Which blade do I buy? (was Grizzly table saws)

[Nannuu]

I've read around and found that Grizzly seems to have a bit of a following on internet.  However I don't know anyone that owns one.  I want a nicer table saw and have decided on a hybrid.  I like the Delta and Jet but have read about quality control problems with those so I am thinking that the cheaper Grizzly looks every bit as good and I've yet to find a bad review.  Does anyone have any experience with Grizzly tools?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0478

[MikeDeuce]

Hey Nannuu, have you tried searching at woodnet? ( http://woodnet.net/forums/ )

Their search is a little trickier (have to use the + sign for a reliable boolean), but there's a lot of talent and a lot of strong opinions on that forum.

Folks also seem to be pretty fond of the sears zip code saw (with the bies) that goes on sale pretty frequently for around the same price (possibly cheaper, if you have the griz shipped): Sears.com and search for #00922124000

But I have no experience with either, just wanted to mention woodnet if you hadn't checked there.

Good luck!

[Nannuu]

Thanks Deuce.  Yeah, I just recently noticed that the Craftsman is also a popular TS.  I'll take a look around woodnet, I've never read the forums there before.

[prOk]

Honestly, i'm surprised to read anything at all about Jet having quality issues, while Delta it's no surprise at all.   Jet is a fantastic product for the money.

Be aware, Grizzly is an entry level cheap piece of equipment and is the same company as Shop Fox.  You'll get more bells and whistles with those lines, but you will get far worse quality and even less in customer service.  Personally i'm not a huge fan of Hybrid saws to begin with, but they do have a place.

If you are serious about spending money on a cabinet saw, go for something with a little quality to it.  General, Jet, Powermatic all offer top notch quality with good accessories a year ago Delta would be in the same group but I don't believe that to be true today.   Really compare prices, they won't be the cheapest, but the price gap is less than you think.  Don't let the prices at Sears, Shop Fox and Grizzly fool you.  There's a reason they always paint their equipment to match a competitor

/b

[NiteWalker]

Normally prok, I'd agree with you, but there have been numerous members at woodnet posting about how much they love their sears 22124 (the zip code saw) and the grizzly g0444z/g0575. Most of grizzly's high end machines (like the tablesaws mentioned) are made in iso-9001 factories. Likely the same factories manufacturing the higher end jets, powermatics, etc. Absolutely NO table saw is without its problems, pm66 and unisaws included. You have to keep in mind here, that 98% of the users on these boards build cabinets or desktop controls as a hobby; these are not the target audience for a pm66 or unisaw. $600 is MORE than enough to get a very high quality machine that will last a very very long time. The griz is about that shipped, the sears often goes on sale for that much and there are other fish in the sea. I totally agree with you on delta's quality going to the toilet. I likely won't buy delta again. The last 2 delta tools I bought were the 50-760 dust collector (wonderful for the price and it comes standard with a 1 micron upper filter bag) and the ts350 table saw. It does it's job well, but I dislike the fence very much. And ZCI's for it are a pain to make (right Mike )

I'm not bashing the tools you mentioned at all; all are excellent saws to have. But even I wouldn't pay the $900-$1000 that some ask for (and I've bought some expensive tools...). So my advice here to Nannuu:
List your table saw needs now. Include a top quality fence in your list. Look for a saw with a biesemeyer fence or one of it's clones. Think about what you'll be cutting. A 1 1/2 HP saw is the most available and will handle 98% of your cutting needs unless you plan on starting a business making tables and chairs out of rock maple. Now list what you think your needs will be 5-10 years from now. Buy the saw that fits this criteria. Since you mentioned you want a hybrid I'll mention the ones I've read about and that are approved by users. The DeWalt hybrid, the Grizzly hybrid, the sears zipcode, and the jet are the ony ones I can think of at the moment. If I were to buy one of those I'd go with the sears on sale or the grizzly. When I upgrade my table saw in feb (when the tax man pays up  ) I'll likely be getting one of the above mentioned saws.  Had I took my own advice 4 years ago when I started building, I'd probably have the same saw from day 1 and not the 1 I got rid of and the 1 I have now. Plan for the future.

[Nannuu]

Yep, I bought a decent TS years ago but now it just doesn't cut it as I've taken over the garage.  My wife wants me to build our bedroom furniture and a new computer desk.  The bedroom stuff will likely be oak or possibly cherry or maple.  Minimum oak for sure, same for the computer desk.  I have serious issues with my current saw that I won't bother listing.  I'd like to buy a saw that I can do anything I want with and have that saw last forever.  I am assuming that a hybrid should cut the mustard here.  This is based on what I've read not personal experience at all.  I'd consider a Jet but everytime I inspect those at the local Woodcraft I just don't don't like them.  I have no reason for this  .  But that narrows what I can look at to Grizzly, Delta (no way), General and Craftsman.  I've never seen the Delta, I suppose I need to look into that.  There is supposed to be a local General supplier but it appears as though they've gone out of business, I would like to see the saw I'm buying.  Sadly that leaves me with Grizzly and Craftsman.  I really should take a 3rd and 4th look at the Jet since I haven't read too many bad reports of that one.  Actually I think I only read one, maybe that's what's causing my prejudice  .  It seems as though all of the nicer saws have some type of Bies fence copy as well so I'm not too worried about that. Although a true Bies would be cool.  I still have a few months before I'll be able to get one anyway but I'd like to be prepared if a sale pops up.
If anyone has personal experience with any nice tablesaws I'll take any recommendation as something to look at.

[johnm160]

Grizzly tool may not be top of the line but I and others I know have found them to be better then most of the craftsman line.

I have a friend that has owned grizzly table saws, jointers 3 wheel band saws.....ect. He loves them I have used them and loved them....I own a craftsman radial arm saw. Its ok has it's problems nothing terrible, But I like the griz stuff better.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited to add, We brought the bandsaw in while his wife was at work, he threw sawdust on it so it would blend in.....it took her almost 2 weeks to notice it, He denied everything, told her it was there for years...

LMAO

[prOk]

Man, the marketplace is more confusing out there for the consumer than I thought     As a reseller, I either sell or can sell every brand out there but craftsman.. here's my honest take on all of them (keep in mind, as a reseller I make a hell of a lot more money on a Shop Fox than I do a Jet).

Craftsman/Delta:  This one confuses me. everyone puts down Delta (deservedly so) but praises the Craftsman.  Delta has been the manufacturer behind Craftsman since the 60's and the current hybrid saw is the same in both lines and tracks equally poorly in quality in both lines.  Both saws are the same, made by Delta.

General/General International:  IMHO a good buy overall, better quality and a reasonable price.  Not the cheapest, but the margin is so slight it shouldn't be a huge factor.  Easily a better saw than most of your big box stores.

Dewalt:  Forget about it.  This isn't their market and it shows.  Dewalt/PorterCable/black and Decker all the same company.  Ever since B&D Swallowed dewalt they've been slowly dwindling too. 

Jet/Powermatic:  Arguably the best you can buy for the hobby/entry level business market.   Again, not the cheapest and not the flashiest but will be around working strong for many many years.  Accuracy and adjustability is unmatched in this particular market as of yet.

Steel City:  A new player on the market made up of primarily ex Delta management.  Product looks strikingly like Delta but the quality seems to be at a different level.  Wait and see on this one, potentially a new contender.

Shop Fox/Grizzly:  The classic hack company.  Anytime a new market player emerges these guys do their best to clone them.   Grizzly looks amazingly like General while Shop Fox clones Jet pretty well.  Either way, quality is harbor freight level over the long term. They get the vast majority of their business due to the price point, not the quality/accuracy of their tools. 

The Hybrid saw in general is only a couple year old concept and is still 'cutting it's teeth' as that market between the brute force contractors saw and the finesse cabinet saw invents itself.   There's a lot of hocus pocus in this market space unfortunately as most vendors seem to wave shiny things at the customer to get their interest.  Look past the chachki aspect of it and focus on the important parts.  Compare specs on the motors, belts, fences, cabinet construction etc.  Look for fewer plastic pieces (however 'pretty' they may look), look for genuine accessories such as an actual Biesmeyer fence (to delta/craftsman's credit, their fences are made by Biesmeyer as are Jet/powermatic).  I also suggest that rather than going by hearsay and forum opinions, go to a store that will let you try the saws.  Just about any upper end woodworking store will let you push a piece of plywood through a demo saw.  Cut something with your own two hands and use that to make your decision in addition to specification comparison.

The next most important purchase you'll make is the blade and that's a whole different conversation

/b

[MikeDeuce]

... and the ts350 table saw. It does it's job well, but I dislike the fence very much. And ZCI's for it are a pain to make (right Mike )

Preach on, brother! Great saw for those that *need* something in between a portable ts and a contractor saw, though. It's smaller than any stationary contractor saw I can think of (but heavy), doesn't feel like it's going to tip over, and has a fairly quiet induction motor. The fence does blow, though.

prOk: aren't the delta/rockwell days with craftsman over? The 22124 is made by Orion I believe (or does Orion build Delta too?).

Sooo... how about a sawstop? 

I'm very interested in the supposedly upcoming contractor saw.

[NiteWalker]

Yeah other than the fence, it does a very good job. Yes delta is now part of the b&d/dewalt/pc brand. Orion does make the 22124. It's size was one of the deciding factors with me too. I've actually considered fitting a bies fence or clone on it as I haven't had a power issue yet. A hybrid sure would be nice though...

[prOk]

I guess technically speaking Orion is not Delta, but it is certainly born of delta and shares almost everything with delta.   While not the 'same' company, they can be considered 'sister' companies.. while delta no longer does private label tools like they did at one point, Orion kinda filled that gap.  It's sticky how it all works out, but essentially they are closer than most realize

[Gambit]

I think Sears brands are more expensive then the brand they copy, but customer service is beyond compare.  It is the easiest thing in the world to get repairs and replacements from.

Once I walked in with a circular saw with a burnt out motor which was 2 days past warranty, but still I walked out with a brand new one exchanged for the broken.  I had to show my receipt, and I was all set with excuses for being 2 days over warranty, but the manager just predated it for me.

Also, any time you have a tool break, such as a socket or wrench, you dont even need a receipt, just walk in and show them and you walk out with a brand new one.

Other places may do that too, but I have never had it so easy except at Sears.

[Nannuu]

Son of a....Man, I hate looking!!

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2569723&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=

He's selling this saw at $1260 with $100 rebate to make it $1160, free shipping:
http://timberlinetools.com/product_p/jet%20708663ck.htm

220V or not, I could pay for a 220 line just for the deal.

[NiteWalker]

That's a great deal for a unisaw (one of delta's best). What are you buying a saw for anyway? Just hobby or are you starting a small business?

[prOk]

Nannuu, that Jet saw you linked is the EXACT saw I have in my shop.. that particular one is discontinued as that particular package (it was also packed as a75th anniversary woodcraft saw).   That price is also amazing.. I too offer the 100.00 rebate on jet and free shipping but 1200 bucks is less than my cost on any of the exactas..  He must have done a bulk pricing buy at one point..

[Nannuu]

That's a great deal for a unisaw (one of delta's best). What are you buying a saw for anyway? Just hobby or are you starting a small business?

Hobby, but I really don't want to buy another one in a few years.  I'm on my second saw so this time (my third) I intend to get the right one.  I also do have a small business license just in case anyone wants me to build them something.  This is rare but happens at least once per year where I agree.  The license makes it legal to make the money and also to write off any tools I buy  .
Thanks pr0k, I couldn't find the saw on Jet's site so that explains it.  I'll be begging the wife all night on that one.  I've already told her that it'd be $1000 tops with saw, new blade, mobile base....guess I'm going to have to ammend my speech.  I'd mentioned before that Jets are unappealing to me but a $1700 saw for $1200 is not.  I sure don't want to spend that much but a good deal is a good deal!  Especially when it's a true cabinet saw.

[Nannuu]

<sigh>  Well after finally getting buyoff from the wife this weekend to purchase the Jet, it was already sold out.  Bummer.
If anyone finds any super deals, please post'em!

[Nannuu]

That was quick!  I found another deal yesterday because a woodworking shop here in DFW is going out of business.  I was able to get this saw:
50-220CL M1
http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/50220220ca.html
for 25% off with a bit of extra stuff thrown in.  Decided it was a good deal with prOk's recommendation of General above.  Can't wait to start building something!
Thanks for everyone's help.

Now, what kind of blade should I get?

[nostrebor]

Blade: Forrest Woodworker II

Congrats on getting a very nice saw!

[NiteWalker]

^ What he said. Nice saw! I was looking at a general model myself (50-185).

[Nannuu]

Thanks!

OOOOO      OOOOOO
That's a nice blade.

[Nannuu]

How many teeth do I need for oak and other such stuff?  I'd think more teeth = better?

[Crax]

More teeth = smoother cut.  Not always better.  Generally the more teeth you have, the longer the cut will take, so if you are cutting down things like floorboard etc, you don't need a high tooth blade.  It's always nice to have a couple different blades. 

[NiteWalker]

What you want is the 40 tooth standard kerf WWII. Thin kerf is not needed for the saw you have. Keep the blade clean and it will last you very long. After setting up your saw one of the first things you should make (or buy) for it is a zero clearance insert. Some people recommend a 24 tooth flat top grind ripping blade, but in all honesty a woodworkerII at this point will serve you fine. Evaluate your needs then decide on the blades you need. If you plan to cut a lot of plywood an 80 tooth plywood blade would be a good investment.

Even with only 40 teeth the WWII cuts like butter and leaves a very smooth surface.

I personally have deWalt's DW7657. It's their version of the WWII. Nearly identical and $40 cheaper (sometimes on sale-I paid $40 for mine). The cut is very smooth and glue ready.

[Nannuu]

Excellent, the place going out of business has the Dewalt blade.  I'll pick one of those up tonight then!

[prOk]

The woodworker 2 is far and away the best blade you can get..  Please don't take this the wrong way, but the dewalt blades are not even in the same league as the WW2

The WW2 will stay sharp and true long after the dewalt has been dulled and sharpened twice.  The downside of the Forrest blades is that you have to send them to forrest for sharpening.   Consider blades from Dewalt, Makita etc as 'contractor' grade..  Blades like CMT, Freud (not their cheapo line), Forrest and Amana to be more cabinet grade blades.  I use a Dewalt blade in my chop saw but I wouldn't use one in my table saw.   Of course everyone has their opinion

There's also 2 kinds of blades you want as a starter set..  You want a standard rip blade and a melamine blade.   If you plan on crosscutting you'll want a higher tooth count blade such as a melamine one..  Also, if you plan to cut loose fiber woods such as pressboard or MDF you will also want a melamine blade.    For solid woods, rough cuts, low grade plywoods a rip blade works fine.

/b

[Nannuu]

So I could get the WW2 and what else?  Is a WW2 a melamine or a rip?

[NiteWalker]

FYI, this is the blade I am referring to:
DeWalt Blade
Not the yellow tipped construction blades. The blade in the link is very much in the same league as the forrest. I've run quite a few sheets of MDF (which dulls cutters a lot quicker than normal wood) through it and it still cuts as smooth as the day I bought it (feb). The important thing is to keep the blade clean and it will stay sharp for a very long time.

Don't get me wrong; the WWII is a wonderful blade. If you have to have one at least wait for a sale. The blade is not worth full price.
Forrest Blade

A lot of people recommend a freud blade too; I just can't remember the model no.

[prOk]

on the topic of keeping your blade clean, a $6 bottle of Pitch Remover is worth it's weight in gold!

[NiteWalker]

^ That can't be emphasized enough. Clean=sharp.

[Nannuu]

Thanks guys.  I never thought of that either.

[nostrebor]

Nannuu,

You have stepped off the slippery slope indeed!

 I Keep 3 blades. A WWII for the do-all woodworking. It rarely leaves my saw and will perform beautifully for *almost* any cut when used with a zero-clearance insert. I also have a high tooth-count plywood blade (80 teeth IIRC) that I use for veneered plywood and melamine and such. It is a Freud, a good one. I don't remember the model #. Then I keep a (don't laugh prok!) Harbor freight oddball tooth count blade for running questionable stuff through... stuff that might have bits of metal, rough cutting, MDF, etc. Anything that is hard on a sawblade gets pushed through these. I buy them on sale for $5 a piece and toss em when they start to suck. About 1 in 10 will have serious runout issues and they go back to the store. Overall they run true and make semi decent cuts. I figure they almost pay for themselves in saved sharpening bills and saved potential for a broken tooth on a $100 blade.

I also want to suggest two WW forums, both are great for this kind of info:

www.bt3central.com
www.woodnet.net

sawmillcreek is pretty cool as well.

Dave.

[Nannuu]

Man, the board ALWAYS comes through for me.  That seems like sound advice.  I'll get myself 3 different blades as well before the wife realizes what I'm doing 
I found woodnet from the reference above but never been to bt3central...browsing now.

Thanks again guys.

[prOk]

Hehe!! No sweat Nostrebor!  Even harbor freight has it's place, especially is a sacrificial lamb

/b