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Author Topic: To upgrade or not to upgrade?  (Read 3101 times)

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rubberpoultry

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To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« on: March 12, 2007, 03:11:43 pm »
I've only had my MAME cabinet since about December, and I see there is an update out for MAME now. How many of you upgrade right away, and how many wait? Is upgrading tricky? Do I need all new roms (for all of the boards I own :))?

I'm leery at this point, but I wanted to hear some other opinions.


ChadTower

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2007, 03:12:40 pm »

If there isn't a compelling reason to do so, don't bother.  If there is a compelling reason then you already know you're going to do it.

Kaytrim

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2007, 03:17:55 pm »
If you really want to upgrade your MAME software getting the program is easy.  Updating your rom files is another matter.  There is a tool out there called CLRMAME that will help in this. http://www.clrmame.com/  It can be difficult to use but there is some documentation on the site.  Be sure you backup your roms before you update them in case you mess things up.  I believe you can even downgrade your roms using this program as well.  I have never tested it out though so I could tell you for sure.  You can also find any version of MAME on the mame dev site. http://mamedev.org/oldrel.html

TTFN  :cheers:
Kaytrim

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2007, 03:32:15 pm »
This is just the sort of thing that I would research at [romsite link redacted] I just registered there last night, to find some of the preview screens for my games, and it seems like a place where all of your upgrading questions can be answered too.  They have a few good tutorials on making sure all of your stuff is up-to-date and standardized. I learned how to use CLRMAME in the process and while it is a little cryptic, I THINK I did it right.

Good Luck,
Brian
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:30:54 am by PL1 »

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2007, 04:04:27 pm »
For me, I upgrade the moment they release a new version...including the 'u' releases. I guess I have a little OCD when it comes to MAME. I have 2 main reasons for immediately upgrading:
1) Authenticity. I want my mame machine to run games as authentic as they can be. Trying to have that 'close' to real feel of the arcade. Otherwise I could just put an atari 2600 and play it's version of Donkey Kong.
2) I know down the road some major improvement or game will be incorporated into MAME that would justify an upgrade and it's alot harder updating your rom sets when you are several versions back. It's much easier to keep your rom set up to date when you just need a handful of updated roms as oppose to several hundred.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2007, 06:24:02 pm »
I haven't updated since .9 and have been completely happy.

If it's solid and plays what you want, why mess with it ? It is NOT like you're playing the 2600 version of Donkey Kong.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2007, 08:49:47 pm »
The last improvement that was valid for me was .99, when Robotron was fixed, and the Golden Tee games were in. That last few releases have been going backwards in my opinion. Higher and higher system specs with negligible improvements and added games.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 09:24:15 pm »
Some of ya are, like, the exact opposite of some at MAMEWORLD : ask 'em a question, and if you aren't using the most current sub-release of the current version, they get tetchy.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 09:46:30 pm »
Oh yea, and they stripped out highscore.dat for that Savestate BS (yea, I know it's fixable, but it wasn't broke!)

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 10:18:31 pm »
Bah, to follow the old addage, if it aint broke dont fix it. 

I used .055 for many years until I got the CHDS and at the time "up to date" computer.  All I needed was Ms. Pacman.  Now all I really need is Ms Pacman and Joust, but the others dont hurt. 

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 10:37:52 pm »
Thanks for the posts guys. I think I'll hold off.

If they ever get Star Wars Trilogy working, I'd definitely go for the upgrade.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 11:36:41 pm »
Well, there were some issues that would arise with hiscore.  Also, whoever was doing it stopped, is what I remember, so they phased it out.  Though I don't have more than a few hundred games, and only several I play often (trying to change that), some of these either weren't available or not in good form in versions lower than .90 or so. The effects in the old video scheme just sucked.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 02:22:08 am »
Never upgrade the mame version on a complete and working cabinet. Especially if the machine has been done a year or two. An upgrade will add new games that you probably won't have the processor power to play, and you will find that some games that you were previously able to play are now running too slow.

My blanket answer for what mame version to use is .55. .55 was at the height of speed for Mame and had almost everything anyone would want to play other than 3d fighters. My more complicated answer is to use the version of mame that came out a few months before your processor did.
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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 04:30:34 pm »
Generally - I update when there is a major improvement - The artwork update of 0.62 (bezel art) was a good example, and the next one of 0.107 (different artwork views and artwork utilizes your graphics card), and adding dual mouse support would be major ones.

Some major changes aren't improvements though, so it's tough to know.  For example, removal of sound samples killed the sound in most games for about 40 versions or so.

I haven't updated since .9 and have been completely happy.
Really? (Ten years ago??? - http://www.mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php?title=MAME_0.9) - At least you have Zaxxon and Space Invaders working.  Seriously, they added a lot of cool games like Galaga and Centipede between 0.9 and 0.36 or so, but as you said, if it plays what you want  :laugh2:

Quote from: shorthair
Some of ya are, like, the exact opposite of some at MAMEWORLD : ask 'em a question, and if you aren't using the most current sub-release of the current version, they get tetchy.

Different groups with different goals.  Most users here are not that software or computer-literate - they just want to play the games (not totally true, but in-general).  MAMEWORLD hosts the main MAME dev forums.  The devs get tired of exchanges like these:

Poster:  Galaga doesn't make the correct explosion sound.
Dev: It does here.  What's wrong with it?
Poster:  It doesn't happen at all . . . BTW, I'm using MAME 0.56.
Dev:  It was added in MAME 0.85, we think it works in 0.113u1, let us know if it doesn't.


Quote from: rubberpoultry
If they ever get Star Wars Trilogy working, I'd definitely go for the upgrade.

According to MAWS it's been working since June of 2005:
21st June 2005: Ville Linde - I dug up Supermodel after over a year and ran some test runs with Sega Rally 2. This helped me to find a small bug in the MPC106 emulation. Fixing that small problem had some very nice results. Now both Sega Rally 2 and Star Wars Trilogy are working in MAME!

Of course, now what you need is the latest quad-core Intel processor with liquid nitrogen cooling rig so you can overclock it to 20Ghz and get 40 FPS or so in swtrilgy, but it'll be working when you do that.  (Or on the computers five years from now).

Quote from: shorthair
Also, whoever was doing it stopped, is what I remember, so they phased it out.

Not true at all.  Leezer was pretty happy when MKChamp released his source code patches to add it back in.  Hi-Score was originally part of core MAME and MAMEdev did not like it b/c it was not authentic and was basically a hack to the MAME core.  It was removed sometime around 0.29 and they came up with the external hiscore.dat file around 0.34.  But, it would cause problems with some games and they would get bug reports on MAMETesters about problems that went away if you didn't have hiscore.dat, so about two years before the release of 0.107, Aaron announced that hiscore.dat support would be phased out in a year to give people time to adapt the drivers to the new save-state code.  Nothing much happened with that, since high-score support was still enabled, so he finally had enough and removed it to force developlment on the save-state support.
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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 04:40:20 pm »
I haven't updated since .9 and have been completely happy.
Really? (Ten years ago??? - http://www.mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php?title=MAME_0.9) - At least you have Zaxxon and Space Invaders working.  Seriously, they added a lot of cool games like Galaga and Centipede between 0.9 and 0.36 or so, but as you said, if it plays what you want  :laugh2:

Got me ... 0.90.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2007, 04:40:52 pm »
Quote
According to MAWS it's been working since June of 2005:
21st June 2005: Ville Linde - I dug up Supermodel after over a year and ran some test runs with Sega Rally 2. This helped me to find a small bug in the MPC106 emulation. Fixing that small problem had some very nice results. Now both Sega Rally 2 and Star Wars Trilogy are working in MAME!

Of course, now what you need is the latest quad-core Intel processor with liquid nitrogen cooling rig so you can overclock it to 20Ghz and get 40 FPS or so in swtrilgy, but it'll be working when you do that.  (Or on the computers five years from now).

So what's the secret? I've got the version of MAME just prior to this release, and I can't get it to work. I have a dual 3.2Ghz processor, and it stutters with no sound when I run it.



ahofle

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2007, 04:42:37 pm »
You just quoted the secret!

Quote
Of course, now what you need is the latest quad-core Intel processor with liquid nitrogen cooling rig so you can overclock it to 20Ghz and get 40 FPS or so in swtrilgy, but it'll be working when you do that.  (Or on the computers five years from now).

rubberpoultry

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2007, 04:45:23 pm »
You just quoted the secret!

Quote
Of course, now what you need is the latest quad-core Intel processor with liquid nitrogen cooling rig so you can overclock it to 20Ghz and get 40 FPS or so in swtrilgy, but it'll be working when you do that.  (Or on the computers five years from now).


So why do they claim that it works then?

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2007, 05:03:06 pm »
You just quoted the secret!

Quote
Of course, now what you need is the latest quad-core Intel processor with liquid nitrogen cooling rig so you can overclock it to 20Ghz and get 40 FPS or so in swtrilgy, but it'll be working when you do that.  (Or on the computers five years from now).


So why do they claim that it works then?

Because technically it does. It's being emulated 100% correctly, it just demands A LOT of resources to do so.
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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2007, 05:53:05 pm »
.107 was a must have personally because I use the new PNG bezel overlays to make custom bezels for the letterboxing I get with the handful of must-have horizontal games on my vertical monitor.

Then again I'm constantly trying to reduce the number of ROMS on my cab, so worrying about what's up to date isn't really a concern for me. I'm at 115 and working towards 100.

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2007, 08:58:46 pm »
I've looked a little, and can't seem to find a simple list of what games are supported and working in which versions.  Can somebody point me to it?  I would like to choose the version based on the compatible games and the speed.  If I roll back the Mame program itself will the Roms from the current release still work with it? I realize the unsupported games won't, what I mean is will the Donkey Kong from a .113 set work with .107 etc?  I haven't had too many problems with speed but I sometimes get a sort of "wipe" effect when playing scrolling games, will a less processor hungry version solve this?

Any help would be great.

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2007, 01:37:30 am »
I've looked a little, and can't seem to find a simple list of what games are supported and working in which versions.  Can somebody point me to it?  I would like to choose the version based on the compatible games and the speed.  If I roll back the Mame program itself will the Roms from the current release still work with it? I realize the unsupported games won't, what I mean is will the Donkey Kong from a .113 set work with .107 etc? 

If you roll back, some roms may be broken if they changed sometime between the two versions.  In short, it's not safe to assume your 113 set will work with a previous release.

Quote
I haven't had too many problems with speed but I sometimes get a sort of "wipe" effect when playing scrolling games, will a less processor hungry version solve this?

Try enabling triplebuffering -- that should help.


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Re: To upgrade or not to upgrade?
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2007, 08:09:32 am »
So what's the secret? I've got the version of MAME just prior to this release, and I can't get it to work. I have a dual 3.2Ghz processor, and it stutters with no sound when I run it.
At first I read that as the version just prior to the July 2005 release, but re-reading it, I assume you mean 0.112.

As for your next question, you have to understand the MAME program and their philosophy.  They used to have a statement to the effect of "Being able to actually play the games is just a nice side effect."  I used to brush this off as semi-trite CYA in case of copyright lawsuit stuff, but reading some of the dev's postings in this and other forums where they don't really need to keep up a front, I'm convinced this is how they view it.

In other words - if MAME uses an overlay for the starfield in Galaga, but it looks identical to the actual starfield that the arcade PCB generates, Galaga is not working.  If Star Wars Trilogly runs at 4 FPS on the latest hardware, but does everything that it should at the correct time (in-game) - it is working.  Also, if the real arcade PCB displayed garbage on the screen at a certain point, and MAME displays all the sprites without the "Garbage", MAME will consider the game to not be working correctly because of this.

Also, if MAME can emulate the games more accurately at the expense of playability on older hardware, they will change it in a heartbeat.  That is largely what we have been seeing with MAME from 0.55 to current as far as why games run slower and require faster computers to play now.

In short, MAME is the most accurate and robust of the emulators, but not the best for playing games.  Emulators like RAINE and (to lesser extent Final Burn, Zinc, etc.) with take shortcuts and hacks to make the game playable, at the expense of not having it work EXACTLY like the real game.

Quote from: bfauska
I've looked a little, and can't seem to find a simple list of what games are supported and working in which versions.  Can somebody point me to it?  I would like to choose the version based on the compatible games and the speed.


Nope - you won't find a list like this.  You have to understand how MAME works.  In the old days, they would release a version 0.29.  Then, there would be a version 0.30b1 (Beta1), 0.30b2, 0.30b3, 0.30RC1 (Release Candidate 1), 0.30RC2, and finally 0.30.  Then you would go to 0.31b1, etc.  Initially, the idea was that the 030b1 would have errors and these would get fixed by the time 0.31 was released.  Eventually, the number of games supported, the length and complexity of the games etc., meant that the final releases had errors and the first couple of betas were bugfixes and more stable, then the next group of betas were developmental changes and broke things.  Ultimately, the devs realized that every release had some errors and was "beta" and abandoned the numbering, only to resurrect it in a new form with the "u" release system.

Short answer - Your most stable version will be the one released immediately before a "whatsnew.txt" starting with "Aaron rewrote the "something" core processing code, breaking most of the "something" drivers in the process."  (No hard feelings toward Aaron Giles with that comment - you have to break some eggs to end up with an omelette.)

UPDATE: What a lot of people make a mistake with is thinking they can only have one version of MAME in their cab.  (I.e. - I've got a 1Ghz processor, so I need to run MAME 0.55 and can't play Golden Tee 2K - I'm using MAME 0.107, but GameX was introduced in MAME 0.108 and I can't play it b/c I only have a full romset of 0.107).  There is absolutely no reason that you can't have a MAME055 folder and a MAME108 folder (and any others you want) and have your frontend select which version of MAME to run with which games.

Quote from: bfauska
If I roll back the Mame program itself will the Roms from the current release still work with it? I realize the unsupported games won't, what I mean is will the Donkey Kong from a .113 set work with .107 etc?

Okay - romsets change for four main reasons:

First - rom is not correctly dumped and someone either finds another board or goes back and redumps the rom to correct this.

Second - rom is corrrectly dumped, but some additional chips such as the color prom are missing and need to be re-dumped.

Third - MAMEDEV decides to rename the romset.  For example, a newer version of centipede is found, so the old centiped.zip becomes centipdo.zip and the new one replaces centiped.zip.

Fourth - Sometimes MAMEDEV will rename the indiviual files that make up the romset.

MAME will ignore a color prom that previous versions were not aware of - so you are safer going backward than forward, and the changes are cumulative.  In other words, you will have better luck using a 0.113 set with .107 than with 0.55 and also better luck than trying to use a 0.107 set with 0.113.

ClrMAMEPro can search your romset and try to rename the roms as required to make it work with an earlier version, but ensure you have your current set backed up as it might change them so that none of them work any more.  (It's a great program, but it can be dangerous also.)

You also might be able to find "rollback" sets if you look around.

Quote from: bfauska
I haven't had too many problems with speed but I sometimes get a sort of "wipe" effect when playing scrolling games, will a less processor hungry version solve this?
Highly unlikely - try enabling triplebuffering (like ahofle said) and/or enabling or disabling "Wait for Vsynch".
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 08:22:08 am by Tiger-Heli »
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