Best Moniter for vector mame / Spinner Wiring

[johnm160]

What is the best alternative to a color xy for a tempest mame project? A CGA arcacde monitor or a PC monitor.

Tempest looks ok on my pc monitor but I have no clue what it would look like on a standard arcade monitor.

**note** No Tempest cabinets have been hurt during this post 

This will be a Tempest Replica I will be building since I cannot find a cabinet locally.


Thanks for any help.

John

[Paladin]

PC monitor by far.  An arcade monitor or TV does not have good enough resolution to reproduce the sharp crisp lines.

[johnm160]

PC monitor by far.  An arcade monitor or TV does not have good enough resolution to reproduce the sharp crisp lines.

Would it have to be CRT or would an LCD look just as good?

LCD is easier to find these days.

Thanks Paladin

[Kremmit]

The highest resolution CRT you can find.

[johnm160]

The highest resolution CRT you can find.

I was afraid someone was going to say that.

[my58vw]

High Res CRT monitors are actually not that expensive if you are playing just vector games...

[ArtMAME]

I agree.  Your best bet is to find a PC monitor that will fit in the cab.  PC monitor will produce the best image for Tempest on MAME.    You may have to decase the PC monitor, or make the cabinet a little bigger to acomodate the monitor. 

Do not use a CGA monitor for the Vector games.  Resolution is not high enough for crisp vector graphics.

I am using a 27" TV with component inputs in my MAME cabinet.  Tempest, and other COLOR vector games look quite decent, but B&W games like Asteroids look lousy on the TV.  A regular VGA monitor would be tons better.

And if you really want to get adventurous, you could just use a real vector monitor and a ZVG vector generator from Zektor:

http://www.zektor.com/zvg/index.html

This could get expensive though, very expensive.

I would recommend that you just go with a PC monitor and build the cabinet.  It would be the easiest and least expensive to do.  Later, much later, if you want a challenge, you could try the Zektor and a real vector monitor.

[ArtMAME]

PC monitor by far.  An arcade monitor or TV does not have good enough resolution to reproduce the sharp crisp lines.

Would it have to be CRT or would an LCD look just as good?

LCD is easier to find these days.

Thanks Paladin

If you have a laptop, or access to a laptop computer, try running tempest on it and see how it looks to you. 

If you like the way it looks, it would be real easy to fit a 19" LCD in a Tempest cabinet.  I will probably be a pain to find a 19" CRT PC monitor that will fit in a standard Tempest cab.

[Havok]

Get a good 20" LCD screen. I think that these guys that are hard core CRT users haven't seen a newer LCD screen and are basing their judgement on older LCD technology. I have a 20" Dell Ultrasharp and I love it. I would stay away from widescreen LCDs unless you are going to rotate it for vertical only games, then they are the way to go...

[johnm160]

I have no problem decasing the monitor, it is just that LCD's are so much easier to find then a good 19" CRT these days.

I really can't make the case bigger I already have an original Control Panel and Marquee to go in it.

Havok

Since all this is going to play is tempest I would be installing it vertically

[ArtMAME]

I think that these guys that are hard core CRT users haven't seen a newer LCD screen and are basing their judgement on older LCD technology.

Yes, you are correct... We like to feel the steady stream of  electron radiation hitting us in the face  as we blast our enemies into quantum partilces!!!  All just part of recreating the arcade experience 

Also, CRTs are cheap these days, LCDs are very practicle as they are nice and compact, but they are expensive still.

Anyway, it is a personal choice, it is your project, and you can do what ever you want with it.  Do what looks good to you.  I have always been the happiest when I did it my way and made my own choices.  It is good to explore options and suggestions, and I have done that too, but at the end of the day, it is your project, and you should choose to do what ever makes you happy         

[ArtMAME]

I have no problem decasing the monitor, it is just that LCD's are so much easier to find then a good 19" CRT these days.

I really can't make the case bigger I already have an original Control Panel and Marquee to go in it.

Try Craigslist or your local Goodwill store.  I stop by Goodwill often and have gotten 21" monitors for under $20.   

Remember, 19" PC monitor is actually like 18.1" viewable.  Standard 19" arcade monitors are actually 19" viewable.  But this slight difference should not be a big deal.

I am experimenting with this right now. I am picking up a 19" PC monitor today from Craigslist so I can decase it and put it in a converted Robotron cabinet.  I have a 21" PC monitor in there, but it sticks out the back by 1" so I can't close it up. 
 
But the 19" should fit in there. 

19" LCD would definitely fit, but like we saw in the previous post, I am hardore CRT all the way baby... 

[johnm160]

That vector board looks interesting but if I had an affordable working vector monitor I would probably just buy a board set for it.

I will have to steal my coworkers moniter to see what it looks like on an LCD.

I ask so I can learn what I don't know    I was planning an arcade monitor untill I stumbled across a thread where someone was very unhappy with one.

Humm, we have loads of pawn shops in florida, maybe I can find something there.

[ArtMAME]

Go for it.  You can get a 19" PC monitor for $10 to $50 depending on where you go. 

I got a Centipede cabinet that I was gonna MAME, but decided to get original parts for it.  about $500 worth of parts later, I still don't have a working Centipede 

I should have just MAMEd the Centipede with a PC and a PC monitor, I would have spent much less and I would have a working Centipede by now.  Well, you live and learn.

Go for what is easiest and most convenient and what will make you happy.  I guess is what I am trying to say

[johnm160]

Go for it.  You can get a 19" PC monitor for $10 to $50 depending on where you go. 

I got a Centipede cabinet that I was gonna MAME, but decided to get original parts for it.  about $500 worth of parts later, I still don't have a working Centipede 

I should have just MAMEd the Centipede with a PC and a PC monitor, I would have spent much less and I would have a working Centipede by now.  Well, you live and learn.

Go for what is easiest and most convenient and what will make you happy.  I guess is what I am trying to say

Wow sorry to hear that!

[johnm160]

OK,

I just "borrowed" a 17" Dell LCD off a coworkers desk at gave Tempest a try. It actually looked quite good in my opinion. I am guessing it will take a little work to get the resolution correct. I don't remember so much black space above the score like I had here, but this was on Mame 32 also. I swapped back to my 17" Mitsubishi CRT and it really looked about the same.

So I guess either will work well. mounting the LCD will be easier but the CRT will be cheaper. I think I will make a final determination once the cab is built and I see how much room is between the board that supports the monitor and the back of the case.

That is unless someone has one here that could measure for me.   

[ArtMAME]

Go for it.  You can get a 19" PC monitor for $10 to $50 depending on where you go. 

I got a Centipede cabinet that I was gonna MAME, but decided to get original parts for it.  about $500 worth of parts later, I still don't have a working Centipede 

I should have just MAMEd the Centipede with a PC and a PC monitor, I would have spent much less and I would have a working Centipede by now.  Well, you live and learn.

Go for what is easiest and most convenient and what will make you happy.  I guess is what I am trying to say

Wow sorry to hear that!

Yeah, I am bummed too.   

But hey, that's OK.  I just take it as a learning experience.

Just go for the easiest and most convenient solution that will make YOU happy.  Use what you have on hand, or what you can get easily and inexpensively. 

Then, later, much later, if you want to get adventureous, you can.  That's what I have learned so far.  That's what I am doing from now on. 

Thanks for letting me vent 

Good luck on your vector MAME Tempest cab.  Don't forget to post pics.  I am planning to do some replica cabs soon also.  Dedicated MAME platforms of course.  No more spending $500 on an original boardset, PSU, wire harness, arcade monitor, etc.  just to play one game, when an old Pentium 2 and a spare PC monitor will get you pretty close to the real thing.

[crashwg]

I would stay away from widescreen LCDs unless you are going to rotate it for vertical only games, then they are the way to go...

Have you ever seen a vertical game with a widescreen (or tall screen in this case) in an arcade?  I for one haven't...

[JustMichael]

What is the best alternative to a color xy for a tempest mame project? A CGA arcacde monitor or a PC monitor.

Tempest looks ok on my pc monitor but I have no clue what it would look like on a standard arcade monitor.

**note** No Tempest cabinets have been hurt during this post 

This will be a Tempest Replica I will be building since I cannot find a cabinet locally.


Thanks for any help.

John

PC monitor.  Set the mame resolution to at least 1024x768.  You will also have to set the "beam" in the mame.ini file to a value you like (such as 1.5).

[johnm160]

Thanks for the help guys.

I will post plenty of pics, and do a project announcement at the appropraite time, I am in the process of making a couple of templates for a few up coming projects. I am torn at this point between starting the project next week or waiting till the 21st for the arcade auction as a last chance to find one.

[ArtMAME]

Hey, I just stuck an AOC 19" PC monitor in a converted Robotron cabinet and it looks awesome!!!  Best of all, it fits with out decasing!!! it does not stick out of the back like the 21" I tried yesterday. 

I think we have a winner.   

I will use a spare PC as a platform.

Forget paying $310 plus for a working boardset (current Ebay price), $100 plus for a working Williams Power supply, $150-$200 for a CGA monitor. Then $250 for artwork on top of that.   

F... that!!!

I know, I know, the purist may want to hang me... 

Nothing against the purists... honest... I have nothing but respect for them...

BUT I AIN'T ONE!!!  Soooooo...

for a real good price, I will assemble myself a working Robotron machine that will fool 99.9% of the population into thinking it is a real one.   

[johnm160]

I remember someone posted the wiring from an orignal Tempest spinner to an Optipac but I cant find it. Does anyone remember the thread or know the pinout of the OE Spinner?

Art, I know what you mean, I would love to make it all original but the would cost a bit more then I can afford to put into the project at this point. I understand and respect their point of view but that is a bit more money then I can throw at this project.

[Havok]

I would stay away from widescreen LCDs unless you are going to rotate it for vertical only games, then they are the way to go...

Have you ever seen a vertical game with a widescreen (or tall screen in this case) in an arcade?  I for one haven't...

Yeah, seriously! I mean, why would you do that? While we're on the topic of what never to do - who the hell would build a cab with Windows XP and run Mame? Have you ever seen that in an arcade? I for one haven't...

 

/sarcasm off

Actually, on the new Pac-man\Galaga cabinet - that looks like a wide screen flipped on it's side: I saw one in a rest stop on the Thruway, and the screen looked much longer than the originals...

[danny_galaga]

personally i would go the CRT. not just because its going to be cheap, but it would definitely have the feel with that slightly curved screen and all (",). also, i would like my cab to look the part on the inside so mine would have a decased monitor and butt nekked pc- that is motherboard mounted to the side just like the genuine article. the only problem then is how to fill it up with 25 years worth of dust!

[johnm160]

problem then is how to fill it up with 25 years worth of dust!

Just cut open a couple of used vacuum cleaner bags.

[Kremmit]

I would stay away from widescreen LCDs unless you are going to rotate it for vertical only games, then they are the way to go...

Have you ever seen a vertical game with a widescreen (or tall screen in this case) in an arcade?  I for one haven't...

Yeah, seriously! I mean, why would you do that? While we're on the topic of what never to do - who the hell would build a cab with Windows XP and run Mame? Have you ever seen that in an arcade? I for one haven't...

 

/sarcasm off

Actually, on the new Pac-man\Galaga cabinet - that looks like a wide screen flipped on it's side: I saw one in a rest stop on the Thruway, and the screen looked much longer than the originals...

Using a rotated widescreen to play vertical games would be totally pointless.  The games have a 4:3 aspect ratio.  Using a wider screen does nothing unless you WANT to stretch the graphics out so that Ms. Pac is oval-shaped instead of round.  If you leave the game at it's correct aspect ratio, then you'll have big empty black spaces at the top and bottom of the screen.

The new Pac/Galaga cabs have a 25" monitor, which is why it looks bigger than the 19" monitors in originals.  But it's still a standard 4:3 monitor. 

[johnm160]

Well it has just come to my attention that since we will have several people off on the 21st I will not be able to attend the auction (probably a good thing for my wallet) So I will have to build it....

Look for a project announcement soon.

[ArtMAME]

Hey,

Just found this thread.  This guy put a PC monitor inside a Tempest cab.  Don't know what size, but you may want to check out his pics of how he mounted it inside the cab.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=53653.msg530012#msg530012

[johnm160]

Hey,

Just found this thread.  This guy put a PC monitor inside a Tempest cab.  Don't know what size, but you may want to check out his pics of how he mounted it inside the cab.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=53653.msg530012#msg530012

Thanks Art....I just read it, I put in a 17 inch because that is what fit.... I am not sure how much room would be gained decasing a 19 inch. I would like to use a CRT, but I still think I am going to have to wait to see exactly how much room there is to play with after it is built.

I hit 5 pawn shops the other day and they were only selling the monitors with the computers. They only had 17" anyway.

[ArtMAME]

I have been hitting the Goodwill stores also.  Found a few 19" monitors.  I got an AOC 19" monitor from some guy on Craigslist, and a Dell M990 (only 16" deep) from the thift store.  Either one fits nicely in my Robotron cab with out decasing. 

Most monitors I have decased have a sort of metal cage around the back that is only a little bit smaller than the plastic casing, so you don't really gain much room by decasing.  I am still looking for one with no metal cage.  I have seen a Sylvania F96 that may not have a cage, have not taken it apart yet, but it may fit in my Centipede cabinet. 

You can usually look inside the back of the monitors in those little holes to see if there is a cage there.  That would probably be you best bet if you have your heart set on a 19" monitor.

[johnm160]

From the plan I am working from it looks like I am going to have about 17.5 inches from the back of the monitor board to the inside of the back wall. My 17" monitor is 16" deep so it is gonna be close, but we will find out soon enough.

I would make the cab deeper but then the side art would not fit. 

[ArtMAME]

Check it out:

http://www.classicarcadegrafix.com/sunshop/index.php?action=search

I have not dealt with them before, but I am sure other board members have.

It asks for dimensions, so you might be able to scale the cabinet up??? then you may have to go a little taller to get deeper???  Or you could specify the dimensions of the side art to go a little deeper, but not taller???  That would probably stretch the graphics a little, which may look funny.

Something else you could try would be to keep the standard dimensions, but add about 4" to the back of the cab, then paint it white, install the sideart flush with the front like normal, but you would have a 4" white stripe running along the rear edge of the cabinet. 

It may or may not look funny to you, but maybe nobody would notice ehh...  , especially if you put the Tempest between two other cabinets...

I just built a cab for my friend modeled after my Williams High Impact Football (HUGE Midway style cabinet), but I had to deepen it by 4 1/2 inches so I could put a 29" computer monitor in there.  It worked really well, It does not really look disproportionate at all.  Of course, it is all black with no sideart, and he did put it in a little cubby hole in the wall so only some of it sticks out from the wall.

[johnm160]

I was planning on buying it from arcadeshop since it is almost half the price.
http://www.arcadeshop.com/pics/tempest-side-art.jpg

I did think about the white stripe though

[ArtMAME]

Arcadeshop is great. 

I order stuff from there all the time and it gets to me the very next day

I am going to get some artwork for my Centipede and my Robotron from there real soon. 

[torez]

I would stay away from widescreen LCDs unless you are going to rotate it for vertical only games, then they are the way to go...

Have you ever seen a vertical game with a widescreen (or tall screen in this case) in an arcade?  I for one haven't...

Yeah, seriously! I mean, why would you do that? While we're on the topic of what never to do - who the hell would build a cab with Windows XP and run Mame? Have you ever seen that in an arcade? I for one haven't...

 

/sarcasm off

Actually, on the new Pac-man\Galaga cabinet - that looks like a wide screen flipped on it's side: I saw one in a rest stop on the Thruway, and the screen looked much longer than the originals...

Using a rotated widescreen to play vertical games would be totally pointless.  The games have a 4:3 aspect ratio.  Using a wider screen does nothing unless you WANT to stretch the graphics out so that Ms. Pac is oval-shaped instead of round.  If you leave the game at it's correct aspect ratio, then you'll have big empty black spaces at the top and bottom of the screen.

The new Pac/Galaga cabs have a 25" monitor, which is why it looks bigger than the 19" monitors in originals.  But it's still a standard 4:3 monitor. 

Have a look here then:
http://mame32qa.classicgaming.gamespy.com/dell2405fpw/controller.htm

[Sizzler]

Using a rotated widescreen to play vertical games would be totally pointless.  The games have a 4:3 aspect ratio.  Using a wider screen does nothing unless you WANT to stretch the graphics out so that Ms. Pac is oval-shaped instead of round.  If you leave the game at it's correct aspect ratio, then you'll have big empty black spaces at the top and bottom of the screen.

Have a look here then:
http://mame32qa.classicgaming.gamespy.com/dell2405fpw/controller.htm

You're making Kremmit's point.  Look at that screen there.  empty black spaces like he said, at the top and bottom.  Unused portions of the widescreen monitor that you paid good money for.   The game is still 3:4

[Kremmit]

From the article you linked up:

It's necessary of course to set Mame32 to 16:10 otherwise you'll get a squat stretched picture.  Since most arcade games are 4:3 standard resolution, you're going to get black bars on the left and right in a letterbox style. 

Finally, the monitor can be rotated into portrait mode if you want.  You have to put it all the way up on its stand and then turn it.  This creates a 22" tall portrait orientation which you can use with Mame32 of course for its vertical games.  Just use the autorotate option in the UI.  You'll get black bars on the top and bottom in that mode too

Looks like the guy writing the article knows that the widescreen format doesn't do much for MAME.  It's still a nice monitor, and bigger than his ole one, and since he's using it for his PC monitor too, he'll get some use out of it for other apps.  But if you're building a dedicated vertical cab, your money would be better spent on a regular 4:3 monitor.

[torez]

Dedicated cab is the key here.  I thought more in desktop terms, as that's all I have.  Yes, nobody says that Pacman is not 3:4 here, but there are quite a few games that are not 3:4, so having widescreen monitor is a big plus.  Besides, if you go to a store that has them on display you will notice that they are not all the same shape, i.e. same aspect ratio.  Some are longer than others, so all of them are not built to the 6:9 ratio, just like with the movies.

Anyway, having option to rotate desktop widescreen lcd is great and some games like Darius, Ninja Warriors, etc., Playchoice and Mega-Tech systems would display great in a widescreen.  I think even Lunar Lander could be considered widescreen, if you don't use any overlay on the screen.  Hmm, I wonder if cropping overlay on a widescreen monitor could give benefit by filling empty space and not shrinking the game screen as much.

[johnm160]

I found a nice 19" computer monitor for 20 bucks  I guess that solves the question if what to use......Now I just have to see if it is gonna fit or if I am going to have to modify the cabinet dimensions.

[johnm160]

I don't know about this......it is gonna be TIGHT. I had them cut the wood down to near size to make it easier to get home so I only have 1 extra inch I can extend the cabinet 


Does anyone know how far the monitor board is behind the glass? And does it follow the same angle as the glass or does it angle in more toward the bottom?

Thanks for any input.


 John

[ArtMAME]

Did you check out Jakobud's cabinet plans?

http://www.jakobud.com

He has the side profile of the cabinet showing the measurements for what looks like the monitor glass and control panel.

Good luck.

[johnm160]

Yeah, that is the plan I am building off of, It has no spec for where the actual monitor sits.  I have been looking at some pics of other Tempest cabinets but it is hard to gauge.

[ArtMAME]

Have you been to Jakobud's website?

http://www.jakobud.com/

Click on "Cabinet Plans" and you will find Tempest cabinet plans there with some measurements for the monitor glass and CP.

[johnm160]

I am using Jakobuds plans, the is however no measurement for where the monitor sits. I know it does not sit right up to the glass and I *think* the angle is slightly different then that of the glass.

[ArtMAME]

Hey, sorry about the double post... I thought my first post did not get posted...

My first guess would be to mount it 90 degrees relative to the angle of the glass, and mount the monitor as close to the front as it needs to be so it will fit. 

From looking at pics of a Tempest cab, it does look like the monitor is at a different angle.  Maybe it is even level, that is perpendicular to the ground. 

As far as how high to mount the monitor in the cab, I would say just center the screen vertically.  If you use smoked glass and maybe a black cardboard bezel, it should look pretty good.  Smoked glass is pretty forgiving. 

IMHO, the best way to do it if you don't have measurements is to build the cab then test fit the monitor...   and adjust it to whatever looks right to you... or in some cases, what ever will work...

I say this many times, and I will say it again...

When it comes to BYOAC, it is your cabinet, your project, you do what looks and feels right to you... 

If it is a little off from the original and you are comfortable with that, then that's your right. 

If you want EXACT measurements, then that is your right to do as well. 

Good luck 

[johnm160]

no problem my friend....I don't really need and EXACT measurement just trying to get a feeling for what is close to original. I was getting the impression that the monitor more sort of level with the ground then the glass, but damm it has been sooo long since I have seen an original I cannot remember, but it actually fits better if it is perpendicular.

I was not sure if I pull it right up to the glass if it would look funny, but that is my only shot of getting this thing in. My other option is to go back to the LCD Idea but I don't really want to do that.

Other then that I just found a local glass shop that can special order greylite 14 so I am almost in business.

[rockin_rick]

How did this turn out for you?

Rick

[tranq]

Why not just make it a little bigger?  Replica at a different scale.