Are CRT TVs a good option for MAME?

[ryandoesntstress]

Really having trouble making a decision on the screen for a mame build. Is it worth considering CRT TVs? I remember I hooked up a PC to one a while ago and remember it being unusable. But that was only in windows, never experimented much with gaming. Are there specific features I should be looking for that would make a crt go well with mame?
I am looking for something cheap and something that can be used as 4:3.

[rCadeGaming]

See the second link in my signature.

[apfelanni]

in case ure located outside us ntsc territory u may adapt a scart rgbtv . if u do it right , meaning native res output gc , a quality tv with few working hours on the tachometer and properly installed mame , its identical to a brandnew arcadescreen + original pcb. got a sony trinitron kv21-x5d for mame testing in my living room . it has less than 5k working hours and the picture is awesome . 

if ure a us resident u have to live with some workarounds , lower pic quality or buy original arcade monitors . or ask someone from the old world to send a used replacement crt set . but i m not sure what would be the best way in fitting a 220v euro tv to a 110v us cabinet. if i have been aware of the desperate situation concerning replacement crts in us/can , i would have filled a sea container 15 years ago when my bro emigrated to canada bc.

[rCadeGaming]

Using a VGA to component transcoder is not an undesirable "workaround."  A proper transcoder will allow for native res RGB picture on an American 15kHz CRT that is just as good as anything with a SCART input.

[apfelanni]

ah right . a trancoder might do the trick . sometimes i m using em in the opposite direction for consoles to output 480p ( like xbox1 and wii ). do smaller tv sets in the us have component in and the ability to display lowres progressive modes ? i know most of the 29 inch 100 hertz tvs have component in , but what about the arcade sized 14-21 inch ?.  my 11 year old niece in can is playing her wii with a yellow composite video cable. they are not aware of things like yuv or progressive mode. poor little girl .

[rCadeGaming]

Good CRT TV's with component are very common in sizes as small as 20" here.  There are probably smaller ones but I haven't looked.  The thing is that with my 27" Trinitron the benefits of native res and RGB/component are pretty obvious, but the smaller the screen is, the harder it is to tell the difference.  I'm planning on making a bartop with a CRT under 10" and composite will be just fine.  You wouldn't be really be able tell the difference between different formats and native res versus scaled on that small of a TV.

Also, all 15kHz CRT TV's (meaning anything pre-480p) are able to display low res progressive.  Even if you hook a Super Nintendo up with an RF adapter, it's still native res 240p, just as it would be with an RGB connection.  The resolution isn't changed with the format, it's just blurrier because the colorspace, sync, and audio signals have all been compressed onto one wire and then decoded apart again in the set, so there is some information lost.  You don't get into resolution differences with different formats until about the late N64-era when some games started offering options for 480p.

[Jack Burton]

I will second the notion that composite video should be re-examined as a viable signal format for arcade gaming.  I had pretty much written it off until I started playing games classic games in 240p on my gamecube on my JVC-TM13U monitor. 

This monitor only supports composite video, but wow, what a difference from most of the budget TV sets that I have compared it to.  It's bright, clean and clear. 

I think a lot of it has to do with Gamecube having a superior video encoding chip compared to older consoles.  Doing direct comparisons of the same game showed the gamecube's composite video to have much less fringing rainbowing, and better clarity overall.

If you could achieve the same video quality by buying a separate RGB>composite video encoder and running your PC to a 19" high quality CRT I think the results could be quite pleasing.  Even better if you can manage S-video. 

The signal format is capable of a lot more than the old cheap encoders and tv's took advantage of.

A side note:  There is a version of MAME for the Wii.  From what I can gather via google, it does not support 240p modes as of yet.  If it could support 240p + syncing to the monitor's refresh rate then it would be an inexpensive and very easy way to get an awesome experience out of any component-ready display. 

[rCadeGaming]

I will second the notion that composite video should be re-examined as a viable signal format for arcade gaming.

Well, I only meant for CRT's that are so small that you can't tell the difference.  On my 27", composite adds a some artifacts, and a general blurriness which also degrades the boldness and general look the of the scanlines.  Sounds like you have a monitor with a very nice NTSC decoding circuit, which is kind of a special case.

Also, anyone else reading this needs realize that when Jack is talking about composite looking good, he is referring to it still carrying native resolutions, which you aren't going to get with the "TV-out" port on a graphics card.

I think a lot of it has to do with Gamecube having a superior video encoding chip compared to older consoles.  Doing direct comparisons of the same game showed the gamecube's composite video to have much less fringing rainbowing, and better clarity overall.

It's probably half the Gamecube's encoding, and half the decoding in the TV.  Without good decoding, it doesn't matter how good the encoding was.

If you could achieve the same video quality by buying a separate RGB>composite video encoder and running your PC to a 19" high quality CRT I think the results could be quite pleasing.  Even better if you can manage S-video.

These are readily available.  Just look for an NTSC encoder.  Professional rack mount stuff pops on eBay a lot.   Here's one available now that should work for you:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cox-NTSC-Color-Encoder-204N-CSS-/300816161813?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460a0a5c15

I'm using a rack mount NTSC decoder to go the other way and convert my NES's composite output to RGB.

The thing about it is that it will still take the same work from user in getting the PC to output native res, so you might as well go with an RGB to component transcoder and get the full quality.  Good 15kHz CRT TV's with component inputs are dirt cheap right now, so this wouldn't make sense for someone else who doesn't already have a really nice composite monitor.

[MonMotha]

If you set it up right and pick your TV appropriately, you can get surprisingly good results out of a TV.  The biggest issue is often that you'll have to futz around in a weird "service mode" interface that's poorly documented (if at all) to adjust the picture geometry (size and position).  If you're using a PC for emulation, you can, to some degree, play with this on the signal source side without affecting the actual imaged area or refresh rate at all.

RGB SCART interfaces are generally the most direct and "best" but, as pointed out, uncommon in the USA.  YPbPr component is, in theory, just as good as RGB, but YMMV depending on how you generate it.  The older video cards with "HDTV component output" can be quite serviceable for this and generate a superb picture with full control over video timing/resolution.  A pure "colorspace transcoder" is also a good option.  The digital ones will often do 4:2:2 chroma downsampling, which is undesirable, but you may be able to find one that doesn't.  Fully analog designs are also possible.  With a good TV, the results should be indistinguishable from RGB if there's no chroma downsampling.

S-Video can even be surprisingly good.  The output you get from a PC is junk - it'll always be poorly scaled and with very low color resolution.  However, I've had quite good luck using an outboard converter based on e.g. the AD725 chip to convert from RGB.  Be sure to find a device that does not scale or anything.  Results depend mostly on the TV, but range from "almost as good as a component format" to "utter junk" depending on several factors.  Of course, this is only doable at 15kHz region (240p/480i) timings.  It won't really work well above that.

Composite is generally crap, but quality varies highly with both how you generate the signal and how good of a TV you use.  In general, if you're picking a TV just for this purpose, avoid one that will force you to use composite video.

The RF (antenna/cable) input will generally give results comparable to composite.  It won't be any better, but done right, it shouldn't be much worse.  Of course, you'll have to use an RF modulator to hook it up to a PC which may add its own problems.

Be aware that many newer CRT TVs, especially those capable of 1080i but also some that can do 480p, include digital scalers that you cannot bypass.  These often introduce lag as well as nasty scaling artifacts.  They are generally not suitable for this purpose.  You'd get better results just using a computer monitor.  There are some rare gems that are actually multisync 15/31kHz, so you can feed them either 240p/480i or 480p, and they'll display it all natively.  These are great for this purpose.  Sets that can go higher without scaling low res modes up seem rare but are probably out there.  If you want higher res, you should look into a presentation monitor or some of the later multisync arcade monitors.

[rCadeGaming]

The biggest issue is often that you'll have to futz around in a weird "service mode" interface that's poorly documented (if at all) to adjust the picture geometry (size and position).

Service manuals are available for Sony's that lists every code in the service menu, what it stands for, and the default value.  Pretty straightforward.

If you're using a PC for emulation, you can, to some degree, play with this on the signal source side without affecting the actual imaged area or refresh rate at all.

Yup.  You want to get the service menu to a happy medium and leave it there, then make your final adjustment to your individual resolutions on the PC end.

The older video cards with "HDTV component output" can be quite serviceable for this and generate a superb picture with full control over video timing/resolution. 

I haven't found any confirmation yet that there are cards like this available that will output proper 15kHz progressive arcade resolutions.  It's best to use the VGA output from a Soft15kHz approved card, and use a VGA to component transcoder (or VGA to SCART where available).

A pure "colorspace transcoder" is also a good option.  The digital ones will often do 4:2:2 chroma downsampling, which is undesirable, but you may be able to find one that doesn't.  Fully analog designs are also possible.  With a good TV, the results should be indistinguishable from RGB if there's no chroma downsampling.

The Crescendo Systems TC1600 is outstanding.  It's pricey, but I think it's worth it.  People ask me about a good cheaper option and I don't have a solid recommendation as of yet.  Some have chroma downsampling, and others seem to have trouble with non-standard timing values.  I'd like to know if a JROK would be a viable option.

Be aware that many newer CRT TVs, especially those capable of 1080i but also some that can do 480p, include digital scalers that you cannot bypass.  These often introduce lag as well as nasty scaling artifacts.  They are generally not suitable for this purpose.  You'd get better results just using a computer monitor.  There are some rare gems that are actually multisync 15/31kHz, so you can feed them either 240p/480i or 480p, and they'll display it all natively.

I always say to be sure to get something that does NOT work with 480p or higher to be sure it's a 15kHz set.  New enough to have component inputs but old enough to be 15kHz-only, around the early 2000's, seems to be the sweet spot.  I've researched and even personally test many models, and I haven't found anything yet that can do 31kHz or more and still be able to display 15kHz without upscaling.  Please let me know if you have any model numbers to look for.