently I'll probably start video taping.

Random thought of the moment:  I was just thinking it would be awexome to have a restored DK, DK Jr. DK3 and a DKII machine in my backroom.

Thanks for the tips guys... I'll keep you posted.

[MaximRecoil]

I'm sure there are all kinds of oils to use... and it wouldn't be that hard to squirt some in there every few plays.  I just wouldn't want it smelling like oil all of the time.

Every few plays? I've only lubricated my Super Punch-Out joystick a few times in the two and a half years that I've had it, and I've played it plenty. The few times that I did lubricate it wasn't because it seemed to need it, but rather, because I was bored. BTW, I don't smell the silicone spray while playing the machine.

[DonkeyKong]

Every few plays? I've only lubricated my Super Punch-Out joystick a few times in the two and a half years that I've had it, and I've played it plenty. The few times that I did lubricate it wasn't because it seemed to need it, but rather, because I was bored. BTW, I don't smell the silicone spray while playing the machine.

Oh... ok.  I guess there is no one answer for rebuilding a nintendo joystick.  It's just going to come down to what do I want, and what makes that work.  I'll try some stuff and report back.  Thanks guys.

[Bender]

Oh man! 100 points less.  What was your previous high score before that?

Oh no!! It's on like Donkey Kong son!!  I'm sure there are at least 40 people that are better than me at Donkey Kong, but you would have to beat me down when my machine is limp-wristed.  What I really need is a complete control panel for DK.  Even if I have to clean up the joystick it would be fine, but my DK control panel is seriously messed up.  The CPO is broken off on the left side and there is a sharp jagged piece that rides your hand as you play.  The board is warped too.  Does anyone on this forum sell just a newly cut control panel board for DK?  With that I can start rebuilding it.  I'm just not a woodworker, and would have to spend hundreds on tools and learn how to use them!  I want to do this... eventually, but right now during the winter I just want to play.

Personally I wouldn't want the joystick to be too responsive, and if I was going to leave the nintendo joystick in the machine, I would just leave it stock so I could submit high scores to twin-galaxies.  Once I break the 200k barrier consistently I'll probably start video taping.

Random thought of the moment:  I was just thinking it would be awexome to have a restored DK, DK Jr. DK3 and a DKII machine in my backroom.

Thanks for the tips guys... I'll keep you posted.

I'm actually going to make a new cp this weekend. If you want for the cost of materials I'll make you one.
I'm going to make it out of MDF and put black laminate on the top, I even have enough extra t-molding  for a second one!
Let me know exactally how wide you want it, my original leaves a pretty wide gap on the sides that I'd like to tighten up so I'm making mine a little wider than the original
PM me for details

DK2 Chips are on there way, can't wait!
Could you put DK.DK jr., DK3, and DK2 all that in one cab? (not with MANE) That Would Be Cool!

I read that Twin Galaxies doesn't accept videos for DK high scores anymore, you have to do it live at an event I think (I think I read that in the extras on the "Fist Full of Quarter" DVD)

My previous high was in the high 90,000 range I can't remember exactly
It was before I got the high score save kit so it was erased when I turned of the machine 
 

[MaximRecoil]

I read that Twin Galaxies doesn't accept videos for DK high scores anymore, you have to do it live at an event I think (I think I read that in the extras on the "Fist Full of Quarter" DVD)

I doubt that's the case. You could contact TG or ask on their forums to be sure, but I've never heard of an exception for a particular game to their standard rules of score submission.

[Daniel B.]

I read that Twin Galaxies doesn't accept videos for DK high scores anymore, you have to do it live at an event I think (I think I read that in the extras on the "Fist Full of Quarter" DVD)

Fortunately for us, they only require live scores for scores over a million. I just read it on tg yesterday!

now..for the damn elevator screen.....

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Here's a related question:


If you can't track down an original Nintendo joystick, what's the closest alternative?


i've got a working donkey kong board sitting around waiting for a home in a DK cabinet.

[DonkeyKong]

I'm actually going to make a new cp this weekend. If you want for the cost of materials I'll make you one.
I'm going to make it out of MDF and put black laminate on the top, I even have enough extra t-molding  for a second one!
Let me know exactally how wide you want it, my original leaves a pretty wide gap on the sides that I'd like to tighten up so I'm making mine a little wider than the original

Sweet!  PM sent.

DK2 Chips are on there way, can't wait!
Could you put DK.DK jr., DK3, and DK2 all that in one cab? (not with MANE) That Would Be Cool!

Yes I'm sure of it, but I don't know quite how yet.  I've heard of people doing it by switching the power to each board through pressing down player 1 and 2 buttons at the same time.  I not sure if that would be the best way to do it, but off the top of my head I can't really think of a better way.  I'm guessing they let the ground float on the boards that are off, but I don't see how to do that without making the video and audio grounds run through the PCB back to the power supply... obviously not an ideal condition.

I read that Twin Galaxies doesn't accept videos for DK high scores anymore, you have to do it live at an event I think (I think I read that in the extras on the "Fist Full of Quarter" DVD)

My previous high was in the high 90,000 range I can't remember exactly
It was before I got the high score save kit so it was erased when I turned of the machine 

I wouldn't doubt it because I'm fairly certain they are getting TONS of videotaped submissions for Donkey Kong now and there is just no way to go out and verify everyone's machines.  It would be pretty easy to conceive with all the publicity that The King of Kong got, that fake scores and altered code for Donkey Kong would be a problem.  If they don't normally go out and verify machines, I'm thinking they might want to now, at least for Donkey Kong.

I read that Twin Galaxies doesn't accept videos for DK high scores anymore, you have to do it live at an event I think (I think I read that in the extras on the "Fist Full of Quarter" DVD)

Fortunately for us, they only require live scores for scores over a million. I just read it on tg yesterday!

now..for the damn elevator screen.....

Ahh, that confirms it.  Good too, because I'm not hitting 1M anytime soon.

If you can't track down an original Nintendo joystick, what's the closest alternative?

That's what I originally asked ;-)  I'm thinking the answer is one of the SANWA joysticks but I'm not sure yet.

EDIT:  Neilyboy used a Sanwa JLF and I'd say it looks a little bigger than the original nintendo stick, but definitely looks good being all new and shiny.  I heard they play good too ;-)

[MaximRecoil]

Here's a related question:


If you can't track down an original Nintendo joystick, what's the closest alternative?


i've got a working donkey kong board sitting around waiting for a home in a DK cabinet.

If you've got the bucks go for this - NOS Wico 4 way stick for Donkey Kong

This is a retrofit stick made by Wico to use on Donkey Kong cabinets. It includes and 4 way wico leaf switch stick, metal mounting plate and hardware. Original instructions are included.

That would have a type of "authenticity" in its own right (a specific replacement part from a reputable company, from "back in the day"), and it would probably be fairly unique. Plus it seems that most people prefer the "feel" of a Wico to a Nintendo joystick (I don't).

Otherwise, I'd think something like a Sanwa or one of those Happ "Reunion" Pac-Man sticks would be fine, though you'd need an adaptor mounting plate if you're using a stock control panel.

[Bender]

You can usually find an original at:
 Mike's arcadehttp://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?action=search&category=Game+Parts&subcategory=Joysticks
Quarterarcadehttp://www.quarterarcade.com/Name.aspx?rgeid=796
They will need some TLC but that's part of the fun!
seems like the have some nice alternatives too

Mine had A Wico on it when I got and I didn't like.
Leaf switches on Donkey kong Just not right for me

[DonkeyKong]

A little update...

Tonight I took my Donkey Kong 3 control panel apart and cleaned out all of the white lithium grease I had put in the joystick.  The white lithium grease was definitely dried a bit and had turned into a thick grease, very capable of sticking up the joystick.

I'm pretty sure that green stuff on all of  the screws and nuts is Glyptal, which is an insulating enamel used in electronics quite a bit.  I used straight acetone on a q-tip to dissolve it really fast.

It did take a while to get all of the gunk out of the ball joint, and after a handful of q-tips full of acetone, flux-remover and WD40, a good bath in soap and water with a stiff nylon brush, air compressor dry and re-lube with liquid wrench's silicone spray, I'm pleased to say it's now kicking @55!

With the joystick inserted in the ball joint, and some modest pressure down, I couldn't feel ANY resistance to the typical movements of UP, DN, LF, RT.  It was smooth as silk.  When I reassembled the return plate, spring, switch pusher thingy, and e-clip, the resistance could be felt again... but it was smooth and not sticking so I could care less.  I actually added a couple thin washers behind the e-clip to increase the resistance, or return to center action, on the joystick.

I believe where the return plate rides on the underside of the ball joint cup, there is some metal on metal resistance that could be better.  I might take it apart some time down the road and try to polish that little stamped metal edge of the ball joint cup, and also the return plate.  One might think that would not allow the joystick to return to center properly, but I say it would definitely help it.

So yay!  I don't have any fears of keeping the joystick original now.  If it can be cleaned and re-lubed like this every time, there's really no reason to not use the original joystick.  It's great for these quick movements and you can rest your hand on the control panel for extended play times.  Keeping it original stands for something too ;-)

Now I have to work on my high score!  Watch out Bender!!  I'm coming for you.

Oh, I definitely have to order one of those Braze High Score kits and the D2K romset... $85! But hey it's like two games in one and I feel obligated to support someone who spent to much time and effort making a new version of a game I really really enjoy.

Anyone have an extra nintendo stick they would like to sell me?  I could also trade perhaps for a Donkey Kong marquee or bezel I have.  The marquee is ok with only a bit of paint missing, but the bezel is pretty carved up from hooligans!  But hey, if your name is Mike and you fell in love with Lori and Donkey Kong back in the 80's, this might be worth a fortune!!

I don't want to cannibalize this DK3 control panel now that it's clean and working awexome.  I'm still not sure if I'm going to sell of my DK3 kit or not.  If I could just buy another DK cabinet locally that has everything except a working PCB I would definitely jump on it, and just keep the DK3 machine as-is (it has side art that is about 95% intact, a nice bezel, sweet CP, and alright marquee so it's good to go as far as DK3 is concerned for me).

[MaximRecoil]

It did take a while to get all of the gunk out of the ball joint, and after a handful of q-tips full of acetone, flux-remover and WD40, a good bath in soap and water with a stiff nylon brush, air compressor dry and re-lube with liquid wrench's silicone spray, I'm pleased to say it's now kicking @55!

Yup, that's exactly the way to do it.

I believe where the return plate rides on the underside of the ball joint cup, there is some metal on metal resistance that could be better.  I might take it apart some time down the road and try to polish that little stamped metal edge of the ball joint cup, and also the return plate.  One might think that would not allow the joystick to return to center properly, but I say it would definitely help it.

It wouldn't hurt to use some grease at that point between the top of the plate and the bottom of the bearing cup, and polishing/deburring both the bottom edge of the cup and the plate would help too if you really want to fine tune it, because that is the main point of friction in the system (assuming everything is clean).

Make sure it still has its 4-way restrictor like it is supposed to.

These sticks are a very simple design and are built to last. I've yet to see one that can't be made to work smoothly again with a thorough cleaning.

[Bender]

It wouldn't hurt to use some grease at that point between the top of the plate and the bottom of the bearing cup, and polishing/deburring both the bottom edge of the cup and the plate would help too if you really want to fine tune it, because that is the main point of friction in the system (assuming everything is clean).

Make sure it still has its 4-way restrictor like it is supposed to.

These sticks are a very simple design and are built to last. I've yet to see one that can't be made to work smoothly again with a thorough cleaning.

I actually added a couple thin washers behind the e-clip to increase the resistance, or return to center action, on the joystick.

I believe where the return plate rides on the underside of the ball joint cup, there is some metal on metal resistance that could be better.  I might take it apart some time down the road and try to polish that little stamped metal edge of the ball joint cup, and also the return plate.  One might think that would not allow the joystick to return to center properly, but I say it would definitely help it.


Now I have to work on my high score!  Watch out Bender!!  I'm coming for you.

Bring it on... DonkeyKong!!!   actually I haven been able to get past the high 80,000's the last few days

Seriously though you guys just gave me an Idea. If we can find A nylon washer that will fit between the bearing cup and  and the return plate it would avoid the metal on metal problem as well as adding some more resistance to the spring (two Birds with one barrel)
I'll try it in the next couple of days and let you know how it works out

MaximRecoil,
Did I read somewhere that you are in Bangor?
I was just there on Saturday

[MaximRecoil]

Seriously though you guys just gave me an Idea. If we can find A nylon washer that will fit between the bearing cup and  and the return plate it would avoid the metal on metal problem as well as adding some more resistance to the spring (two Birds with one barrel)
I'll try it in the next couple of days and let you know how it works out

I've thought of trying that myself; I just haven't gotten around to trying it yet. Should be easy enough to find a thin nylon washer of about the right size at the hardware store. If they make things even smoother, then just buy a handful of them and you should be set for life.

MaximRecoil,
Did I read somewhere that you are in Bangor?
I was just there on Saturday

I'm in Dexter, about 45 minutes' drive from Bangor. I used to go to the arcade in the Bangor Mall (Spaceport) a lot when I was a teenager.

Are you from Maine?

[Bender]

I'm in Dexter, about 45 minutes' drive from Bangor. I used to go to the arcade in the Bangor Mall (Spaceport) a lot when I was a teenager.

Are you from Maine?

Yeah, Down here in York, most people up your way call it New Hampshire 

[MaximRecoil]

I'm in Dexter, about 45 minutes' drive from Bangor. I used to go to the arcade in the Bangor Mall (Spaceport) a lot when I was a teenager.

Are you from Maine?

Yeah, Down here in York, most people up your way call it New Hampshire 

Okay, I remember you said that in another thread now that you mention it. Yeah, you are damn near a flatlander—but on the other hand, you must be pretty close to Funspot.

What's in Bangor that you couldn't find in Portland?

[DonkeyKong]

It wouldn't hurt to use some grease at that point between the top of the plate and the bottom of the bearing cup,

I respectfully disagree.  You've fully sold me on the fact that grease would gum things up. And grease right there would give me the same sticky feeling I had.  When you are at center, you have to overcome the force of the spring pushing two flat pieces of metal together.  I had this all lubed up with silicone spray and it's great, it's just not effortless.  It doesn't stick, just not smooth.  This is one of those hard to explain things.  I think it's the force of the spring and metal on metal... it's a lot at center, and the more you move the stick to the side to less the force to move is, but the more it wants to return back to center.  Ok, now I'm confusing myself!!  LOL.

and polishing/deburring both the bottom edge of the cup and the plate would help too if you really want to fine tune it, because that is the main point of friction in the system (assuming everything is clean).

Yeah, if you can imagine maybe putting a slight quarter round on the outside edge of that bearing cup, the return plate wouldn't have to break over a sharp edge.  The joystick should return to center the same way due to the return plate mounting smoothly over the joystick shaft and not being able to wobble side to side like a washer might.

So I was thinking about this more... it's not like I'm going to be able to get some fine sand paper in there due to the other piece of metal that holds the micro switches.  I think I have this little sanding stick thing that might work though.  A dremel would also be good, but I really want to break that edge off too, not just polish it.  Maybe some low speed CAREFUL work with the dremel.

Make sure it still has its 4-way restrictor like it is supposed to.

Oh yeah, it's there.  This stick was original in every respect.  The glyptal on all of the screws and nuts had never been broken loose.  This thing just had either 25 year old grease in it, or someone keep greasing it over time.

Bring it on... DonkeyKong!!!   actually I haven been able to get past the high 80,000's the last few days

Uht oh, I think that means your high score was a fluke!  It actually starts to get really crazy once you reach 80-100k, and if you are out of practice even 55k might seem like a challenge.  I'm sure you will modify your joystick some more and get back up there again ;-)

I'll hopefully get some practice this weekend.

Seriously though you guys just gave me an Idea. If we can find A nylon washer that will fit between the bearing cup and  and the return plate it would avoid the metal on metal problem as well as adding some more resistance to the spring (two Birds with one barrel)
I'll try it in the next couple of days and let you know how it works out

That does sound like it would work well.  I wonder if the sharp (maybe not so sharp after 25 years of play) edge of the bearing cup would shave that nylon washer down?

I bet you will get to it before I end up trying to buff the bearing cup... I'd definitely be interested in knowing how it works out.

[MaximRecoil]

It wouldn't hurt to use some grease at that point between the top of the plate and the bottom of the bearing cup,

I respectfully disagree.  You've fully sold me on the fact that grease would gum things up. And grease right there would give me the same sticky feeling I had. 

Yes, but before, I was talking about greasing the bearing itself inside the cup. I don't think a light film of grease on top of that plate would gum anything up, but either way...

I'm actually interested in trying the nylon washer thing at that point.

When you are at center, you have to overcome the force of the spring pushing two flat pieces of metal together.  I had this all lubed up with silicone spray and it's great, it's just not effortless.  It doesn't stick, just not smooth.  This is one of those hard to explain things.  I think it's the force of the spring and metal on metal... it's a lot at center, and the more you move the stick to the side to less the force to move is, but the more it wants to return back to center.  Ok, now I'm confusing myself!!  LOL.

I know exactly what you are talking about. Additionally, over time, that plate get grooves worn in it, which can create slightly more resistance to that initial movement from center to one of the 4 directions. Having a new plate made by a machinist would be nice (or grinding it down flat again like they do with grooved brake rotors), but like I said, I think the nylon washer there might work out well too.

Yeah, if you can imagine maybe putting a slight quarter round on the outside edge of that bearing cup, the return plate wouldn't have to break over a sharp edge.  The joystick should return to center the same way due to the return plate mounting smoothly over the joystick shaft and not being able to wobble side to side like a washer might.

Yeah, I think that would work great if you wanted to put forth the effort to do it. I've thought of doing that too but it would be a lot of work if you want to get it really smooth. Again, I'm going to try a nylon washer. I won't be out anything (aside from a few cents) if I don't like it. And the thing about nylon is, as it wears and grooves to the shape of the metal it is riding against, the friction actually decreases (until it wears out completely anyway). If you look at the innards of an SNK LS-30 rotary joystick (Ikari Warriors) you will see a series of nylon and metal mating surfaces, and with those joysticks, a used one is smoother than an NOS one. The problem is, some of the nylon parts are in a proprietary shape (i.e., not just a flat washer) so once they wear out completely, your stick is pretty much done for.

[WunderCade]

Why not try using a lot of those little rubber rings they use on braces for your teeth. You could add them to the bottom of the stick just above the e-ring until you build up a mound big enough to snug up the joystick to "center"? Or you can use any small rubber band-type thingys.

[blkdog7]

In the last two days I have completely taken apart, insanely cleaned and rebuilt, two different DK joysticks. It's quite easy and sort of therapeutic.

Before taking them apart I drew a diagram showing where all the wires went.

I complelty disassembled every single piece of the joystick. Removed the switches, 4 way restrictor, etc. There was not a piece that was not removed. On both of the joysticks that I cleaned they had a ton of grease that was full of dirt and grime. The micro-switches were also gummed up on the metal lever part. I took every single part of the joystick and sprayed the living hell out of them with Johnsen's Electronic Cleaner:



After spraying them I wiped them down with a soft rag. I did this to every component, switch, etc. of the joystick over and over 'til nothing had any grime on it. No grease, no black, only nice shiny metal.  I also did the same for the little roller ball thing inside the top of the metal plate. I kept spraying and spraying until the ball was just raw metal and had no grease or any grime on it.

I then put it all back together but sprayed the ROLLER BALL ONLY with Pure Silicone Hinge Lubricant Spray:



Both joysticks came completely back to life and felt like completely different and new sticks. I highly recommend this before replacing your stick. It's easy and a bit rewarding. Just make sure you are ready to catch everything when your remove the "C-Clip". It's not fun trying to find the parts that flew across the room.

[WunderCade]

Do you find that there is still a lot of play (jiggle) in the stick even after you greased it or is it  snug a "center"?

In other words you can tap/flick the ball top with you fingers and the joystick doesn't sort of just jostle around. That's what mine does. In looking at it it appears to need some sort of grommet at the end where the E-clip is so there isn't soo much play between the shaft and leafs. That is what is causing the joystick to feel loose.

[pcb]

... usually the spring needs to be replaced ...

I have not found an alternative spring for these.  Has someone else found them?

[blkdog7]

Do you find that there is still a lot of play (jiggle) in the stick even after you greased it or is it  snug a "center"?

In other words you can tap/flick the ball top with you fingers and the joystick doesn't sort of just jostle around. That's what mine does. In looking at it it appears to need some sort of grommet at the end where the E-clip is so there isn't soo much play between the shaft and leafs. That is what is causing the joystick to feel loose.

The two joysticks I did both center completely after cleaning. You can push it in any direction and it always returns to center. On one of them it would completely stick to the right. If you pushed right and let go it would often stay stuck to the right. After cleaning it returned to center as expected.

Anyways, your joystick should have all of these parts:



If it doesn't then something is missing!

[WunderCade]

Mine returns to center it's just real jiggly. I can jiggle it around. I've looked underneath the CP and there is some space between the contacts and shaft of the stick. That's the only thing I can see that allows it to jiggle around on center instead of being snug.

Now, mind you...I have not cleaned and re-greased the middle bearing. Maybe some grease will take care of some of that jiggle.lol

[MaximRecoil]

Mine returns to center it's just real jiggly. I can jiggle it around. I've looked underneath the CP and there is some space between the contacts and shaft of the stick. That's the only thing I can see that allows it to jiggle around on center instead of being snug.

Now, mind you...I have not cleaned and re-greased the middle bearing. Maybe some grease will take care of some of that jiggle.lol

They do that by design. There is a certain amount of free travel in any direction before they trip a microswitch and because of the light spring, there is not a lot of force keeping them "centered". They are never going to feel like say, a Happ Competion, because they have a different design.

[blkdog7]

Mine returns to center it's just real jiggly. I can jiggle it around. I've looked underneath the CP and there is some space between the contacts and shaft of the stick. That's the only thing I can see that allows it to jiggle around on center instead of being snug.

Now, mind you...I have not cleaned and re-greased the middle bearing. Maybe some grease will take care of some of that jiggle.lol

That sounds like a Nintendo joystick to me! Get jiggy with it!

[MaximRecoil]

An update for this old thread, since it gets linked to from time to time when the topic comes up:

Mike's Arcade is now not only making reproduction Nintendo joysticks, but he sells the parts for them as well. Two important parts are the spring:



And the spring stopper:



If you look at the spring stopper on most any old Nintendo joystick you'll see that the top surface of it is grooved/chewed up. Since this surface is always riding against the underside of the bearing cup in the base, that roughness can make the travel of the stick less smooth than it could/should be. Replacing that part may improve things. I talked about this earlier in the thread:

Additionally, over time, that plate gets grooves worn in it, which can create slightly more resistance to that initial movement from center to one of the 4 directions. Having a new plate made by a machinist would be nice (or grinding it down flat again like they do with grooved brake rotors)

But at the time, no replacement part was available.

[DonkeyKong]

Cool!  I'm probably getting some RAM from him soon... now I'll grab a couple sets of those springs and plates and see how they work out.  Hopefully the plate is made from a hardened steel, so that it will last another 25 years!

[Level42]

The nintendo manual says to lubricate the "pillow ball" and restrictor plate every 3 months. Remember that is in an arcade situation, depending on your desire to be King of Kong you may need to do it more or less often

I played Mike's full panel with the previous "replacement" stick yesterday and I didn' t like it at all. Way to stiff.  I'm NOT talking about the new reproductions, this was the stick that came in the complete DK repro CP. It also seemed not correctly mounted, I had to hit the stick against the CP plexi to get it to go up. Sometimes it didn't respond or was just that deciding moment too late. Re-aligning the joystick might fix this, but it wasn't my machine.....

I'd like to see Mike make the shaft + ball available too....now I only found the ball. My balls (MB. panel) are stuck to the stick. (yeah yeah, sounds very funny). The balls are worn and the plastic that used to be transparant is of course yellowed and dirty like all of them I guess....

I must say I'm pretty much used to the 2-way sticks on the MB. It works pretty well. I've just cleaned them (not reinstalled yet, replacing the CPO now) so I hope they will even feel better.

I do wonder how those will hold up on a 4-way game though. I think the stick maybe too short for 4-way. I'm already playing with my thumb to move the stick instead of the "whole" hand like normaly. Same thing I do on Galaxian. However I'm not sure if that will work ok on a 4-way game.

I'd like to try to replace the microswitches with leafs. Maybe GGG's micro-leaf, but real leafs would be great I think. It's hard to place them though I know.

I've already replaced the jump buttons with leafs, which was _really_ easy to do.

[pcb]

I played Mike's full panel with the previous "replacement" stick yesterday and I didn' t like it at all. Way to stiff.  I'm NOT talking about the new reproductions, this was the stick that came in the complete DK repro CP. It also seemed not correctly mounted, I had to hit the stick against the CP plexi to get it to go up. Sometimes it didn't respond or was just that deciding moment too late. Re-aligning the joystick might fix this, but it wasn't my machine.....

Ack!  That's not right!  Please have the guy who purchased that panel contact me.  The stick should work well and you shouldn't have to bang on it to make it work in any direction.

 - Mike -

[DonkeyKong]

I played Mike's full panel with the previous "replacement" stick yesterday and I didn' t like it at all. Way to stiff.  I'm NOT talking about the new reproductions, this was the stick that came in the complete DK repro CP. It also seemed not correctly mounted, I had to hit the stick against the CP plexi to get it to go up. Sometimes it didn't respond or was just that deciding moment too late. Re-aligning the joystick might fix this, but it wasn't my machine.....

Ack!  That's not right!  Please have the guy who purchased that panel contact me.  The stick should work well and you shouldn't have to bang on it to make it work in any direction.

 - Mike -

When you go looking for problems with your products, THAT's good service!

[jimkirk]

I played Mike's full panel with the previous "replacement" stick yesterday and I didn' t like it at all. Way to stiff.  I'm NOT talking about the new reproductions, this was the stick that came in the complete DK repro CP. It also seemed not correctly mounted, I had to hit the stick against the CP plexi to get it to go up. Sometimes it didn't respond or was just that deciding moment too late. Re-aligning the joystick might fix this, but it wasn't my machine.....

Ack!  That's not right!  Please have the guy who purchased that panel contact me.  The stick should work well and you shouldn't have to bang on it to make it work in any direction.

 - Mike -

When you go looking for problems with your products, THAT's good service!

Yes Mike has the best customer service. If there is a problem he will take care of it pronto. Shipping is also very fast. I recommend all the time.

[Level42]

PM sent Mike

[MaximRecoil]

I don't know if Mike has made an announcement here or not, but he has a prototype Super Punch-Out joystick, which, in kit form, can convert an original standard Nintendo joystick, or one of his reproductions, to an SPO joystick without making any permanent changes (no drilling or anything). He came up with a very clever way of attaching the bracket for the 5th microswitch. Instead of screwing directly to the side of the base like the originals do, he designed the bracket to be secured by the same carriage bolts that secure the joystick to the control panel, which is how he made it so people wouldn't have to drill their joystick or make any other permanent changes to convert it to an SPO joystick. So if you want an authentic way to control SPO or Arm Wresting in MAME (2-way restrictor should be used for Arm Wrestling rather than the 4-way for SPO), this is it; and of course this is also perfect for converting an original Punch-Out to SPO or AW.

I never thought I'd see the day. Original SPO joysticks are about as common as hen's teeth, and their lack of availability was a major stumbling block for people wanting to play SPO correctly.

I am in no way affiliated with Mike's Arcade BTW, it is just that I've been hoping for a reproduction of the various Nintendo joysticks, particularly the rare SPO joystick for such a long time.



You can see in that picture the clever no-modification method of attaching the bracket for the 5th microswitch that Mike came up with. More pictures here.

[CheffoJeffo]

That's pretty darn cool ...