Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards

[GaijinPunch]

Okay, I'm looking to downsize my emulation machine (IE, make it smaller) so I need a low-profile solution.  That means AVGA is out, unfortunately.  Seems there's a lot of issues w/ some cards.  Don't suppose there's a master list of recommended chip sets w/ Soft15khz? 

EDIT: The other option is to use the onboard card (Intel Graphics Accelerator GM4500) although I have very little faith that that will work.

[SailorSat]

Okay, I'm looking to downsize my emulation machine (IE, make it smaller) so I need a low-profile solution.  That means AVGA is out, unfortunately.  Seems there's a lot of issues w/ some cards.  Don't suppose there's a master list of recommended chip sets w/ Soft15khz?

If it hasn't to be the newest model, then I'd say grab an Radeon 7000 - Radeon 9250, as they are available in LowProfile, and work fine. (Use Catalyst 6.5)

EDIT: The other option is to use the onboard card (Intel Graphics Accelerator GM4500) although I have very little faith that that will work.

It most likely works, but only with a maximum of 5 resolutions. I don't believe Intel changed that limit yet.

[GaijinPunch]

Cheers -- I'll go hunting for a Radeon.

[TheManuel]

no, sir, they were not. they displayed at 15kHZ progressive. if anyone knows how to get a computer to give this kind of a signal to regular tv through s-video/component please share. it doesn't look like you can, however,....

You're right, however I don't know enough about that TV encoder chips.
All I can tell is that they resample the image from the framebuffer

Ah, no problem. Thanks for the response anyway, Sailorsat.

This is my eternal struggle.
I almost finished my cab last week and I'm starting to divert my attention to software and video signal again.  This is the one area I would like to resolve the most.  I took the kids to Chuck E. Cheese's last Saturday and had a chance to look at a Donkey Kong machine.  The 240p output is noticeably different than what I get at 480i on my TV through component and the interlaced  flickering on my TV is what bothers me the most.  Try playing Tetris at 480i for a while close to the TV and you'll almost go blind.  Also, you can see line combing on moving images even with tripple-buffer enabled and no screen tearing visible which I don't recall seeing on original arcade machines (notice yesterday playing Shinobi). 

I have an nVidia 8500GT card with the latest drivers and plan to start playing with the custom resolutions.
The good thing about nVidia drivers is that you have much more access to operation parameters than ATI (I'm never going back to ATI) and you can specify a whole custom modeline through the driver.  The question is whether the TV encoder chip will honor the specification
I have some reading to do to get reacquainted with modelines as I haven't looked into it for a year now (too much Wii playing, cab woodwork, etc.).  So I'll see where that takes me and post any interesting findings I might come across.

If anyone is farther along on this, please share what you know.

Regards.

Hi SailorSat.

[TheManuel]

By the way, one expensive way to get around this is to purchase a transcoder that converts VGA signals to YPbPr but leaves the timing alone so that you can control it with Soft15KHz or WinModelines but last time I looked you had to fork out about $80 which I'm not willing to do and there is no guranatee you'll get it to work.

I've also seen cicuits posted for people to build by themselves but are a bit complicated and require programmable chips which you have to program yourself; not so user-friendly either.

[random92]

Sorry for the late reply.
Yo, those vga -> yuv transcoders look like they'll work. There is the expensive audio authority one, and a cheaper one by RCA. I think they should work since people have apparently used them to convert the RGB signals of old consoles to yuv so that they can hook it up to HDTVs that can't accept RGB signals(I think). I think I would be willing to pay for one if it I can play arcade and console classics at the right resolutions.

A couple of newbie questions:
Is a gma 500 compatible? If I want to use a cheap laptop..

If the windows resolution is set so low, how can you navigate/run programs?


by the way, themanual, if you get low resolutions from your nvidia card tv out encoder, let me know

[richms]

Look for a scart to component adapter -Do the same thing but not the HD modes so should be cheaper.

[TheManuel]

Look for a scart to component adapter -Do the same thing but not the HD modes so should be cheaper.

And then what, connect the RGB output from the video card to the equivalent SCART pins or sockets?

[GaijinPunch]

Uggh... WinXP won't install on my new machine.  WTF?!  Damn this thing.  Should I even bother with Windows 7?  From the 10 seconds I've read on it Vista's crappy driver support should carry over, and I see there's at least experimental support. 

[SailorSat]

Maybe stick to 2000

[TheManuel]

Some chipsets these days, are not supported by Windows XP installation drivers.
This is not too hard to get around if you have a floppy drive.
You just need to prepare a driver diskette from the motherboard manufacturer website and press F6 while Windows is installing to load thirs party drivers.
I'm not sure if this is your case but it was with my setup.

[GaijinPunch]

It's when it gets to "Copying Files" it gives me a blue screen w/ an IRQ error.  I'll try another version, then maybe try to dig up 2000.  That'll be like going through a time machine... not like I really use Windows anymore anyway.

[GaijinPunch]

Well, I got XP installed and all that jazz.  I'm using a Radeon HD 4550... finding an old card is kind of tricky it seems.
Anyways, I run soft15khz and the "Install 15khz", "Install 25khz", "Install 31khz" options are ghosted.  Should I try an older version of Catalyst?  I'm using whatever came w/ the card, which is presumably quite new.

EDIT: Got a cheap 9250.  Now to wait for that sucker to arrive.

[Siris]

Does anyone have an act labs VGA gun working with soft15khz?

[Lukeyson]

Hello.

I don't know if this is well known, but a few websites like MP3Car.com and Fordmods.com have started taking notice of this utility because of it's ability to have a PC output RGB signals that match the factory screens in many major car manufacturers.

For example, I have an Australian built Ford Falcon with a colour screen in the centre console, called an "Interior Command Centre". It takes a 15kHz RGB signal, but many of us are using Composite to RGB converters to get this to work. A rare few people have been able to get older video cards to work, and others have been lucky enough to get Powerstrip to help them.

So firstly to clarify, and I think the answer is already yes. Can 'Soft-15kHz' be used on an Intel D945GCLF2 Mini-ITX Atom Board (Intel 945 chipset, or the GMA950) to generate a 15kHz, 640x480, 60Hz Interlaced resolution. Only a single resolution is ever needed, so we are not bothered by the GMA 5-res limit. The problem with Powerstrip is that it won't manipulate the Interlaced setting on any Intel IGP, so Soft-15kHz would appear to have an advantage in this regard.  (A known-working powerstip configuration can be found here:  http://www.fordmods.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49711 - I note that it says 30 Hz Interlaced, so I seek further clarification on whether I have asked for the right resolution.)

Secondly, I noticed the experimental support for the Intel EGP. Can I take it that this does not include the 810/815? I've noticed a few people asking to support it.  I have a couple of Hp E-PC C10 systems lying about which have Intel 810e chipsets - these systems make a good option for a cheap Car PC. Would there be any value in me posting over one of the mainboards as my donation? These systems sell quite cheaply on eBay from time to time. You'd need a notebook power supply and a HDD to get it to work.   However I am put off by this technote at the Intel website:  http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/CS-003869.htm - however, when I read the 810/815 developer's guide, I can clearly see an 'Interlaced' register in there.....so who knows whether it does it or not.


Luke Plaizier

[Ummon]

PSremote - okay....this only works with the resolution it's started in...so how is one supposed to use this for native resolutions?...that is, isn't the idea to be able to use it in-game?

[SailorSat]

I don't know if this is well known, but a few websites like MP3Car.com and Fordmods.com have started taking notice of this utility because of it's ability to have a PC output RGB signals that match the factory screens in many major car manufacturers.

Talking 'bout new horizons

So firstly to clarify, and I think the answer is already yes. Can 'Soft-15kHz' be used on an Intel D945GCLF2 Mini-ITX Atom Board (Intel 945 chipset, or the GMA950) to generate a 15kHz, 640x480, 60Hz Interlaced resolution. Only a single resolution is ever needed, so we are not bothered by the GMA 5-res limit. The problem with Powerstrip is that it won't manipulate the Interlaced setting on any Intel IGP, so Soft-15kHz would appear to have an advantage in this regard. I note that it says 30 Hz Interlaced, so I seek further clarification on whether I have asked for the right resolution.)

Basically yes, however I newer got too far into debuging the Intel port. There MAY be some bugs left.
I guess it would add it as 640x480 30Hz yes. For some reason Window shows up interlaces resolutions with half output (i.e. 25hz instead of real 50hz), but otherwise they should work fine.

Secondly, I noticed the experimental support for the Intel EGP. Can I take it that this does not include the 810/815? I've noticed a few people asking to support it.  I have a couple of Hp E-PC C10 systems lying about which have Intel 810e chipsets - these systems make a good option for a cheap Car PC. Would there be any value in me posting over one of the mainboards as my donation? These systems sell quite cheaply on eBay from time to time. You'd need a notebook power supply and a HDD to get it to work.   However I am put off by this technote at the Intel website:  http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/CS-003869.htm - however, when I read the 810/815 developer's guide, I can clearly see an 'Interlaced' register in there.....so who knows whether it does it or not.

As far as I know, you need a pretty old IEGD suite, 4.1 or something like that for the 810 series IGP but it should work.
I don't know if it would support interlace though. I had some "funny" debug sessions with my GMA 900 sometimes working interlaced, sometimes not.


I guess its time for a second look into the Intel IGPs

PSremote - okay....this only works with the resolution it's started in...so how is one supposed to use this for native resolutions?...that is, isn't the idea to be able to use it in-game?

Not yet.
At the moment you should select the native resolution via Quickres and then use the PSremote to "tweak" it.

However I somewhat canned the project for me as I simply can't get it work right for me

[GaijinPunch]

I've got a head scratcher here.

This worked
-Radeon HD4550
-Latest Catalyst
-Used Quickres to set 640x480 (p)
-Hooked up to my Mitsubishi tri-synch monitor
My desktop was displayed in 640x480, after some "clicking" where Windows sent goofy modes during boot.  The issue is that Soft15khz doesn't like this card, so the Install 15khz stuff was ghosted out.

This isn't working
-Radeon 9250
-Catalyst 6.5
-Using either Catalyst or Quickres to set to 640x480
-I'm hooking it up to the same monitor, and I get nothing.  No clicking, no nothing.  Just black. 

Both setups used DVI out, w/ a DSUB15 converter.  I know this isn't Soft15khz related but it seems a lot of people have 9250's w/ Catalyst 6.5 here.

Any clues?

[SailorSat]

Try using the "other" Port on the 9250. If it doesn't detect a DDC compliant monitor it falls back to the primary output.

[Ummon]

Older cards with DVI, the DVI was display '2', unless one switched this around in the Catalyst suite.

[Lukeyson]

Well, I just had a bit of a play with an ATom Intel 945 based Fujistu Microbook. It wasn't pleasant to be honest - but mainly because of the unit itself and the Intel drivers. I created a custom15khz.txt and removed every res I saw in the wiki page except for 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768. Still, in quickres, there were a bunch of other resolutions I couldn't remove. I also tried generating a modeline for 30i, and was able to access it in the multires selection meu - but the system locked each time I tried it!
'Modeline "640x480@30i" 5.49 640 672 688 720 480 491 493 404 interlace'
I used an online Xfree86 Modeline generation website to make this....

(1) Of course, the system has a built-in screen so I had to use the VGA Port
(2) The system only displays access to the VGA port settings when something is connected. Of course, with a simple NTSC RGB screen there is nothing but connections to RGB -which makes the system think nothing is connected! I will research to see what else I have to do at the vga pins to have the system recognise something is connected.
(3) Quickres does not let me change the res of Display #2. I had to use Multires for that.

With the VGA as the 2nd screen, I received a few 'Out or range 15.7kHz, 50Hz' messages, which makes me think it must have been 800x600 or 1024x768 - even though I was sure I was setting 640x480. Certainly Multires was reporting 640x480. I couldn't confirm the operation of Interlacing at all - there is just no way to tell. In a later attempt with Powerstrip installed, Powerstrip was not reporting that interlaced was running, but since powerstip can't change interlaced settings on Intel IGP, I suspect it can't read them either.

I tried the vga port as the primary port, and when I applied my settings I remote-controlled the system via WinVNC. The screen, however, reported an 'Out of range 20kHz'. So on a bit of a whim I installed Powerstrip, and it too was reporting a 20kHz signal.

So in all this I couldn't confirm if the VGA port was outputting the right values or not, and non conclusive as to whether I should continue. But I've not given up....


Lukeyson

[GaijinPunch]

Try using the "other" Port on the 9250. If it doesn't detect a DDC compliant monitor it falls back to the primary output.

Yeah, that worked.  Sort of.  I see the windows boot screen, then nothing.  I might have left it in 1920x1200 though.  Gotta run to work.  Will deal w/ it when I get back. Damn job that feeds me and my family.

[Lukeyson]

From what I see, VGA recognises a load between 'RGB out' and 'RGB Return' pins on the VGA connector.

The Cable we use for VGA-to-Car Screen only uses the 'RGB Out' of the VGA, not the 'RGB Return'. So it looks like my choices are (a) connect the RGB return to common GND or (b) connect a 600Ohm resistor between the 'RGB out' and 'RGB Rtn' lines on the cable in question.

Some references:

(a) Specs of our VGA to Cap Screen cable:  http://www.fordmods.com/forums/BA-Colour-ICC-Video-Input-d38.html
(b) Some old discussions on how a VGA port recognises when a screen is attached: http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/general-hardware-discussion/1763-how-does-video-card-detect-vga-monitor-present.html


Luke

[SailorSat]

'Modeline "640x480@30i" 5.49 640 672 688 720 480 491 493 404 interlace'

That modeline is fauly.
The "404 Line total" is lower than the "480 Line Active"; And the pixelclock seems to low too.

(2) The system only displays access to the VGA port settings when something is connected.

Its 75 Ohms resistors on the RGB OUTs and the RGB GNDs.

With the VGA as the 2nd screen, I received a few 'Out or range 15.7kHz, 50Hz' messages, which makes me think it must have been 800x600 or 1024x768 - even though I was sure I was setting 640x480. Certainly Multires was reporting 640x480. I couldn't confirm the operation of Interlacing at all - there is just no way to tell. In a later attempt with Powerstrip installed, Powerstrip was not reporting that interlaced was running, but since powerstip can't change interlaced settings on Intel IGP, I suspect it can't read them either.

I tried the vga port as the primary port, and when I applied my settings I remote-controlled the system via WinVNC. The screen, however, reported an 'Out of range 20kHz'. So on a bit of a whim I installed Powerstrip, and it too was reporting a 20kHz signal.

So in all this I couldn't confirm if the VGA port was outputting the right values or not, and non conclusive as to whether I should continue. But I've not given up....

I supporse you are using the GMA and not the IEGD driver?
Would be nice if you could provie a screenshot of powertstrip showing 20kHz. Maybe I got an error somewhere in the calculations.

[Lukeyson]

My apologies.

That 404 was a actually 505 with a typo....

This work is still being done on an Intel 945/GMA950 system.

With the lockup issues at 30i (I don't think I understand this bit right yet) I put the following modeline in instead - which as probably already there by default:
Modeline "640x480@60i" 11.32 640 672 712 744 480 491 494 505 interlace
I have attached my Custom15Khz.txt file.

I bridged the RGBout with the RGBRtn lines and the system now recognises that a display is attached to the external VGA port.

I fixed an inadvertent swap of the G and B lines on my adapter cable for the Car Display.

And I have simply twisted HSync and VSync together to get a hacked-up CSync. I will consider assembling a proper Sync circuit from one of these sample circuits at a future date:  http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

My display now appears to sync, it is not rolling, but it has a constant horizontal tear. Does anyone recognise what this is a symptom of? Could it be that the interlacing is not functioning? That's the original cause of my problem on powerstrip and is why I am here after all! Or could it be that I really do need to do more to combine the sync signals correctly? At one point I saw the right side of the image on the left side of the display, and a flick between 16 and 32 bit colour resulted in that torn - but not rolling - static display.

I have attached the image from my screen for reference.


Luke

[Sosetsuken]

Hey luke, does it look sorta like this?

[youtube]-R1CUTwsclI[/youtube]

Sorry bout the crap quality of the video, was done on my crap phone.  Your image looks just like what I have on my screen at the moment. :/

[SailorSat]

Modeline "640x480@60i" 11.32 640 672 712 744 480 491 494 505 interlace
I have attached my Custom15Khz.txt file.

I bridged the RGBout with the RGBRtn lines and the system now recognises that a display is attached to the external VGA port.

I fixed an inadvertent swap of the G and B lines on my adapter cable for the Car Display.

And I have simply twisted HSync and VSync together to get a hacked-up CSync. I will consider assembling a proper Sync circuit from one of these sample circuits at a future date:  http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Try the same modeline with at "-hsync -vsync" at the end.
Most likely your LCD doesn't like positiv sync.

[Lukeyson]

Video with +hsync +vsync 640x480 60i: 

Video with -hsync -vsync same: 

I also tried 30p but it produced a rolling-screen too so it doesn't look like the screen can sync to it.

I know that the screen works with an RGB converter - specifically this one:  http://www.carconverters.com.au/products/Signal_Converter/236.html. I notice that it has 0.7Vp-p on the RGB pins and 3Vp-p on the CSync. So I will check to see what these values are out of normal VGA.

But to me it almost looks like I'm there. There have been others who have managed to get a wire-tied hsync/vsync line to work, but it was out of a different vga card, so I'm open to that being the problem, and I will make a point of working on it ASAP. 

You know, it almost looks like it's all working, but it's just somehow not flagging the right end-of-line and caused that 'static tear'. I haven't come across display anomalies like this to know what may exactly be causing it though.

But my biggest suspicion is that interlace is not working, and I have no idea how to check.


Luke

[Lukeyson]

These are the known-working values from Powerstrip.  I don't suppose any of these values are relevant to the modeline statement are they?

This attached screen is, of course, from a system that Powerstrip can manipulate the interlaced setting.


Luke

[Paul Olson]

I read through most of this thread again, but I still have a couple of questions.

Has anyone had any luck getting this to work in Vista64?

I am looking into buying a newer video card that will be powerful enough to play the AAE vector emulator. Do any of you have any suggestions in the $50-$80 range that also will support all resolutions in soft-15KHz?

Thanks,
Paul

[Lukeyson]

OK, Modeline and the Custom screens on Powerstrip ARE directly related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFree86_Modeline
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/vga2rgb/timings.html

So I tried to generate a Modeline that was the same as in that Powerstrip screen and came up with this:

Modeline "640x480@60i" 12.656 640 672 768 800 480 489 491 525 -interlace

No luck - the screen started scrolling so I lost sync.

I thien tried wiping out all of my custom 640x480 settings to use the default - and it's just the same as before. Vertical Sync is getting a lock, but horizontal sync is out either due to interlacing or my dodgy sync solution.

Is there any other way I can determine whether Interlacing is enabled for a certain resolution? It doesn't show up on any of my selections in MultiRes. I can't use quickres because it only works on the primary screen but from memory when I had the external vga as primary it dodn't show up either.. Interlacing also doesn't appear in the factory Intel driver settings. Any other clues?


Lukeyson

[SailorSat]

Windows doesn't care if resolutions are interlaced or not, nor it will show.
All resolutions with less than 50Hz wil get "flagged" interlaced in the list, even if they are now.

Well... Are you using the GMA oder the IEGD drivers?
Do you have any other equipment to test if the card outputs the right frequency?

To check your wiring you could try 640x480 (i.e. all vertical values halved and "interlace" removed.

I'm pretty sure the GMA can output interlace as I've seen several people use it with 1920x1080i for HD.
However without proper hardware I have to wait right now.
Waiting for the weekend...

[Lukeyson]

Ahh. I thought GMA were for current generation chips and IEGD referred to previous generations.

But it's all about 'User' drivers vs 'Engineering' drivers - or something thereabouts. Gotcha.

The answer is up until now - GMA. And now I know what you're talking about, and found the 92M download for the 9.0.2 Gold IEGD drivers, I'm going to bury my head and learn how this thing works.

I'll be back when I've clawed my way further out of this hole of noobism.


Lukeyson

[Lukeyson]

Bingo!!!

Thanks for making me look further into that IEGD driver! I was able to create a custom driver that listed a 640x480@60i mode, but had to specify 30Hz refresh with Interlaced turn on in the dtd configuration. I am feeling quite good about all this now because that was one hard slog! (It is 1.30am here - I couldn't stop!). The previous issue was almost certainly to do with Interlacing since I still have my twisted-wire hsync/vsync combination circuit. (And yes, I will be fixing that soon.)

If anyone would like me to share what I've learnt so far about the Intel 945G xpress chipset and custom resolutions I'd be more than happy to. I will be writing up my findings with specific focus on my CarPC application and posting them to the Fordmods.com website I listed earlier, and would be happy to drop a copy here if you like.


Lukeyson

[Sosetsuken]

Hey peeps,

I've recently made a SCART(RGB)->VGA adaptor and installed soft15khz (It listed the 3 options and USER) on both the adapters available that had radio boxes.

The problem i'm having is that I can only get certain resolutions to display correctly, like no 320x240 or 640x480, but i can get what looks like widescreen resolutions like 640x244 and other non 4:3 resolutions. (And using "switchres 1" in MAME seems like nothing displays correctly )

I'm using:

ATi Radeon Mobility 9700 64mb (Basically an Upped 9600 mobility)
ATi Catalyst 8.12 Driver
Mitsubushi 60cm TV
SCART(RGB)->VGA adaptor
Windows XP

Would it be the driver?
Does Soft15khz install always or only when it detects it can work?

Any help is much appreciated, thanks

[SailorSat]

I guess your problem is the catalyst, simply TOO new.

Try using http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/previous/radeon/radeonxip-cat65-xp.html ; though I don't know if this includes mobile chipsets.

Back to topic; Well yeah basicaly it "greys out" the install buttons if your drivers is not supported.

[Sosetsuken]

Oh ok, well i've downloaded and modded those 6.5's for use on my radeon mobility.  Just gotta wait for the shops to open now.

Its weird because it let me install soft15khz on 8.12's.

[Sosetsuken]

Hey SailorSat those 6.5's work great I can get up to 512x512 but not over.

I can now get mortal kombat 1 & 2 working without modifying anything! (400 x 254, which is listed as 401x256 in your downloads page?)

How do i add cps2/3 and neogeo resolutions?

384x224 @ 59.63hz/ 320 x 224 @ 59.19hz

Thanks!


EDIT: Got 800x600 working with:

"
PowerStrip timing parameters:
800x600=800,60,80,132,600,32,3,16,16079,15

Generic timing details for 800x600:
HFP=60 HSW=80 HBP=132 kHz=15 VFP=32 VSW=3 VBP=16 Hz=23

VESA detailed timing:
PClk=16079.00 H.Active=800 H.Blank=272 H.Offset=44 HSW=80 V.Active=600 V.Blank=51 V.Offset=32 VSW=3

Linux modeline parameters:
"800x600" 16.079 800 860 940 1072 600 632 635 651 interlace -hsync -vsync
"

using powerstrip, does that explain what my problem might be?

[SailorSat]

For CPS1/2/3 use 392x240, and for NeoGeo use 321x240.

The problem might be that some chipsets tend to "blend out" some resolutions.
Especially on Laptops, at least I had some trouble on my HP notebooks radeon 9600.

[Sosetsuken]

Mortal Kombat II looks gorgeous, just like i remember the arcade screen!

I'll be trying the cps2 and Neogeo rez's out in a sec. 

By "Blended Out" does that mean doesn't accept some?  Does soft15khz suppport most of the mame resolutions on desktop graphics cards?

Thanks heaps SailorSat for making the program and for your help