Mame Devs Part of BYOAC?

[RayB]

We should all be referring to our cabs as Emulator Cabs anyways... They can run all sorts of software, not just the M word variety.

[SGT]

Here is an amusing though somewhat dated commentary regarding the state of friction between the devs and the users:

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/mameover.htm

-SGT

[FrizzleFried]

Very interesting....especially being a newb at this all (my first MAME version was .106 I do believe it was).

[Santoro]

Thanks for popping in Aaron. Your post is level-headed and reasonable - I think it will help settle things down a bit.  These flare-ups make many of us a bit nervous.  It would really suuuck to have MAME (edit: or BYOAC!) derailed by some political crap that went badly.

 

[Aurich]

Here is an amusing though somewhat dated commentary regarding the state of friction between the devs and the users:

If by amusing you mean "something that will make you lose any respect you might have once held for the author after he demonstrates that he he is an ungrateful idiot" then yes, that's accurate.

Who is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to upgrade to the latest version of MAME, for free no less? Don't like what they did to Asteroids? Don't update. If that attitude was that prevalent around here I'd stop reading and posting, because that sort of selfish whining isn't anything I would ever want to be a part of.

I think it's great that you can compile high scores back in, but understand that you're doing it as a personal tweak that runs counter to the goals of the people who are putting in all the hard work that enables this to all happen. Show a little ---smurfing--- gratitude. People like Randy get all kinds of love and props for making products that he sells to the community (good for him!) and yet when you can get MAME for free it's nothing but whine whine whine even though every version that's ever come out is freely available straight from the source if you don't like the changes.

[Zakk]

I thought it was Davr that was cheesed.

I was mostly cheesed because Aaron was cheesed and nobody seemed to care.  Generally such a sharp word from the head of MameDev would have at least caused everyone to slowdown and think a little instead of just 1 or 2.

No idea why RB was cheesed since the post was deleted.

Well, I'll never be accused of asskissing, but I like to think that personally I'd be a bit upset with myself if I purposely went against the wishes of mamedev.  Never been a goal of mine, and likely never will...and I'm fairly certain I echo the sentiments for the majority of the core hobbyists here. 

[SGT]

If by amusing you mean "something that will make you lose any respect you might have once held for the author after he demonstrates that he he is an ungrateful idiot" then yes, that's accurate.

No, I meant amusing as in humorous.  Relax a little.  That commentary is probably almost two years old.  The battle was already fought in other message boards over that commentary.  The link provides a dissenting opinion that I find very amusing.  It is fine with me if you do not agree.

I think it's great that you can compile high scores back in, but understand that you're doing it as a personal tweak that runs counter to the goals of the people who are putting in all the hard work that enables this to all happen.

I disagree.  I think putting high scores back in for your own personal use does not run counter to the goals of anyone.  Providing a compiled version for others may.

-SGT

[Aurich]

I disagree.  I think putting high scores back in for your own personal use does not run counter to the goals of anyone.  Providing a compiled version for others may.

I'm not sure even that's a problem, MAME32FX seems like it gets by OK. I use it myself. I'm not anti high score at all. I'm just saying that people should show a modicum of restraint and respect at the very least. It's the sense of entitlement that irritates me.

[Kremmit]

Well, I'll never be accused of asskissing, but I like to think that personally I'd be a bit upset with myself if I purposely went against the wishes of mamedev.  Never been a goal of mine, and likely never will...and I'm fairly certain I echo the sentiments for the majority of the core hobbyists here. 

That's the nub of it, right there.  It's always the clueless noobs that go rampaging around hollering about everything that's wrong and asking why such 'n such doesn't work the way they're sure it should, totally oblivious of the ten thousand times the question has been asked and answered.  Especially on MAMEWorld, for some reason.  Meanwhile, the much larger group of good-mannered, non-bonehead hobbyists AREN'T making much noise over there, and so the morons become the "face" of our side of the hobby.

[Boz]

In any social circle, depending on how many people are in it, you will always have a few people who are always just a *bit* outside of the norm and who tend to raise a few eyebrows from time to time. BYOAC has them. The Mamedevs have them. The BYOAC and hobbyist community is larger by several orders of magnitude than the mamedevs community. It would make sense then that we have a higher number of those off-center people. While the number is probably proportional, it's easy to see why there is a general sentiment from the devs about people here or a disdain, in general, about the hobbyist.

It's odd though. I've never been involved with a user community where two side who have apparently the same goals (preservation), but could be so at odds with one another over the most rediculously unimportant issues.

Makes me wonder if this is one big Irish family.


BTW, who's Saint? 

[Crowquill]

I agree with MKChamp, but I have to say, calling R.Belmont out on "being an ass" is not going to help.  If he is rude, he's going to be rude.  If he doesn't like BYOAC, folks here ganging up on him and yelling are not likely to help.  This is how it goes though.. one person steps up and no one backs down and then we create this perceived "feud."  It's asinine if you ask me.

Agreed. The problem I see is that when a threat is made, the immediate response is rarely rational. I was pretty fired up when I posted this morning. The "racial slur" comment and stating directly that he was a jerk were a bit over-the-top. He may have been fired up and responding irrationally to the deleted post. Maybe he's just looking to pick a fight with this one response. Maybe he's looking to pick a fight with ALL of his responses. We'll never know.

Coincidentally when I was looking some stuff up on MAWS earlier I saw R.Belmont's name at least a half-dozen times.

BTW, does anyone else find it ironic to get a "can't we all just get along" post from "pointdablame"?

[pointdablame]

I agree with MKChamp, but I have to say, calling R.Belmont out on "being an ass" is not going to help.  If he is rude, he's going to be rude.  If he doesn't like BYOAC, folks here ganging up on him and yelling are not likely to help.  This is how it goes though.. one person steps up and no one backs down and then we create this perceived "feud."  It's asinine if you ask me.

Agreed. The problem I see is that when a threat is made, the immediate response is rarely rational. I was pretty fired up when I posted this morning. The "racial slur" comment and stating directly that he was a jerk were a bit over-the-top. He may have been fired up and responding irrationally to the deleted post. Maybe he's just looking to pick a fight with this one response. Maybe he's looking to pick a fight with ALL of his responses. We'll never know.

Coincidentally when I was looking some stuff up on MAWS earlier I saw R.Belmont's name at least a half-dozen times.

BTW, does anyone else find it ironic to get a "can't we all just get along" post from "pointdablame"?

You seem to have realized it, but just to be clear... my comments were not directly pointed to you or anyone else.  I was simply making the point that arguing with someone who already doesn't "like you" (for whatever reason) will rarely improve the situation.

If R.Belmont doesn't like "us" (BYOAC), then members of the community calling him a doody head or whatever the case may be is likely to change his feelings.

As for my name, I guess I'm pointing blame at those who think it's smart to "poke the beast" heh 

[DrewKaree]

BTW, who's Saint? 

I heard his real name is Dennis Dowling




















 

[Tiger-Heli]

Okay, I'm marshall on MW forums, so I can tell you what happend.

Leezer updated hi-score.dat to MAME 112u2 or so.  He also uploaded a custom compile based on MKChamp's source files updates.

That got the attention of Twisty at MW.  Several reasons - the build  not only saves hi-scores, it also disables startup screens - thus a violation of the MAME TM, along with the fact that source data files were not included, an extension to the MAME license (derivative builds) to allow re-posting of the binary was never applied for nor granted, etc. etc.

Someone else posted that MAME's save state code did not work well for maintaining hi-scores from build to build.

Someone else posted that it was very simple to modify the source to add hi-score support back in.

I posted a link to MKChamp's thread on here where he lists the the suggested source code modifications.

That prompted Arbee's infamous "You *really* don't want to wave a red flag in front of the devs like that. We made BYOAC possible, we can unmake it." comment.

Out of respect for Arbee, the devs in general, and the hard work that goes into maintaining MAME, I deleted my post - There wasn't a good way to say:  "Deleted link to source code modifications info" or anything, so I thought it best just to remove the information that Arbee was complaining about.

Basically that pretty much summarizes it.

[MYX]

You know, there is a rules of the forum sticky. I think it should be a mandatory read before their membership is accepted. Perhaps a have read and understand the rules of this site. (things like demanding answers on their first post without first searching).
It might be mentioned that newbs not address a MAMEDev until they have some sort of understanding as to what their intentions are with the project. We do get nailed as a whole because a newb starts shooting off about THEIR needs even though it goes totally against the MAME goals.
I have been using MAME for many years now. I am too grateful because I am able to play all the games I thought were lost. Then, when MikeQ got permission from mamedevs to make powermame, it was sort of open season because he was asking for ideas. Many of our ideas came to fruition. (too bad it died.)

For those of us who are still new to BYOAC, can anyone please elaborate who Saint is?

I got to meet Saint at an Arcade Auction. Real nice guy. Much taller than his avatar lets on (kinda one of those things like object in mirror is closer than it looks). I took a picture of him as as it is rare to spot him. He only comes out once a year to check if he sees his shadow.





As I understand it, he lives holed up in the mountains of North Carolina. Something about a secret fortress with submarine access. 

[SavannahLion]

You know, there is a rules of the forum sticky. I think it should be a mandatory read before their membership is accepted.

Like EULA's, very very few people read them. Forcing someone to read a FAQ before membership acceptance will weed out a lot of chaf, but it's going to prevent a lot of potentially good members from ever joining. A good example are forums that are so restrictive that they don't even allow non-members to read posts. When I encounter forums like that, I go elsewhere for what I want. Sure, membership on those forums may be free. But if all I want is to do a search on the forums for information, why restrict it to only members. And yes, I've joined a few just to see the information and it's usually a waste of time for the registration.

Perhaps a have read and understand the rules of this site. (things like demanding answers on their first post without first searching).
It might be mentioned that newbs not address a MAMEDev until they have some sort of understanding as to what their intentions are with the project. We do get nailed as a whole because a newb starts shooting off about THEIR needs even though it goes totally against the MAME goals.

That's like McDonalds preventing me from eating at Taco Bell. You can recommend that new members not contact MAMEDevs, but you can't outright prevent someone from doing so.

Rather than restricting the actions of people up front, try gentle moderating instead. Add a new category (I'll call it Recycle Bin) that isn't viewable by non-members. In the RB, any member can view and freely post just like any other category. If a member acts up, gets out of control, has a persistent tendency not to use the Search feature or generally just annoys other members, then their account can be restricted so the only place they can post is in the RB. Those restricted members can still interact with other members only in the context of RB. For the other members, they can choose to read and interact within RB with the restricted members. If the members show improvement, they can be "released" and be free to post in other categories.

It works pretty well since it A) it doesn't make the automatic assumption that you're going to be a ---fudgesicle--- up, members have to show they can't follow rules. B) it still allows restricted members who shouldn't be banned, but can't interact well with others, a place to ask questions and hopefully recieve answers. And C) it's a much gentler way of enforcing rules rather than making assumptions about a person.

Just a suggestion.

[DrewKaree]

A good example are forums that are so restrictive that they don't even allow non-members to read posts. When I encounter forums like that, I go elsewhere for what I want.

What you're missing is that a forum ISN'T like a EULA, it's a place many choose to gather and share information at.  It's not a STATIC piece of information (which is what a EULA) is.  A FAQ is simply a small PART of a forum - a list of frequently asked questions - that for the most part, remains static, with very little input or change, unlike the rest of the forum.

What you're also missing is the fact that the setup you describe is done for a reason, and your acknowledgment of what you choose to do simply verifies that the method works - they want people who will at least take the token step of registering.  I'm a member of 2 forums that do just that, neither of which are very useful if you're NOT a member.  The value they offer after registering is beyond anything I can imagine, and the combination of the two has saved me countless hours of frustration and wasted time.  The things they offer also simply do not exist elsewhere for the same price to me (free), nor are questions or problems answered and resolved as quickly.

The point is that you find value in certain things, yet haven't figured out that your values are not everyone else's, and that the chosen method by a few sites keeps out people who don't share the same values as those members.  You view it as a loss, they see it as a win. 

Perspective is all about how you look at something

[SavannahLion]

From the way you write it's like you're not actually reading my posts in their entirety. I never stated a FAQ is like a EULA. I'm saying that, like EULA's, few people read FAQs, especially noobs. If you want to force anybody to read anything, make them read the, "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way," document.

As for forum membership, I've been a member of countless forums, BBBs, newsgroups, whatever. My passkey has over 100 viable entries across a variety of sites for a variety of subjects, some of which I pay for membership. So don't try to write me off as someone who doesn't know their ---Cleveland steamer---.

Here is my point. Most information is available in some form or another across the net. Forums serve one role in collecting this information into one location. By an extension of that role, they assist in compiling difficult to find information. There have been countless times I've searched for answers and the only information I've found was in a forum, BBB or even a newsgroup. Most of the time, I bookmark the site and if I find enough answers as time progresses, I usually register. In some instances, I'll even *GASP* pay a bit of money for that registration.

But when a forum is closed to non-member views, what does that accomplish? If I register, there's no guarantee that the forum will have the information I want. I can ask my question, but to ask it properly, you need to lurk or else it just defeated the silly registration scheme. Yes, I recognize that some forums are closed for a good reason, I'm a member of some of those very same forums. But those forums have very specific membership requirements and they offer very specific information.

From what I've read in your writing, unless there are very specific requirements (NDA, proprietary, personal info, etc) about the forum in question, it's nothing that can't be accomplished by an open-to-view/register-to-post system. Even a partial open-to-view forum harnesses more than a completely closed one, I run one of those too.

I don't want to come off as an ---uvula---, but I'd appreciate it if you read my posts in their entire context. I try to read yours in their entire context, but I'm secure enough to admit I miss the point on ocassion. 

[CheffoJeffo]

SL -- who said that we should restrict viewing the forums ?

[Boz]

BTW, who's Saint? 

I heard his real name is Dennis Dowling

AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHH... Can I never escape this nightmare?   

[SavannahLion]

SL -- who said that we should restrict viewing the forums ?

You know, I did get way off point on that one didn't I?

I didn't intend to focus so much on restricting views on forums. I was originally referring to MYX's suggestion to make reading the FAQ mandetory. In retrospect, I did misread the part about not contacting the MAMEDev's but it was too late to take it back after Drew answered. Oh well, I dig my own holes.

You can't really force people to do anything, much less read a FAQ, EULA, or anything of the sort. Coercing people to read the FAQ achieves much better results. BYOAC does it right, in one way, by noting the FAQ has bookmarks of interest. The bookmarks alone saved me a lot of Google time.

To be fair though, I didn't register because of the forums, I registered because of the Wiki. But since the Wiki is oddly restricted at work, I'm left to my own devices here until I get home.

[Boz]

Can everyone hear that?

Saint's heavy footsteps are getting louder.

[FrizzleFried]

Aaron Giles said...

* If someone wants to maintain a build of MAME with hiscore.dat support in it, please by all means do it. Just follow the rules and things will be fine. If such a build turns into the "game players'" port of MAME, even better. I'd personally welcome such a derivative, as it would be presumably built by and for people who are interested in the issues that people complain about here.

How is that any different than providing a link to the DIFFs?   Hell,  people are less inclined to compile their own so it would get less exposure.  Are the diffs themselves a part of MAME and under the same Terms of Use or are they something 3rd party that then gets compiled in to MAME?

[Tiger-Heli]

You know, there is a rules of the forum sticky. I think it should be a mandatory read before their membership is accepted. Perhaps a have read and understand the rules of this site. (things like demanding answers on their first post without first searching).
It might be mentioned that newbs not address a MAMEDev until they have some sort of understanding as to what their intentions are with the project. We do get nailed as a whole because a newb starts shooting off about THEIR needs even though it goes totally against the MAME goals.

Read my explanation again.  I am not a newb on MW or certainly on this forum.  I was trying to post a link to source changes on a public MW forum, but the changes were somewhat against the spirit of the MAME license, and one of the devs objected and I removed the link.  Simple enough, no hard feelings, problem solved.

[Tiger-Heli]

Aaron Giles said...

* If someone wants to maintain a build of MAME with hiscore.dat support in it, please by all means do it. Just follow the rules and things will be fine. If such a build turns into the "game players'" port of MAME, even better. I'd personally welcome such a derivative, as it would be presumably built by and for people who are interested in the issues that people complain about here.

How is that any different than providing a link to the DIFFs?   Hell,  people are less inclined to compile their own so it would get less exposure.  Are the diffs themselves a part of MAME and under the same Terms of Use or are they something 3rd party that then gets compiled in to MAME?

I can't speak for Aaron, but I will give my take on this.

Posting a link to the diff's that add high-score support back in would apparently be acceptable to Aaron, and a game players version of MAME is basically what we had with PowerMAME (RIP).  Arbee, smf, probably Haze and some of the other devs didn't like it, and therefore, (in retrospect) it probably was not a good idea to post a link to it in a public forum that they frequent - not a violation of the forum (MW) rules, but more of a social faux paux.

Posting a compiled binary with hi-score support added and using MAME in the name (basically what Leezer was doing) or not making a link to the source code changes would require coordination with Aaron over the new MAME trademark and licensing rules.

The source data changes that I posted links to also remove nag screens and change the behaviour of the crosshairs in gun games and some of the inputs.  PowerMAME considered just adding a mame.ini option line to turn off the nag screens (leaving them on by default) and was told that the MAME license did not allow it.  I'm not sure if the binary could have been released legally with the option to not show the nag screens and the name changed to not reference MAME (MikeQ's emu or BYOAC-ARC-EMU), but you still have issues with re-using the mame code in a non-licensed product.  (And bottom line, we don't want to do something that prompts MAMEdev to discontinue public releases of the project, which could ultimately be the result).

AFAIK, modifying the source code and posting source code patches and links to the source code patches is acceptable, but probably best not to do it on basically a MAMEdev forum.  I would not have announced it on the MAME\General Serious board, but since it was a MW News Submission topic already dealing with it, I (incorrectly) thought it was appropriate.

Perhaps Aaron will clarify his stance and I would like to hear his views on the subject.

[saint]

(I'm not *that* fat!)

Can everyone hear that?

Saint's heavy footsteps are getting louder.

[blueznl]

The sound of steel capped reinforced boots carries a looooong way...   

[saint]

Heh.

MAME & BYOAC
http://arcadecontrols.com/BYOAC-and-MAME.shtml

--- saint

[MYX]

I am not a newb on MW or certainly on this forum.  I was trying to post a link to source changes on a public MW forum, but the changes were somewhat against the spirit of the MAME license, and one of the devs objected and I removed the link.  Simple enough, no hard feelings, problem solved.

Naw, ye got it all wrong, I was not aiming that at you one bit. I know you have been around and doing much good for this comunity and you knowledge of "stuff" (didn't want to write it all out) is priceless. I was more or less venting about the newb mentality and somewhat overly strong feeling that they are somehow entitled to our time and answers. Pisses me off. i had nor inentions of joining this forum. I had never done one before. I really got the majority of my fine education in the Arcade arts through the main website. then I srarted moving up to the heavier stuff, and now look at me, I wave to check if my new freakin phone can access the BYOAC forum before i buy it. (sad really). But none the less I know that your work and intentions here have been good and I myself have benifited fom yer info. So please know that was not aimed towards you.

But while I am back on the topic...(this is where everyone leaves the room) I say we continue to raz any newb with faulty that would never work. If it takes 8 posts or whatever to sell stuff. I think that there should be 8 posts in comversations before they can post. (cue prideful drum and horns dramatic presidential music now) So, if they a question that is more than silly and clearly on the search, then I say slap 'em with your pimp hand and feed em a load of bull schtukis. "Why wont my monitor turn on"...Have you tried adjusting your flywheel, or flux capacitors? Perheps it is the p136a space modyoulaetor. Have you replaced the wires with poly vinyl choride? The old stuff just wont work anymore. Becareful of the old leaf type button because they put off noxious gasses. 

Or worse, the kind of stuff done in middle school. They ask a question. The reply is something like hey do you hear someone speaking here? MMMmm nope, I hear nothing, just sounds like blowing wind.

Well that's all for me. I am up WAY past my bed time. 5 year old ADD boys are nothing but parent abbuse when there has been no sleep.

[Tiger-Heli]

Naw, ye got it all wrong, I was not aiming that at you one bit.

Okay, thanks!

So, if they a question that is more than silly and clearly on the search, then I say slap 'em with your pimp hand and feed em a load of bull schtukis. "Why wont my monitor turn on"...Have you tried adjusting your flywheel, or flux capacitors?

Errm, I don't agree.  I think you are mainly being facetious, but the problem is newb's who actually do try to learn will say "I thought I could just test with a known good power supply, but MYX told Newb-b that he should adjust the flywheel first, so now I'm confused."  I see one of my main efforts on BYOAC to be preventing mis-information.

Or worse, the kind of stuff done in middle school. They ask a question. The reply is something like hey do you hear someone speaking here? MMMmm nope, I hear nothing, just sounds like blowing wind.

I like that better than the first suggestion, but still.  I guess it just doesn't seem that long ago that I made my first post on here, which was something to the effect of "What is the difference between a 4 and 8 way joystick, and which is better?"  (Not do I need both or when, which is better?).

So I feel a little bit of sympathy for the newbs.

[Kaytrim]

I guess it just doesn't seem that long ago that I made my first post on here, which was something to the effect of "What is the difference between a 4 and 8 way joystick, and which is better?"  (Not do I need both or when, which is better?).

So I feel a little bit of sympathy for the newbs.

We were all noobs at one time or another.  It just as been longer for some of us.  And some of us are still noobs in one or several areas.  I wouldn't know a flyback transformer from a degausing coil.  However I do know what interfaces can do what and what controls are better for certain purposes.

[Zakk]

I guess it just doesn't seem that long ago that I made my first post on here, which was something to the effect of "What is the difference between a 4 and 8 way joystick, and which is better?"  (Not do I need both or when, which is better?).

So I feel a little bit of sympathy for the newbs.

We were all noobs at one time or another.  It just as been longer for some of us.  And some of us are still noobs in one or several areas.  I wouldn't know a flyback transformer from a degausing coil.  However I do know what interfaces can do what and what controls are better for certain purposes.

You can lick a degaussing coil.

[DrewKaree]

I guess it just doesn't seem that long ago that I made my first post on here, which was something to the effect of "What is the difference between a 4 and 8 way joystick, and which is better?"  (Not do I need both or when, which is better?).

So I feel a little bit of sympathy for the newbs.

We were all noobs at one time or another.  It just as been longer for some of us.  And some of us are still noobs in one or several areas.  I wouldn't know a flyback transformer from a degausing coil.  However I do know what interfaces can do what and what controls are better for certain purposes.

You can lick a degaussing coil.

While standing in a puddle

[tetsu96]

You can lick a degaussing coil.

While standing in a puddle