Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards

[sk8ersublime]

when i plug just the CGA to either the VGA or DVI without the LCD connected I get nothing on the screen. The monitor sounds like it is trying to sync, but all i get is raster.

[Gage]

I'm running soft-15khz and cabMAME and am currently having an issue with a few of my roms, notably The Simpsons and G.I. Joe.  When I run them, they appear to run at a faster speed than normal and are split into four different windows (the "full screen" version of the game, identically displayed in four areas of the screen).

The games were running perfectly on this setup until I added an I-Pac to my existing J-Pac setup (I built a custom 4-player control panel to use with my existing arcade cab).  I'm not sure if something I did during the I-Pac programming caused a MAME shortcut key to be activated or something.

I'm wondering if it has to do with my PC resolution as opposed to the game resolution.  When I run it in my arcade cab, I have the Windows resolution set to 640 x 480.  If I uninstall soft-15khz and run it on a standard LCD monitor at 1280 x 600, Simpsons and GI Joe run in one screen, although it's much smaller than fullscreen.  I was thinking MAME controlled the resolution output, but perhaps it's also tied to what you have your Windows resolution set to as well?

Any ideas?

[moundy]

     I have a multisync monitor(nec xm-2950), an ATI xfx hd 4890, an i7 2600k , xp pro 32 and xp 64 bit, Windows 7, and all the hard drive space you could ask for. I want to build a very stable system to put in a cab I've been building. I mainly want MAME, and older consoles(SNES,NES,Genesis,PS1...etc) and Hyperspin. What would be the best windows OS to use for my setup that would be able to use advantage of soft15khz yet get the most performance? I'm guessing xp 64bit but I'm just not sure. I'm also gonna post a similar thread in groovymame as well about it's use.

[SailorSat]

I'd go for XP64 as long as you can get drivers for everything.

[Paradroid]

G'day.

I'm loving Soft-15kHz on my SCART TVs! So thankful that this tool exists!

I have a few different TVs that I've been playing around with including a 16:9 aspect ratio model. Of course, this isn't very useful for playing classic games but it looks great for playing modern PC games and watching movies.

I'm wondering if it's possible to create an interlaced 16:9 mode for use with Soft-15kHz. I'm hoping for something like 640 × 360 interlaced. I'm completely ignorant to whether this is possible and, if it is, how to go about creating the appropriate modelines.

Any help or advice would be very much appreciated!

Thanks,
Dale

[SailorSat]

Actually I used a 35" 16:9 hantarex for 1280x720i (more like 1280x600 visible at 50Hz) and iirc 1024x576@50i / 848x480@60i.

Changing the number of lines isn't recommended. Rather change the X-resolution.

modeline "1024x576-50i" 20,79 1024 1072 1176 1328 576 580 584 626 interlace -hsync -vsync
modeline "896x512-60i" 18,37 896 928 1024 1152 512 514 520 536 interlace -hsync -vsync

[Paradroid]

Awesome! Thanks SailorSat!

Both those modes worked but, unfortunately, the funky video processing on my Loewe Cantus makes a mess of things. The 896x512 looks weird and while the 1024x576 looks better, 720x480 still looks nicer for some reason. I don't know what's going on inside the TV but it's obviously doing something unfriendly to those modes. They actually look chunkier than the lower resolutions.

Are there any other 16:9 modes I can try?

I guess I'll have to try these on a different 16:9 CRT when I get a chance...

[Markade]

Hello SailorSat!

Having problems again, those time unexpected -_-.

Finally, drop the idea of using a nvidia, and buyed a cheap Ati Radeon HD 4770, GDDR5. I thought that with the Ati there was no problem using Softh15khz... but it does not work with my card.

The older catalyst drivers that I can use is 9.5. When I install the 15khz, reboot the system, and the card still is using 31khz.

Any idea? I've been searching in this forum and others, and all the information I get is that it should work... but it does not.

Thanks for your help!

[SailorSat]

Hm... That's actually strange.
You DO get all the lowres resolutions via quickres?

[Markade]

Hm... That's actually strange.
You DO get all the lowres resolutions via quickres?

Oh my God.

When I changed the resolution with Quickres, i was seeing it on the TV.  I've been fooling for two days with it before asking, and it was that simple...

Thanks a lot SailorSat 

[Paradroid]

Hm... That's actually strange.

Strange, yes, but not surprising to me. Loewes are the easiest SCART TVs to come by in my part of the world (Australia). I've tested out a whole bunch now and they all behave differently (according to the model of the chassis). Some of them auto deinterlace, some have dot crawl, some don't have dot crawl, some interlace on low res modes ( ), some seem to completely resample the image, etc. Seems the older chassis numbers are better for MAME/SCART. Less processing.

So, yes, the low res modes do work on the 16:9 model I tried but it's mixed success across the board with the Loewes. I'll try the modes you gave me on the 4:3 models and see how they behave.

Thanks again for your help!

[Paradroid]

Yep, confirmed: the Loewe Cantus does some weird stuff to those two 16:9 modes. Both resolutions looked glorious (albeit stretched) when tested on my Grundig 70-703 NIC/TOP that I have here. Guess I need to find a 16:9 television that doesn't mess with the picture so much.

[Markade]

By the way, SailorSat, just one thing. I've been trying to set up 2 screen, 1 to the arcade monitor at 15khz using your tool, and the other one to a TFT at 31khz. When I start the computer with both screens, I can't see anything. Do you know if it's possible to do it?

[SailorSat]

Hm... It is possible, but you need to fool around in the registry.
Currently S15K forces detection of all VGA ports.

If you connect a standard monitor via VGA cable, it could work because usually screens communicate with the vga card via DDC and tell them what brand, type of screen and resolution they are. Those DDC-modes have a higher priority.

If you connect a monitor via DVI cable, there will be 3 possible routes (vga1, vga2, dvi1) and most likely you need to select the correct order via forceware/catalyst tools.

Another side note: currently s15k adds the mode definitions for analog AND digital outputs.

[Markade]

I see. I will try, and post any news.

Thanks again!

[alexv]

I want to use this tool, but since bootup will still be in 31khz, is there any risk of damaging my monitor? I have a Wells Gardner K7000.

[Calamity]

Awesome! Thanks SailorSat!

Both those modes worked but, unfortunately, the funky video processing on my Loewe Cantus makes a mess of things. The 896x512 looks weird and while the 1024x576 looks better, 720x480 still looks nicer for some reason. I don't know what's going on inside the TV but it's obviously doing something unfriendly to those modes. They actually look chunkier than the lower resolutions.

Are there any other 16:9 modes I can try?

I guess I'll have to try these on a different 16:9 CRT when I get a chance...

Hi Paradroid, check this thread in case it could be of interest:

http://www.dvdplaza.com.au/forums/showthread.php?s=&t=19396&f=15&pp=15&page=1

Basically, Loewe TVs with chassis Q2500 are preset to de-interlace NTSC 480i signals, and convert them into 480p@60Hz. On the other hand PAL signals seem to follow a different path and are digitally converted into 100 Hz. However you can enable the de-interlacing system for PAL signals too, using the Service Menu (explained in the article), that will convert those signals into 576p@50Hz.

I've just tested this with DVD and Satelite PAL signals via SCART and it works great (L. Articos 32"), however haven't tested it with custom modelines from a PC, so I'd be interested in your results.

[Paradroid]

Hey Calamity! If there's anything in particular you want me to test, just let me know! It's been trial and error so far, working out which SCART TVs are best suited to the task. Just because they look good with analogue television or connected to a DVD player doesn't mean they'll work well with all PC resolutions in my experience!

Currently, I have 3 Loewe TVs (all different chassis numbers), a Grundig and a Metz. The Metz is interesting in that every resolution seems to be interlaced (even the very low ones!) and no resolutions show scanlines. Personally, I don't like that: I love scanlines! However, I imagine some people might prefer that because it makes the image brighter and the colors look more continuous.

Anyway, if there's anything particular you'd like me to try with any of those TVs just holler. The more information available to people getting into this, the better.

[apfelanni]

@paradroid : in case ur metz tv is a 100 hertz modell with chassis 601g , 603 or 605 u can feed it with 640x480 p or 800x600 p via a metz vga-scart cable. i tested it on a metz astral ( flat philips tube with 605 chassis ) and the vga picture is top notch .

[Paradroid]

Interesting! Do you know what the difference between a Metz VGA-SCART cable and a regular home brew VGA-SCART cable is? Perhaps I could make one?

I see in the input menu for the TV that there are options for many different things (S-VIDEO, RGB, etc.) including a "PC" option.

BTW, it's a Metz Linos-S 84TG87. Amazing looking screen (massive!) and nice case design. I just wish it didn't do so much image processing to the lo-res modes. It would be perfect for me otherwise...

[apfelanni]

working in vga mode u can turn everything off . the osd + service osd offer a lot of options. some older chassis may need a firmware update . i upped my linea to the last firmware version via the 9 pin sub d and a serial cable 1:1 cable. solder the cable and try the vga mode. u may be surprised . the original metz cable comes without audio in , so i soldered one with ad audio cables to the scart connector . it works fine . pic shows the first subject , metz linea . i would rate the pic quality 2 , the other astral and kreta with 605 chassis are better . chassis 600g1 also works with vga in . service mode : p+ and p- and press power on . last firmware is 2.41.  if u need it i can upload on rs . my first cable was without sound , now i use such roline vga + audio cables for the metz . the audio wires are included , so no extra audio cable ending in the scart plug . rgb are coax , soldering is a little painful , but quality is better than standard 15 / 15 cables .

[Paradroid]

@apfelanni: Wow! Thanks SO much for putting in all that effort to help me!

I'll definitely check all this out in detail when I get home from work tonight. Much appreciated!

This forum is amazing!

[Paradroid]

Okay, so I've checked out the wiring diagram and rewritten it in English.

Can someone please have a look over what I've done and check if it's correct before I bust out the soldering iron?

apfelanni, I still haven't checked the firmware of my Linos yet but that screenshot you posted has me pretty inspired: the image quality looks awesome! Considering my Linos is impressive due to the massive screen, I'd still love to put it to good use (even though lo-res modes don't work the way I'd hoped them too).

[apfelanni]

nice job with the translation . rgb + h+v sync + the shield / ground wires . u can solder each ground  ( coz usually all grounds are connected on the chassis scart female connector ) or daisy chain them in the scart plug like metz does . 

- solder the cable
- enable pc in osd , sometimes its the bottom , sometimes the top scart plug . it depends on the model .
- set console ( dreamcast , xbox , x360 , wii , whatever to 640x480 p 60 hertz and ur done . 800x600 in 60 hertz is another option.
- cut a 1 dollar audio cable with pc audio plug and solder it to the scart pins r/l/g . metz tvs have good audio amps and speakers , so its worth to spend the extra 10 minutes .
- if the osd shows > pc as an option for av u may not need a firmupdate . older osd dont have that option . updating is easy goin , but it takes half an hour ( with save and verify ) to send all data through the com1 port.   

[Justin]

Question which I couldn't get answered through the FAQ.s:

Is there any benefit of running soft15 on a regular Television set?  I am using a TV via the S-Video input.  My card is a Radeon which has an S-Video out.   

I actually run it at 1024x768 because this is the adequate resolution for HyperSpin, and also MAME runs nicely at 1024x768.  benefit is there is no switching of resolution from Hyperspin to Mame every time you launch a game.

I wonder if with Soft15 I can more precisely output exact number of lines via S-Video?  Am I making any sense?     If there is any opportunity of making things look better, Im all for it.

[MonMotha]

Question which I couldn't get answered through the FAQ.s:

Is there any benefit of running soft15 on a regular Television set?  I am using a TV via the S-Video input.  My card is a Radeon which has an S-Video out.   

I actually run it at 1024x768 because this is the adequate resolution for HyperSpin, and also MAME runs nicely at 1024x768.  benefit is there is no switching of resolution from Hyperspin to Mame every time you launch a game.

I wonder if with Soft15 I can more precisely output exact number of lines via S-Video?  Am I making any sense?     If there is any opportunity of making things look better, Im all for it.

Generally no.  The video card will re-scale it no matter what.  In fact, some of the s-video outputs don't support anything below 640x480p as the "input" to the s-video scaler, anyway.

You *can* combine Soft15k with either the "component" (YPbPr) outputs found on some video cards from ~4-6 years ago or an outboard RGB to S-Video converter.  This would give you complete control over everything, but it's more complicated.

[iori01]

hello,

I have a technical question; as I need a good nvidia card for my new arcade cabinet I don't know which one to chose.

I need 15,24 and 31 Khz in win XP

Do you think a GTX460 + EDID dongle will work ?
Also , is it true that nvidia is limited to 32 modelines ?

(I don't want ATI card, as kof Mira don't work ! )

Thanks for your help.

[SailorSat]

Good one.
Basically my GTX460 worked fine with the dongle last time I tried (using XP).

32 modes limit is true for the "old" format drivers (XP). Haven't tried on the "new" format drivers (Vista/Seven).

[iori01]

Fine, thanks sailorsat.

For this setup , I think I will go for XP 64bits version.
I hope it will be ok, if no will revert back to x86 version.

one last question, is it your dongle on arcadeshop.de ?
If no, where can I bought your dongle ?

Thanks.

[SailorSat]

These are production run dongles, yes.

[orchidius]

Hi there,

I've picked up work again on my never-ending arcade project, and seemingly one of the last hurdles to tackle is the SCART cable and tv setup (been struggling with that one for a while now). The cab now runs off a relatively new core2duo laptop with a Nvidia geforce 7300 GPU. I currently have the following cable setup:

VGA -----------> SCART
1                      15
6                      13
2                      11
7                       9
3                       7
8                       5
9       100ohm     16
5                      18
13    1000ohm     20
14    1000ohm     20
10                     17

But this setup is not working. Here's the picture I'm getting: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/img0788d.jpg/. Could the problem here be that the card is too "new" for the soft15khz tool? Are the drivers not right? Is the cable not right (again)? Could it be fixed with a dongle?

Please help!

[SailorSat]

Hm... Are you sure the TV is on the right channel? (AV-1 or whatever)

You can try if the card is giving the right frequencies by unplugin the SCART cable and plugin a VGA monitor. Once you select 640x480 or any other "low resolution" the VGA screen should either turn off or show something like "frequency out of range".

[orchidius]

This is what I'm getting when I plug in an average CRT computermonitor on just the 15khz setting. It's obviously doing something, but is this the "right" thing?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/img0789nr.jpg/

[apfelanni]

.. and the right scart plug , if u have multiple . sometimes not all of em are rgb compatible .

[orchidius]

TV set has two, tried both.

Also tried my other laptop today, to no avail. It's a Nvidia 6300. Same result.

[apfelanni]

maybe an incompatible forceware version or no forceware installed ?

[orchidius]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is forceware?  Haven't really had to fiddle with that in the past...

[apfelanni]

hehe .. its an nvidia driver package like ati's catalyst .. without it soft 15 wont work . find a fitting version for ur card . sometimes older driver packs work better than newer ones . 5 minutes reading can save u a lot of try n error testing. 

[orchidius]

Please tell me where to start reading then I've been looking around, but apart from this forum there doesn't really seem to be thàt much around? In a previous setup I did have to adjust my catalyst drivers, but that situation was completely different. 15Khz wouldn't let me "instal" the 15khz mode. In this particular scenario, everything SEEMS to be working properly, but obviously it's not...

[apfelanni]

page 1 post 1 points to the home of soft 15 k . pickin a card known as well working might be a good start .. dunno how ur 7xxx nvidia behaves .. the only nvidia i testet were 5200 agp and 6100 onboard and both were doin fine . once a 7xxx onboard caused a lot of trouble , so i decided to put in a ati 4350 pci express . for classic gaming cheap 9200 / 9250 agp atis are a good choice.

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten