new arcadeVGA anytime soon?? Now with a POLL

[squirrellydw]

Does anyone think some one will release a new arcadeVGA for PCI express?  Just asking in case someone has heard anything.

[Fozzy The Bear]

It could do with an update.... even if that doesn't take it up to PCI Express...  It's only a 9200 series card right now... Not exactly cutting edge stuff. In fact it's not even a DirectX-9 capable card.  Which does make it more than a bit useless for those of us who run things other than Mame on our cabs. 

Which is why for now at least I'll stick to my 9600XT......

Personally I'm not over enthused about PCI Express. There isn't a heck of a lot out there that can actually benefit from it. But that said, it'll be the only bus available on Motherboards very shortly (until they decide on some other new fangled bus to con money out of us with that is) so I guess It's the way it should go.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[edge]

An updated ArcadeVGA on the new ATI/Nvidia platforms would be great.

Is Ultimarc/Andy the only producer of this modded card?

[squirrellydw]

I was thinking GGG could get involved

[pointdablame]

An updated ArcadeVGA on the new ATI/Nvidia platforms would be great.

Is Ultimarc/Andy the only producer of this modded card?

yup, its an Ultimarc only product.  GGG could try to make a competing version, but it wouldn't be an "ArcadeVGA" for obvious reasons.  It would have to be more than just a copy of the card on a different chipset as I assume that would cause problems with Andy.

FWIW, I don't really see a need for an upgrade just yet.  AGP slots are still available for now, and many, MANY people run MAME on systems that are not bleeding edge.  There are also very few people running high end PC games on their MAME machines that would require, say, a 6900 or x1900 card.  FEAR and Half Life 2 would not play well with a joystick and buttons IMO.

I'm all for "more power" but I dont' really see a need right now.

[Kremmit]

I wish Andy'd make a plain PCI version, for all those dirt cheap older computers out there with no AGP slot.  PCI Express?   Maybe I'll be MAMEing with a PCI Express mobo in 5 years.

[Teebor]

If they were to revise the card to PCI-e then you would be getting an AGP card out of it as well as all they need to do is throw in a Bridge chip to the mix and voila PCI-e becomes AGP, sometimes I cant believe its so simple. (oh and change the edge connector of course)

I guess development of a card like that is not the first thing on anyones mind though as it is a very niche product.  I still bet they sell a few though being the only supplier of that card

[Minwah]

Lets not forget the AVGA is really primarily for MAME.  This means on the whole low-resolution modes with no hardware acceleration/effects.  I'm still using the old 7000 series AVGA and for this purpose it works great.

[Timoe]

I dont own anything with an AGP slot.  But I've got unused PCI express slots all over the place.

I guess this is the only reason I haven't blown that $500 for a WG9200.


 

[divemaster127]

The arcadevga works awesome with aracade monitors & most of us are using agp for mame, just fyi I am now selling the arcadevga in my buy/sell thread same price 89.00 but these ship from the united states for less shipping
thanks
dm

[Harry Potter]

PCIe Arcade VGA for MAME would be overkill. No way would it even come close to utilising the full bandwidth of the PCIe bus. Or the AGP for that matter.

For stuff like Doom 3, hell yeah but that game looks better on a monitor anyway.

But a Plain-Jane PCI version would be cool. 

[Minwah]

But a Plain-Jane PCI version would be cool. 

But pointless from Ultimarc's point of view.  Even my oldest PC (P2 233) has an AGP slot...

[Harry Potter]

Yeah I know. Still, it'd be great for those old clunkers which can run all the old console emulators and stuff.

[Kremmit]

But a Plain-Jane PCI version would be cool. 

But pointless from Ultimarc's point of view.  Even my oldest PC (P2 233) has an AGP slot...

Yeah, but you build your own computers.  Store bought ones, especially older ones, often skipped the AGP, in favor or on-board video.  I've got a pair of decent Gateways I got for free just sitting here.  No AGP.  My parent's Dell- no AGP. 

[edge]

I am interested in a newer chipset because I am running more than just MAME on my cab (ie, other emus, PC driving games, etc).  I agree that HL2/Fear/<insert FPS here> wouldn't be fun on a cab though.

[squirrellydw]

I would think it would have to be updated eventually.  Most of the MB don't have AGP, so what are we supposed to do in a year or two?

[pointdablame]

I am interested in a newer chipset because I am running more than just MAME on my cab (ie, other emus, PC driving games, etc).  I agree that HL2/Fear/<insert FPS here> wouldn't be fun on a cab though.

The point is, what games will you be playing with arcade controls that you need to go over 800x600 AND won't run on a 9200.  No other emus will be bothered by the AVGA chipset.. you can run whatever emus you want with it.

It's just personal preference, so I'm not trying to change your mind... I just don't understand playing newer PC games on arcade cabs.  Any "newer" PC games that would work well on a cab usually have low requirements so the AVGA would be fine.  Any new game that requires 16x12 resolution with an SLI setup is not meatn for a cab anyway IMHO.

Get a PC for hardcore new PC games.. stick with arcadey games and emus on the cab.

[Minwah]

Yeah, but you build your own computers.  Store bought ones, especially older ones, often skipped the AGP, in favor or on-board video.  I've got a pair of decent Gateways I got for free just sitting here.  No AGP.  My parent's Dell- no AGP. 

Actually, my old 233 is a Dell...

[MYX]

The name sort of states it's purpose. ARCADE vga.
Mike Q's company can sell you  a realll nice card for a realll nice monitor for a realll nice computer to play high end games. Althought, I guess the AVGA is an ATI as well though.

[Scott84]

It would be nice to see Andy respond   

[AndyWarne]

I have started preliminary work on a PCI-e version but no timescale yet. In fact, many motherboard manufacturers who started to drop AGP slots are back-tracking and bringing them back again. AGP will be around for a long time yet but that's no reason to do nothing on PCI-e.
The current card is DX-9 compatible so not sure about that comment.
Andy

[Timoe]

I will eventually WANT to upgrade to a WG9200 but I only have PCI and PCI-e

[Havok]

One of my swappable panels is a keyboard\mouse, so I can use the cab as a regular computer. That's the main reason I have a PCIe card now - ATI X300. Works pretty well even with my LCD screen and the lower resolutions for MAME. I don't have any of the scrolling\choppiness that some people report. No ArcadeVGA for me, the new stuff just requires way more power...

[Scott84]

Andy, i know you dont have a timescale for it, but are you thinking it will be out by XMAS?

[Fozzy The Bear]

The current card is DX-9 compatible so not sure about that comment.

That's not what I said Andy.... The current 9200 chipset you are using may be compatible with DirectX-9. BUT it's only compatible in the sense that it runs DirectX-8 optimisations under DirectX-9.... It can't run any programming that has specific DirectX9 Coding in it.

The 9200 is simply not a DriectX-9 Chipset. The first DirectX-9 ATI Chipset was the 9550 AFAIK.

There are also very few people running high end PC games on their MAME machines that would require, say, a 6900 or x1900 card.  FEAR and Half Life 2 would not play well with a joystick and buttons IMO.

I do !!  and FEAR plays very nicely on buttons and joysticks thanks.... Quite apart from the fact that my cab also has a keyboard draw and isn't solely a MAME machine..... It's also a PVR and gets used for video editing (where processing power and graphics speed is everything).

So for me, I do see a need for a new card... that has a bit more poke than an ATI 9200.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[PoDunkMoFo]

I do !!  and FEAR plays very nicely on buttons and joysticks thanks.... Quite apart from the fact that my cab also has a keyboard draw and isn't solely a MAME machine..... It's also a PVR and gets used for video editing (where processing power and graphics speed is everything).

Do these programs actually translate well on an arcade monitor?  Seems like they would just be a hell of a lot better ran on a High-res PC monitor.

Maybe to poll should be how many people would actually run these types of progies on there cab.

From my point of view I would possibly like to run a few pc type games but they would be more the shareware arcade throw back type things.  I think PCI would be good also as Kremmit mentioned due to maximum PC compatibility.  I also agree that it would be good to see a newer chipset if those two things are not mutually exclusive.

FWIW

[pointdablame]

I do !!  and FEAR plays very nicely on buttons and joysticks thanks.... Quite apart from the fact that my cab also has a keyboard draw and isn't solely a MAME machine..... It's also a PVR and gets used for video editing (where processing power and graphics speed is everything).

So for me, I do see a need for a new card... that has a bit more poke than an ATI 9200.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Sorry, but I don't buy that.  Anyone who REALLY plays FPS games will tell you a joystick and buttons will not play the games well.  Not to mention most button layouts are horrible for it.  In addition.. you like playing FEAR at 800x600? I certainly don't.  As for your keyboard and mouse... you don't want to play FPS games standing up either.  If you have a stool fine... but you're still staring at a crappy res game that should be running on a high end video card.

High end FPS's are meant to be played on high res screens with a keyboard and mouse... or those FPS specific controllers if they're your cup of tea.

You may play them on your cab, but not many people do.  I also doubt that Andy wants to deal with 2 AVGA cards at the same time, as it would just cost more and be confusing.  Plus to play good PC games these days at decent rates, he'll have to bump up to a pretty powerful chipset and probably double the price of the card.

Down the road, I'm sure a PCIe AVGA will pop up, and it'll be popular, but I'd bet money that it still uses a low to mid range chipset (at the time of release) and will NOT be focused on PC gaming.  That's what PC video cards are for, not the ARCADE VGA.

PCs are for high end PC games, Mame cabs are for Arcade games and arcadey PC titles.  My .02

[squirrellydw]

I don't have one yet but I think it needs to be updated just to keep up with most of the new MB out there.  I don't care what chipset it uses as long as it plays the classics the way they should be played.  Now if some how you can do both with one card that would be cool.  Of course you would need a monitor that supports it.

[Fozzy The Bear]

PCs are for high end PC games, Mame cabs are for Arcade games and arcadey PC titles.  My .02

What you use your cab for is entirely up to you.... What I use my cab for is not up to you.  My .02

Sorry, but I don't buy that.  Anyone who REALLY plays FPS games will tell you a joystick and buttons will not play the games well. 

You have a very insulting turn of phrase.... So apparently now I don't REALLY play FPS's.... I'll just go back to my cab and enjoy a few more of the FPS games I apparently don't play

What else is it that you don't buy... You don't buy that my cab gets used as a PVR and video edit console and don't buy that it therefore needs as much processing and video power as I can get in there?? .....AGAIN What you use your cab for is entirely up to you.... What I use my cab for is not up to you.  My .02

Not to mention most button layouts are horrible for it.  In addition.. you like playing FEAR at 800x600? I certainly don't.

That's up to you.....  My cab happens to have a multisync in it and runs Arcade resolutions and very high PC resolutions  AGAIN...What you use your cab for is entirely up to you.... What I use my cab for is not up to you.  My .02

You don't like somebody else using their cab for anything other than Mame. Well tough! Grow up and get over it.

Your Avatar quite suits you doesn't it.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[SirPeale]

I guess this is the only reason I haven't blown that $500 for a WG9200.

IIRC the 9200 has a VGA input.

[krick]

Seeing as current CPU technology has hit a wall, Intel and AMD are both pimping multi-core techologies as "the future", and MAME will never take advantage of multi-core CPUs, the current AGP based motherboards will be the boards of choice for MAME cabinets for quite some time.

I recently built a new MAME computer based on a modern AGP socket 939 motherboard paired with an ArcadeVGA.  It currently sports an Opteron 148 overclocked to 2.8GHz, essentially a poor man's FX-57.

Single core really doesn't get any faster than that unless you resort to exotic cooling that isn't really appropriate for use in a MAME cabinet.

So, basically, I don't see the point in a PCI express version of the ArcadeVGA.

As a side note,  Windows 9x doesn't have any PCI express support.  Furthermore, chipset makers aren't providing Windows 9x drivers.  So when Andy switches over to PCI express, that's the end of Windows 9x for MAME cabinets.

[pointdablame]

You don't like somebody else using their cab for anything other than Mame. Well tough! Grow up and get over it.

Your Avatar quite suits you doesn't it.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

It's just personal preference, so I'm not trying to change your mind... I just don't understand playing newer PC games on arcade cabs. 

hmm... reading comprehension......   

Sorry if my emotion-less text rubbed you the wrong way, but its just opinion.  No need to get all bent out of shape and tell me to grow up.   

And if you are using a monitor that accepts high res resolutions, you can easily set up the cab WITHOUT an AVGA.  But whatever.... I'll go grow up now.

[Minwah]

You don't buy that my cab gets used as a PVR and video edit console and don't buy that it therefore needs as much processing and video power as I can get in there??

I couldn't care less what you do, but you must admit, it's unusual (I nearly said 'wierd' until I remembered your short fuse  ) to want to do video editing on an arcade cabinet...certainly it's not the kind of application an ArcadeVGA-style card would be aimed at.

[RayB]

IMO if you need your MAME cab to still do other "PC" things, then you should stick with a high resolution multi-sync monitor. Therefore, no need for an ArcadeVGA card.

[squirrellydw]

IMO if you need your MAME cab to still do other "PC" things, then you should stick with a high resolution multi-sync monitor. Therefore, no need for an ArcadeVGA card.

Are you saying if I go with this monitor Billabs BL27CB0P I don't need to use an AVGA and any card will do?  I plan on using it mostly for Mame but maybe some other games as well.

[divemaster127]

You can use whatever video card you want with a monitor, but if you want the best picture/most trouble free resolutions use arcadevga , in my case i have a 3000+amd 64 chip with a arcadecga & betson 27" arcade monitor, I just turn it on & player if you use a different card you will have to work at it, I suggest reading kevin's review at retroblast.com he has a ex cellant story on the arcadevga, most people agree if you want the cream of the crop for your machine use a arcadevga with a betson or wells gardner 9200...in my case i only use my cab for retro games, i have 2 other computers for doom III, WOW or anyother pc games
thanks
dm

[markrvp]

IMO if you need your MAME cab to still do other "PC" things, then you should stick with a high resolution multi-sync monitor. Therefore, no need for an ArcadeVGA card.

Are you saying if I go with this monitor Billabs BL27CB0P I don't need to use an AVGA and any card will do?  I plan on using it mostly for Mame but maybe some other games as well.

There is actually no reason to get that monitor UNLESS you want to run arcade resolutions with the AVGA card or a program like SmartStrip.  The reason you get the AVGA card is because it will output native arcade resolutions at 15.7 kHz, the same frequency used by Arcade monitors.  The multi-sync monitors like the Billabs will accept multiple frequencies so that you can play Robotron at 292x240 resolution at 15.75 Khz, but still play Half-Life 2 at 1024x768 resolution.  However, in order to do that, you must have a VGA card that is capable of outputting that entire range of resolutions and frequencies.

[krick]

The ArcadeVGA has special drivers for multi-sync monitors for the D9200 that allow it to run at 31KHz as well as 15Khz so you get the best of both worlds.

I'm just not sure if the drivers are specific to the D9200 or if they will work with any multi-sync arcade monitor. Since the card doesn't detect the monitor, I assume they're generic and will work with any of them.

You should send an email to andy @ ultimarc and possibly kevin @ retroblast, I'm sure they'll know what you should do.

The main reason to use an arcade monitor with the ArcadeVGA is to be able to play games at their native resolution, usually 15KHz.  To do that with "normal" video cards, you need to mess with powerstrip and/or AdvanceMAME.  Personally, I don't think it's worth the trouble so I went with an ArcadeVGA.

[divemaster127]

The above post is a good one, im the same way, I do not want a cab when my friends come over that I have to fool with the monitor & video card just to get different games to work with the arcadevga you turn it on & its trouble free...again kevin's review at retroblast.com is really worth reading
dm

[squirrellydw]

ok thanks, I will use the AVGA for sure than

[Fozzy The Bear]

hmm... reading comprehension......   

You insult me with:

Anyone who REALLY plays FPS games will tell you a joystick and buttons will not play the games well. 

AFTER I've said that I play FPS games on my cab... You pop up an claim I don't REALLY play fps games.... No reading comprehension problem at all there. 

Just for your information... My other half REALLY REALLY plays FPS Games on the cab. She was an Unreal Tournament National Championship runner up, a few years ago... She'll be more than happy to tell you that they play very nicely on an arcade cab. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to also meet you in an arena and kick your butt very soundly while playing from the cab .

And if you are using a monitor that accepts high res resolutions, you can easily set up the cab WITHOUT an AVGA.  But whatever....

As Krick has so kindly pointed out for you.... "The ArcadeVGA has special drivers for multi-sync monitors that allow it to run at 31KHz as well as 15Khz so you get the best of both worlds."

While no doubt you understand that the point of AVGA is to run arcade games at their native resolution and refresh.  On a Multisync that means that it's also possible to run High res PC games, and that BOTH can and do live quite hapilly on the same machine.

So as I said in the first place... For me an update of the AVGA card to something with a bit more horsepower than a 9200 would be an advantage.

What exactly is it that you can't manage to comprehend about that??

Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

I couldn't care less what you do, but you must admit, it's unusual (I nearly said 'wierd' until I remembered your short fuse  ) to want to do video editing on an arcade cabinet...certainly it's not the kind of application an ArcadeVGA-style card would be aimed at.

You can call me wierd if you want... LOL  You're allowed... You wrote the best front end on the planet, that makes life so much easier.

It IS an odd application for an arcade cab, I agree with you completely.... But take the following into account and it starts to look a lot less odd: When I or my other half are not playing games, it means the computer is churning away processing video and not tying up my other machine. It is a very slow process sometimes, even with a lot of horsepower. BUT, given that I shelled out money for the hardware in the cab, it might as well be doing something useful when I'm not playing games on it.

When I am playing games, I do like to have the choice between Arcade and high end PC games... and it means I'm again not tying up the machine connected to the internet, and which a lot of my work also sits on. Q.E.D.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[pointdablame]

What exactly is it that you can't manage to comprehend about that??

I understand your entire argument, but you have yet to see the point of my argument.  I am not saying NO ONE could use a better chipset on the AVGA.  My argument is it is NOT NECESSARY. Big difference.

You are in the minority... the very small minority IMHO.  Andy would have to either convert all AVGA cards to PCIe with a better chipset, OR handle 2 product lines of an extremely niche product.  Also, it would make no sense to jump from a 9200 to another mid range chipset in your argument, so he'd have to go to a much newer chipset, and thus as I already mentioned, probably at least double the cost of a card.

So in that situation you'd have either
- A cheaper AGP card and a much more expensive PCIe card - the problem with this is that people who want to use a PCIe card on a MAME cab probably doesn't want to spend $200+ on a video card when MOST people use it for arcade games.  (again, i say MOST)

-ONLY the expensive PCIe card... now you've alienated AGP folks AND folks who want a simple PCIe card, not a high end card

- Or maybe there should be THREE versions?  AGP, low-end PCIe, high-end PCIe... or throw in a PCI card for FOUR...


It's not financially viable and makes little to no business sense.  I'm not attacking you personally, which you can't seem to understand... it's just silly IMO to upgrade the the chipset at this point in time.

[squirrellydw]

So what is Andy doing, he has to be following this.  He said he is working on a PCIe card, does this include a new chipset or the same chipset just for PCIe?  From the little experience I have, I agree there is no reason to put an expensive chipset on it but I think it needs to go to PCIe or just PCI.

[Crony]

I have the D9200 and Andy's card and if you can afford it, IMO it is the best solution of all. It plays everything and seems to magically change the refresh rates and resolutions. This combo is expensive, but really rocks!!

[Bloinkxp]

Hi All,
I'd like to put my two cent/pence in.
Just given the evolution of the Video Card period I doubt that Andy would use a PCI device.  Quite simply it looks as though it has a definite end of life.  I have been with computers since the Mono/CGA days on the ISA bus...I can smell a dead graphics bus a mile away.  The PCI X1 quite simply can accomplish the bandwidth of a PCI device and is future proof...

Also, an AVGA is great device that was made for the Arcade group.  It really shines displaying arcade resolutions on an arcade monitor.  If I were a hard core gamer, why would I play Unreal Tournament 2k3 on that?  Why not install an big honkin XGA monitor in my cabinet and play it with the eye candy turned up?

.02 given,
-D

[pointdablame]

So what is Andy doing, he has to be following this.  He said he is working on a PCIe card, does this include a new chipset or the same chipset just for PCIe?  From the little experience I have, I agree there is no reason to put an expensive chipset on it but I think it needs to go to PCIe or just PCI.

It would have to be a different chipset as I'm fairly sure there is no PCIe variant of the 9200 chipset.  The real question is whether it would be based on a low to mid range chipset (like the current AGP ArcadeVGA is), or a high end chipset that some people in the thread said would benefit them.  Of course the other imporant thing to consider is WHEN to introduce it.  We all know that the current AVGA won't be around forever... but should the new version come out in a month? 3? 6? a year?

[Fozzy The Bear]

I understand your entire argument, but you have yet to see the point of my argument.  I am not saying NO ONE could use a better chipset on the AVGA.  My argument is it is NOT NECESSARY. Big difference.

I do absolutely understand your argument.... I don't actually agree with it.. There's a difference.

I'm not pushing for a PCI-E Card... in fact I haven't said that anywhere. I would however like to see it as an 8X AGP card.  I personally think, that has much more life span in it.  PCI-E is, as several people have pointed out, already being backtracked on, with manufacturers putting out new boards with high end AGP on them.

Granted that it's going to cost a little more for the new card. But, we're not exactly talking mega bucks here.

While I agree it'd have very little benefit in Mame (at the moment), it would have a huge benefit to any Direct-X Windows Game.  That way we get the best of both worlds.

IMHO It wouldn't hurt at all to be moving AVGA up to an  X800 on AGP 8X and that's actually a scaleable card that can be stuck on a PCI-E bus as well at next to no additional cost apart from a very basic PCB change.

I'm afraid that your argument that it doesn't necessarily need an upgrade (at the moment) is rather much a non starter...... I suspect that Andy has absolutely no choice about it. 9200 chipsets have not been manufactured for quite a while now...... He has to move onward and upward if he wants to carry on producing AVGA Cards. So really the only question is where to take it to.  X800 on AGP 8X ..IMHO makes the most sense (at the moment). Low cost, above mid range performance and maximum compatibility.

In actual fact it makes more sense for Andy to upgrade it (from a business model point of view) Because the more people that can find uses for it, no matter how diverse or nich market those uses are, the more people he can actually sell it to.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

an AVGA is great device that was made for the Arcade group.  It really shines displaying arcade resolutions on an arcade monitor.  If I were a hard core gamer, why would I play Unreal Tournament 2k3 on that?

That is exacxtly the point.... It needs to be able to do both! At the moment it can't hack it with the PC Games.  The 9200 was a pretty crap chipset even when it was newly released. Almost all of the 3D sites slated it.

There's no reason why it won't still shine at running arcade monitors after being upgraded, if that's what you want to do. But if it does both, then Andy hugely increases his pottential market.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[kujina]

I wanna ISA version of the AVGA cos I have a crusty 386 and I'm a cheap b@/*#

[Ahigh]

I don't claim to know, but I heard you don't really need special graphics cards if you know what you're doing.

--
- Ahigh

[pointdablame]

I don't claim to know, but I heard you don't really need special graphics cards if you know what you're doing.

--
- Ahigh

You dont.  But the AVGA makes it so insanely simple, that it's not worth the trouble to a lot of people to mess with other cards.