Author Topic: attention all racers..regarding force feedback (Read 3985 times)

arcadepcnut · « **on:** July 06, 2006, 07:45:45 pm »

Question. if you have never used force feedback is it a worthwhile feature to add?

Some background.
I have a xbox madkats mc2 wheel I am converting over to happ arcade wheel pedals and shifter. Im part of the way there. I bought a happs wheel with force feedback but my current xbox wheel does not have that functionality.

But apparently the logitech driving pro wheel...yes i know ps2 only (can convert to xbox)...has force feedback and can be converted over with a servo amplifier ($100) to the happ wheel.

Now my delima is if I finish converting over the xbox mc2 wheel I will bypass the force feedback on the happs and install two resistance springs to the wheel and go on. but Im wondering if I am truely missing something not converting over with force feedback in mind?
How many xbox games really use force feedback? Is adding force feedback worth the $150 and extra time?
I need some input...I cant make up my mind.

versapak · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2006, 08:10:14 pm »

You can't convert the Driving Force Pro to Xbox.

Also...

The Xbox has no support for real force feedback.

There is a wheel from Fanatec called the Speedster III ForceShock, and it takes the normal rumble, and it gives you motor driven feedback based on that. It is not anywhere near as good as the real force feedback you can get on PS2 and PC, but it is the best you can get on Xbox. If you are looking to give an xbox cab some feedback, that'd be the wheel to look into.

mark shaker · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2006, 09:32:51 pm »

I don't think that anyone will say that Force Feedback is necessary. It just adds a little extra excitement.

I suggest trying it out and then deciding for yourself. Either stop by a local arcade and drop a few (dozen) quarters, or try out a Driving Force on a PS2 as is.

If you decide against it, sell that Active Happ Wheel and buy a Happ 270 Degree Wheel.

I have Video Game / Pinball Parties every couple of weeks, and my driving cabinet (with the Happ Active Wheel) is always occupied. The Burn Out series is the hands down favorite.

- Mark

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2006, 09:37:54 pm »

Why do I need to sell the happ wheel Force feedback and get a 270 wheel? I can do the modifications to make the happ force feedback a 270.
Also...you say you use happ force feedback with burnout series. How did you go about doing that?

versapak · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2006, 09:51:06 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on July 06, 2006, 09:37:54 pm

Why do I need to sell the happ wheel Force feedback and get a 270 wheel? I can do the modifications to make the happ force feedback a 270.
Also...you say you use happ force feedback with burnout series. How did you go about doing that?

I imagine he mentions getting rid of the active wheel only if you decide against force feedback, as it would be a waste of money to have something not being utilized.

mark shaker · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2006, 10:07:02 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on July 06, 2006, 09:37:54 pm

Why do I need to sell the happ wheel Force feedback and get a 270 wheel? I can do the modifications to make the happ force feedback a 270.
Also...you say you use happ force feedback with burnout series. How did you go about doing that?

I think that it would be a lot of work to remove the force feedback and install a self centering device, and the results would not be as good as a Happ 270 degree wheel.

Take a look at the exploded drawing of the Happ 270 degree wheel. To get the proper feel, the springs do not act directly on the wheel, they act on two bars. The bars in turn act on an offset cam on the wheel.

Correction: Happ's exploded view does a very poor job of showing how the 270 degree wheel works. It uses 1 spring to hold a bar against an offset cam on the steering wheel's shaft.

If indeed the X-Box does not support Force Feedback, then your only choices are using PS2 and/or PC. Luckily the Happ Active Wheel / Driving Force hack works with both.

I invented the Happ Active Wheel / Driving Force hack. Here is my write up: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mshaker/marks_arcade_006.htm

- Mark

Wicked · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2006, 10:24:08 pm »

If you are willing to wait, microsoft has a force feedback wheel for xbox 360 coming out in the very near future

versapak · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2006, 10:37:01 pm »

Quote from: Wicked on July 06, 2006, 10:24:08 pm

If you are willing to wait, microsoft has a force feedback wheel for xbox 360 coming out in the very near future

That won't work on an Xbox though, and probably won't add anything to the backward compatible games that are working on the 360.

Like I said, in my other post...

The Fanatec wheel does have motor driven feedback. It techincally kicks the wheel just like the driving force pro does. It just doesn't do it with specific force data.

When you are using the Driving Force Pro with Gran Turismo 4, you can actually feel the aspects of the road, and the forces of the car, the varying resistance on the wheel in turns at different speeds.

You don't have that kind of realistic feedback with the Fanatec wheel, but it does do a pretty good job at faking it (after all the controller rumble that it is basing its forces off of are also related to your gameplay, just not to as detailed an extent as what you get with PS2 or PC force feedback).

I too love the racers on the Xbox (Forza, PGR3, OutRun 2, RalliSport Challenge 2), and the Fanatec wheel does add greatly to the experience of all of them.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2006, 11:16:51 pm »

thanks for all the replies!
I got a deal on the happ arcade wheel with force feedback. I got it and a shifter for $50. So If I cant utilize the force feedback I'll just make it into a 270 wheel. Two springs and a tab will do it since thats the way my mc2 wheel works and its fine except flimsy and worn out.

The fantec wheel seems like one to convert. Do you think it can convert like marks conversion or similar? Should I just bit the bullet and see?

The xbox racers really beat the ps2 plus the graphics are more arcade like so there is no chance of me converting to ps2 games in my cab. I have a ps2 but GT4 alone isnt worth it. I am playing flatout2 on my cab now and flat out enjoying it.

Im going to hunt for this fantec wheel. Anyone have any pictures of it apart?

Anyone have any suggestions on where to locate the buttons formerly on the steering wheel?

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2006, 11:29:57 pm »

Update: just bought a fanatec speedster 3 force racing wheel for $45 on ebay. I will report back when I get it an rip into it.
thanks all for the help on suggesting this wheel. Sounds like a perfect candidate for using with the happ force feedback if indeed this wheel has the same sort of motor.

mark...
thanks for the writeup. your writeup was indeed what I was referring to in my first post. not trying to take credit away from you.

The ps2/pc is just not an option for me. I have about 50 xbox racing games and most are arcade feeling already on the xbox so it just feels natural playing xbox racing games in a sitdown racing cabinet.

Would you be willing to help me convert this wheel over giving you credit of course. Im just not sure what kind of brushless servo amplifier will be needed to get the proper power to the happ force feedback wheel.

mark shaker · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2006, 12:32:12 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on July 06, 2006, 11:29:57 pm

Would you be willing to help me convert this wheel over giving you credit of course. Im just not sure what kind of brushless servo amplifier will be needed to get the proper power to the happ force feedback wheel.

I really don't have have any expertise in this area, I just tried someting and was lucky enough to have it work.

I can give you these bits of info:

You PCB must be designed to use a "normal" DC motor, without any internal feedback mechanisms.

You will need a "DC Servo Amp for Brush Type Motors".

You don't need a very powerful amp. Mine might be running at 5% of it's capacity.

You will have to configure the AMP to provide output that is proportional to input (disable any speed sensing inputs).

- Mark

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2006, 10:15:04 pm »

Well now that I have the fanatec wheel and had a little chance to play with it...it seems its a really robust wheel. Do i even need to convert over the wheel to arcade. will it be as noticable a difference using the arcade force feedback happ wheel with fantec controls as it was to replace the xbox mc2 pedals with metal arcade ones? because that made a WORLD of difference. If there is not much difference between the wheels I'll just cut this fanatec one and mount it into a control panel!

Kremmit · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2006, 10:39:59 pm »

That sounds like a personal decision to me- If the Fantec wheel feels good enough to you, then it's good enough. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

It's certainly easier to just use it as is...

versapak · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2006, 10:42:48 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on July 11, 2006, 10:15:04 pm

Well now that I have the fanatec wheel and had a little chance to play with it...it seems its a really robust wheel. Do i even need to convert over the wheel to arcade. will it be as noticable a difference using the arcade force feedback happ wheel with fantec controls as it was to replace the xbox mc2 pedals with metal arcade ones? because that made a WORLD of difference. If there is not much difference between the wheels I'll just cut this fanatec one and mount it into a control panel!

I am sure the happ wheel would have a more solid feel, as it is actually built for commercial use, but I doubt the actual feedback would differ all that much.

I personally want you to do the swap anyway, so as to be a guinea pig for the rest of us

, but yeah... If you can fit the Fanatec nicely into your current design, then it probably wouldn't be worth the hassle.

Definitely replace the pedals though. The ones that come with that wheel are ---meadow muffin---.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2006, 12:38:26 am »

No kinding. those pedals with the wheel are absolute junk!
I already have the metal happ pedals wired. I'll would switch out steering wheels just for the fun and robustness of the arcade wheel....but where to put all those buttons ...Im not sure...I dont want to clutter the dashboard up. I was thinking of going with square buttons on the left side of the dash ala daytona usa but I cant source square buttons for less than $10usd each which would cost 40$ for buttons. The only reason I was thinking going with the fantec and no switch (although I already have the force feedback happ wheel in my possession) is because of all the buttons being right there on the wheel.
Im going to take apart the wheel tomorrow and take some pictures of the insides and see what I can come up with.

thanks for your reply and encouragement!

NightGod · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2006, 02:09:17 am »

http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/ipb_sub_min_switch.htm

They got them for $7.50 or so each, and you might be able to get them a little cheaper from one of the distributors on the forums here.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2006, 08:34:10 am »

these were the buttons i was referring to.
http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/ilumn2.htm

NightGod · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2006, 12:37:22 pm »

Ah, so you actually need 8 buttons then? I thought you were talking about needing 4-those ones you linked would make more sense if you needed 8 of them.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2006, 01:53:20 pm »

Well there is 8 buttons on the xbox. The gas and break pedal take up two of them. The shifter I am adding will take up two of them....so that leaves 4 buttons unaccounted for on the dash. I only need 4 square buttons. Sorry if I confused anyone. Maybe Im confused about the square buttons....

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2006, 02:02:40 pm »

wow. I just typed up this really long message and attached pictures and the forum said pictures too big and deleted my entire message...wow. what a waste of time.

to summarize.
I had the wheel 1 day and voided warentee already
Here are some pictures of inside of wheel:
http://www.nnmodels.com/breaktime/fanatec1.jpg
http://www.nnmodels.com/breaktime/fanatec2.jpg
http://www.nnmodels.com/breaktime/happffbwheel.jpg
I dont see why I could use the wheel off the xbox fanatec with all buttons...use the housing/pot and gear from the happ and use the motor from the fanatec. But I will play around....

NightGod · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2006, 02:45:29 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on July 12, 2006, 01:53:20 pm

Well there is 8 buttons on the xbox. The gas and break pedal take up two of them. The shifter I am adding will take up two of them....so that leaves 4 buttons unaccounted for on the dash. I only need 4 square buttons. Sorry if I confused anyone. Maybe Im confused about the square buttons....

Well, the ones you linked have two buttons in each square, the ones I linked are one button per square.

versapak · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2006, 02:56:15 pm »

Quote from: NightGod on July 12, 2006, 02:45:29 pm

Quote from: arcadepcnut on July 12, 2006, 01:53:20 pm
Well there is 8 buttons on the xbox. The gas and break pedal take up two of them. The shifter I am adding will take up two of them....so that leaves 4 buttons unaccounted for on the dash. I only need 4 square buttons. Sorry if I confused anyone. Maybe Im confused about the square buttons....
Well, the ones you linked have two buttons in each square, the ones I linked are one button per square.

The page he linked to does have some dual button ones, but it also has a big square single button as well. It is also slightly cheaper than the one you linked to. Not quite sure why, as I haven't read the pages yet but they are:

54v00043x = $7.55 - Your link

5700043xi = $7.05 - His link

Zeosstud · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2006, 04:35:19 pm »

Hey All,
The Fanatec Wheel is about the best you can get for the Xbox. Getting one for $50 is a great deal and for that price (assuming you could get another) why not hack it up and see what happens, I mean just about everyone on this board has voided a warranty or 2 in search of their "perfect" setup. Personally I have a tendency to turn the force feedback off on my cab but I can turn it back in in a few simple clicks if desired.

Hi Mark, thanks again for your help when I was building my Xbox Driving cab, appreciate it still.

Zeosstud

NightGod · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:16:36 pm »

Quote from: versapak on July 12, 2006, 02:56:15 pm

The page he linked to does have some dual button ones, but it also has a big square single button as well. It is also slightly cheaper than the one you linked to. Not quite sure why, as I haven't read the pages yet but they are:

54v00043x = $7.55 - Your link

5700043xi = $7.05 - His link

Ah, so they are. From what I can see, the ones I linked are half the size, use a smaller switch and are lit, whereas the ones he linked are bigger, use Cherry switches are aren't lit

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:41:51 pm »

nightgod:
which ones are the ones the size of the ones on a daytona usa machine? I want somewhat bigger buttons for easy pushing with one hand on the wheel. I have a buttons in my hand right now that is red and lighted with a bulb and is about 3/4 inch x 1 1/2 inches...which one is that one...because I like that size button. thanks for your help.

versapak · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2006, 12:13:32 am »

Quote from: NightGod on July 12, 2006, 11:16:36 pm

Ah, so they are. From what I can see, the ones I linked are half the size, use a smaller switch and are lit, whereas the ones he linked are bigger, use Cherry switches are aren't lit

It sure doesn't look like there is a bulb in the schematic for the one arcadepcnut linked to, but the description does state:

Fitted as standard with T-31/4 incandescent #161 14v DC bulb

Also the size difference doesn't seem to be all that drastic. There is only a few millimeter difference in the overall size of the square, but one has more button with less bezel.

NightGod · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2006, 01:03:22 am »

Huh, so it does.

Honestly arcadepcnut, I have no clue. All I have to go off of is the schematics they have on that page, and those ones all look like square shaped. If you are looking for rectangle shaped, I think http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/54v00045x.htm are the ones you mean-looks about right, 1.58" by .91" in a wide selection of colors.

Again, I would order them through one of the guys on the board here, you'll save money and help someone in the community.


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