New Product: Gyramite Arcade Spinner (Maybe...)

[whammoed]

OK, all I have right now is a prototype.  I'm such a tease.  I do plan to produce this in some capacity though.  Just when you thought you've been bombarded enough already with spinner threads, eh?
Here are the key features:
-500 CPR!!!! Most Sensitive Arcade Spinner on the market
-Plays spinner games with the same sensitivity they had in the arcade 
-Dual high quality bearings for smooth spins
-Two different mounting styles: Metal or Wood panel 
-Replaceable Bearings 
-Sturdy aluminum frame with small 2" x 1.75" footprint 
-Stainless Steel shaft weight

There's been a lot of talk lately about spinner resolution and the dilemma of wanting the resolution of an Arkanoid spinner at 486 CPR and a non geared spinner like that of Tempest all in the same package.  Well it turns out there is technology already available that can give you both, and in a *very* small package.  The only downside is that it is expensive...who could have guessed?    I have been contemplating spinner designs since the absence of a well respected vendor(Hmmm, who could that be?  Come back full time please!).  I have to give thanks to my machinist in helping with the prototype.  He is a BYOAC member and will make himself known if he chooses.  Within the last few months I have nailed down the encoder part of the equation.  This spinner, in my opinion, is the best compromise when looking for an "all in one" spinner.

Please check out www.nicemite.com to see a video of the spinner in action. (I have a few other cool things I will be offering in the next few months)

Questions and comments are welcome.  This is my hobby, and like others who offer products, not my *real* job.  I will answer any question to the best of my knowledge so ask away.
Here are a couple I anticipate, so I will go ahead and answer them.
Q: Is the Gyramite a stand alone spinner or does it need an encoder to plug into my pc?
A:  It needs an encoder.  I am in the process of testing the various encoders available to us and will report the results in this thread.
Q: What kind of spinner is the Gyramite?  Is there resistance or is it real "spinny"?
A:  This spinner is free spinning.  Think Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going.  This does not enhance game play in any way, its just fun.
Q:  How is the "Metal mounting style" different.
A:  The metal mounting style is meant for those of us with metal control panels.  The mounting holes are meant for #8 carriage bolts or screws and are close to center.  The spinner knob I am getting quotes for has a recess in the bottom that will cover the mounting bolts/screws so there will be no visible bolt heads on the panel.  (Spinner knob shown in picture is an "off the shelf" knob...its the one I have on my cab right now in fact    )

Please discuss, good or bad.  I need to know what the community here wants.  It will be an expensive venture to get the first run of these produce at a "reasonable" cost.  I don't mind keeping profits to a minimum (or nothing in some cases), but I would like to recoup the costs for development and not end up thousands in debt with a bunch of spinners in my living room.

[PoDunkMoFo]

How bout pricing?

[whammoed]

How bout pricing?

Well, I don't have all quotes in yet.  But the plan is to offer a "basic" version that will be reasonable.  Say in the $65 - $75 range.  Heh, its amazing what I consider reasonable after being in this hobby for a while. 

[Major Rock Hardy]

whammoed, my man...

awesome!  Keep it up!  Your timing is uncanny

I suppose you're working towards a DOT spinner as well?

Rock

[whammoed]

whammoed, my man...

awesome!  Keep it up!  Your timing is uncanny

I suppose you're working towards a DOT spinner as well?

Rock

Ha!  I, like many others, have been throwing around designs for that in my head.  Its funny how similar ideas are between different people.  Maybe there is only one way to skin a cat! 

[juggle50]

Wow Whammoed, way to go.

I am so overwhelmed by the spinner options right now, I don't know what to think.  Is there anyway you could lend the prototype to someone (unbiased) on the site or retroblast and we could have someone do an emergency three way comparision.

I don't think the price is too bad (reletivly speaking) but I don't want to reinvest in a spinner unless I know I've got the best one.

The only thing spinning right now is my head.

[KDOG]

I don't see the video link.

[whammoed]

Wow Whammoed, way to go.

I am so overwhelmed by the spinner options right now, I don't know what to think.  Is there anyway you could lend the prototype to someone (unbiased) on the site or retroblast and we could have someone do an emergency three way comparision.

I don't think the price is too bad (reletivly speaking) but I don't want to reinvest in a spinner unless I know I've got the best one.

The only thing spinning right now is my head.

Great idea.  I'm not quite done with all my testing, but I have no problem with others taking it for a "spin".

[whammoed]

I don't see the video link.

go to www.nicemite.com and click on Watch the Spin Video!

[KDOG]

It doesn't give me the option to click it, it just displays writing cursor

[quarterback]

It doesn't give me the option to click it, it just displays writing cursor

Me too, but here's a direct link http://www.nicemite.com/Gyramite/02ProtoSpin.MPG

Welcome to the spinner flood whammoed!

[whammoed]

It doesn't give me the option to click it, it just displays writing cursor

Gotcha, what browser are you using?
here is a direct link:
http://www.nicemite.com/Gyramite/02ProtoSpin.MPG

[KDOG]

fierfox i will tryh in ie

[whammoed]

It doesn't give me the option to click it, it just displays writing cursor

Me too, but here's a direct link http://www.nicemite.com/Gyramite/02ProtoSpin.MPG

Welcome to the spinner flood whammoed!

Bah! You are quick.  Thanks!

[quarterback]

It doesn't give me the option to click it, it just displays writing cursor

Me too, but here's a direct link http://www.nicemite.com/Gyramite/02ProtoSpin.MPG

Welcome to the spinner flood whammoed!

Bah! You are quick.  Thanks!

    

BTW, I'm using Ffox.   After your last post (asking KDOG what  browser) I tried IE and discovered what my "problem" was.  My pop-up blockers were stopping the video from appearing.   If I allow pop-ups, it'll play through either browser.  The only (noticeable) difference is that IE shows me the "hand" like there's a link there and FFox shows the "writing" cursor.

[KDOG]

works fine in ie but I had to turn off the popup blocker to view it. nice spinner by the way.



edit

what quaterback said.

[whammoed]

BTW, I'm using Ffox.   After your last post (asking KDOG what  browser) I tried IE and discovered what my "problem" was.  My pop-up blockers were stopping the video from appearing.   If I allow pop-ups, it'll play through either browser.  The only (noticeable) difference is that IE shows me the "hand" like there's a link there and FFox shows the "writing" cursor.

Ok.  Makes sense.  Some of that was done with Macromedia specific stuff so its not surprising.  I will look into a more generic way to do it.  Thanks.

[RayB]

I think the solution to "Tempest/Arkanoid" all in one solution would be a gear or roller that you switch into place to physically restrict the motion. Switch it off for free-spin. On for slow spin. Maybe a clamp with rubber cylinders...

[whammoed]

I think the solution to "Tempest/Arkanoid" all in one solution would be a gear or roller that you switch into place to physically restrict the motion. Switch it off for free-spin. On for slow spin. Maybe a clamp with rubber cylinders...

As is, this won't provide the "resistant feel" of the arkanoid spinner.  The first step was to have a free spinning unit with the proper resolution.  I have some ideas about increasing the resistance on the fly, but thats down the road.  In my testing I've found that making slight contact with the control panel with your fingers during gameplay can help a bit.

Also, with this design, it is possible to change the resistance slightly by varying the pressure on the bearings.  This may be a feature some find useful.

[whammoed]

Here is a pic of the spinner next to the runner up prototype.  This shows the wood panel mounting style on the left and metal panel style on the right.

[Franco]

I have to give thanks to my machinist in helping with the prototype.  He is a BYOAC member and will make himself known if he chooses. 

Glad to be of service

[Brax]

All I can say is, thank god there may be an alternative to GGG and SS.

[Xiaou2]

 For such a high res encoder..  I believe you will have to use software or a hardware button to change the resolution on the fly.   Otherwise, games which use lower resoultion will control poorly  (meaning, it will be too sensative to controll well).

 Also, since the encoder wheel is so 'fine' .. a spec of dust could cause havok.   The encoder wheel should be enclosed.  I believe they sell them enclosed with the actual optics internally attached.   

 The centering on the disc will have to be perfect.. and the optics will have to be nearly vibration proof,  As any 'play'  happening durring reading, will cause major accuracy problems.   Also the shaft will need to have no play either.

 I wouldnt dump too much money into it..  as Im sure RandyT will have copied it in a few days of your product release,  start selling it,  and trash talk your design in an Announcement  thread              

 

 
 
 

[Fozzy The Bear]

OK, all I have right now is a prototype.  I'm such a tease.  I do plan to produce this in some capacity though. 

Wohhh!  Three spinners to choose from now!........ Well two, because there's one I won't buy from.

OK some questions that I didn't see answered.....

1) How are you getting that sort of resolution without gearing and what sort of encoder wheel is it using?.

2) do you suffer from any backspin problems at such a high resolution??

OK now some observations...

That's a nice bit of design... Using an alloy tube is a very neat way to do it.

One thing to bear in mind is that the price needs to be looked at.... Both of the other two spinners on the market include an encoder for the same price that you want for this one. You might need to consider lowering the price a bit or throwing an encoder in with them.

Other than that... Nice work..

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

I wouldnt dump too much money into it..  as Im sure RandyT will have copied it in a few days of your product release,  start selling it,  and trash talk your design in an Announcement  thread              

I doubt that.... But no doubt that Slik Stick will be accusing you of stealing all of his ideas and copying his design.               

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Minwah]

As is, this won't provide the "resistant feel" of the arkanoid spinner.  The first step was to have a free spinning unit with the proper resolution.  I have some ideas about increasing the resistance on the fly, but thats down the road.  In my testing I've found that making slight contact with the control panel with your fingers during gameplay can help a bit.

Also, with this design, it is possible to change the resistance slightly by varying the pressure on the bearings.  This may be a feature some find useful.

I know I would rather have the option to make the spinner NOT spin for ages.  I know this 'feature' is popular, but no arcade machine had spinners like this so I don't really see the point.

I think variable resistance (if possible), would make a great feature.

[JoyMonkey]

I think variable resistance (if possible), would make a great feature.

Anybody ever done 'spinning' at the gym? The spinning machines (modified excercise bikes) have a little knob that you twist to adjust resistance, it moves felt pads closer or further from the wheel, making it easier or more difficult to spin.

[RichyRich]

One thing to bear in mind is that the price needs to be looked at.... Both of the other two spinners on the market include an encoder for the same price that you want for this one. You might need to consider lowering the price a bit or throwing an encoder in with them.

Other than that... Nice work..

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I don't think the extra cost would be an issue to most of us if it turns out to be the best compatible spinner...Great work!!

[Tiger-Heli]

Cool design, congratulations!!!

Neat how the wood base also moves around as you spin it (in the video) - j/k 

Seriously - what is the below panel depth?

Interesting that you can also use the metal panel method with a wood panel - this allows you to use carriage bolts (better/easier that screws/inserts, especially for MDF) and yet not have any visible bolt heads on the top of the panel - nice touch, IMHO.

Price is maybe more than I would pay, but not necessarily out-of-line, considering the resolution and  that http://www.oscarcontrols.com/order.htm - V2 with knob was $71 and Vortex with knob was $77, both without encoders - and the Tornado was around $100 until GGG entered the market.

I don't think that the high res encoder wheel will create problems with low res games, but you may need a high-quality interface to prevent backspin or missed "spokes".  Alignment will be critical, but I assume Whammoed has taken this into account.

FWIW . . .

[Havok]

Also, since the encoder wheel is so 'fine' .. a spec of dust could cause havok.   

I promise not to appear, if you have a spec of dust!

Looks cool so far. How's the Star Wars yoke prototype coming?

 

[Kremmit]

I wouldnt dump too much money into it..  as Im sure RandyT will have copied it in a few days of your product release,  start selling it,  and trash talk your design in an Announcement  thread              

I doubt that.... But no doubt that Slik Stick will be accusing you of stealing all of his ideas and copying his design.               

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

No, neither of them can claim it's copied, because you don't have a c-frame design, which seems to be the point of contention.

This guy's got a box design, though:
http://www.arcadegames4u.com/pc-50-48-cyclone-spinner.aspx

But his encoder wheel is awfully low res. 

Nice work!

[whammoed]

 For such a high res encoder..  I believe you will have to use software or a hardware button to change the resolution on the fly.   Otherwise, games which use lower resoultion will control poorly  (meaning, it will be too sensative to controll well).
  

No.  Lowering the sensitivity setting in MAME has worked fine.  More testing to follow.

Also, since the encoder wheel is so 'fine' .. a spec of dust could cause havok.   The encoder wheel should be enclosed.  I believe they sell them enclosed with the actual optics internally attached.   

No.  According to the manufacturer the disc performs fine in even dusty, dirty environments.  They claim you can black out the encoder disc with a magic marker and it will still work.  Although an arcade cab does accumulate dust over time, it wouldn't be considered a dusty environment.  The manufacturer does have housings but that would add unneeded cost and design issues.

The centering on the disc will have to be perfect.. and the optics will have to be nearly vibration proof,  As any 'play'  happening durring reading, will cause major accuracy problems.   Also the shaft will need to have no play either.

Yes, alignment is important.  There is virtually no play in the shaft.  I was able to get things in spec on the prototypes using handtools.  I'm sure my machinist can handle it.

I wouldnt dump too much money into it..  as Im sure RandyT will have copied it in a few days of your product release,  start selling it,  and trash talk your design in an Announcement  thread              
  

 
 
 

[Warborg]

I wouldnt dump too much money into it..  as Im sure RandyT will have copied it in a few days of your product release,  start selling it,  and trash talk your design in an Announcement  thread              

Just can't let it die in the other thread, eh? 

[whammoed]

Wohhh!  Three spinners to choose from now!........ Well two, because there's one I won't buy from.

OK some questions that I didn't see answered.....

1) How are you getting that sort of resolution without gearing and what sort of encoder wheel is it using?.

It is a mylar disc.  It is very durable.  The manufacturer claims you can nearly bend it in two and it will snap back in shape as long as you don't crease it.
There are actually 500 little lines on the disc, like having a 500 tooth wheel.

2) do you suffer from any backspin problems at such a high resolution??

Good question.  I have not had backspin problems affecting gameplay.  On any optical controller I have ever played with, on every interface I have tried I have been able to produce backspin in some way.  This spinner is no exception.  Since it is very free spinning and weighted you can easily spin it very fast and in some cases produce backspin.  This never happened during normal game play so far though.  ***there was one encoder combo/setup/sensitivity that I tried where I was unable to get backspin no matter how hard I tried.  More on that later, but testing so far points to backspin being a software issue and not related to either the spinners optic wheel/module or the encoder it was hooked up to.

OK now some observations...

That's a nice bit of design... Using an alloy tube is a very neat way to do it.

One thing to bear in mind is that the price needs to be looked at.... Both of the other two spinners on the market include an encoder for the same price that you want for this one. You might need to consider lowering the price a bit or throwing an encoder in with them.

Other than that... Nice work..

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I would love to lower the price or provide an encoder, but some things just cost what they cost.  I would literally have to give them away or pay you to take them.  I'm nice but...

[farmecologist]

If you could get variable resistance in there I think you would have a winner.   You really need the physical resistance for the Arkanoid games/clones.   


I agree with Minwah.   Don't worry about the 'spin forever'  characeristics.

[rackoon]

You are the MAME cocktail table master!

If you tell me to buy this spinner I will humbly buy it if you promise to sign it "Whamoed" (I'm serious).

Your cab inspired me to pick up this hobby. I must have a Whamoed spinner!

When people look at my half built oak cab, the drawings covering the walls and the $1000.00 worth of parts scatted around my spare bedroom they think I'm crazy. Then I just pull up your web page and say "Look what this guy did just imagine what else is possible."

                         Will you build any more cabs in the future?

All I got to say to all you possible spinner customers is if this guy builds his spinners like he built his cab, it will kick butt. Lets face it the dude is a perfectionist.

AND PLEASE PUT BLINKY LIGHTS ON IT. WE ALL LIKE BLINKY LIGHTS.

[juggle50]

Whammoed,

What about this.  It seems to me that last week the market for spinners was anemic and now it's flooded.  While your spinner looks excellently constructed, durable, and generally high in quality those atributes aren't neccessarilly unique as it seems to me that both GGG and SS have those atributes as well.

What is unique is the high res encoder wheel.  Now, I know absolutely nothing about spinner technology so keep that in mind when I say this.  Instead of making a spinner that fits a stock encoder, why not design a wheel that uses your high res technology that fits an exsisting spinner?

I think most people in this hobby have a spinner (particularly after this weekend) and they are kind of expensive.  Wouldn't it be cheeper for you and your machinist and everybody to design a wheel for exsisting spinners........Again I'm sure I'm talking out of ignorance but I just see the demand for that higher than having to buy a whole new spinner.

I'd still like to see a spinner off between you, SS and GGG.  Maybe OSCAR should test them out since he probably knows the most about spinners and is no longer in the buisness. 

[toasty]

what is your timetable for making these available to the public?

[SirPoonga]

If you could get variable resistance in there I think you would have a winner.   You really need the physical resistance for the Arkanoid games/clones.   

No you don't.  Arkanoid's resistance only came from the fact that it was geared.  What we need is a geared spinner
http://arcadeshop.com/pics/arkanoid-controller.jpg

[whammoed]

What is unique is the high res encoder wheel.  Now, I know absolutely nothing about spinner technology so keep that in mind when I say this.  Instead of making a spinner that fits a stock encoder, why not design a wheel that uses your high res technology that fits an exsisting spinner?

An encoder wheel at this resolution must be matched with the appropriate read module, so that would not be possible.

I'd still like to see a spinner off between you, SS and GGG.  Maybe OSCAR should test them out since he probably knows the most about spinners and is no longer in the buisness. 

If Oscar had time to test spinners, he would still be selling his own.  From my understanding the only reason he is not selling them is because he has been tied up with his real job.

[whammoed]

what is your timetable for making these available to the public?

Not quite sure.  I'm working on couple other things too, and am still getting quotes.  It takes a big investment to do a run of these without making the price totally outrageous. 

I am also listening to all the suggestions about being able to vary the resistance to mimmick the feel of the arkanoid gears.  That would be something all right.  I can think of a ton of ways to do this, quickly even, but it would require access to the body of the spinner under the panel.  Doing it on the fly is the tricky part.

[juggle50]

Gotcha Whammoed,

I knew I didn't know enough about the working of a spinner.  I guess I thought the reader was part of the encoder.  Anyway, nice work man and I may still purchase one in the future.

[whammoed]

Cool design, congratulations!!!

Neat how the wood base also moves around as you spin it (in the video) - j/k 

Seriously - what is the below panel depth?

Sorry, missed the question when I first read this.  The below panel depth is 2.5 inches not including the shaft.  How far the shaft extends depends on your panel thickness.  Of course if depth is a concern, the shaft can be cut to exactly the right length.

[Arcades R Fun]

Very nice design! There sure has been a flurry of new spinners on the market recently! The more the merrier!
But..... I'm still waiting for someone to come out with a nice spinner for say, like $49? Now that would be cool! 

[screaming]

Q: What kind of spinner is the Gyramite?  Is there resistance or is it real "spinny"?
A:  This spinner is free spinning.  Think Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going.  This does not enhance game play in any way, its just fun.

  Is there some way to make it NOT spin rediculously?  Was that a design goal or something just sorta happened?

-Steve.

[whammoed]

Q: What kind of spinner is the Gyramite?  Is there resistance or is it real "spinny"?
A:  This spinner is free spinning.  Think Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going.  This does not enhance game play in any way, its just fun.

  Is there some way to make it NOT spin rediculously?  Was that a design goal or something just sorta happened?

-Steve.

I do like that it can spin freely, but it is somewhat secondary to the design.  When I first started playing around with designs I experimented a bit with how long I could get the spin times for fun.  But in the end I needed things to track smooth for the optics which required two high quality bearings.  I prefer the feeling of a spinner with weight to it, hence the shaft weight.  You put these two things together and spinny is what you get without trying.

**You can reduce the spin times by placing pressure on the bearings before tightening the second set screw.  You won't be able to get the kind of resistance an arkanoid spinner had doing this, but you can get a *slightly* different feel for games like tempest.  I can likely come up with an easy way to increase the resistance for those that want a  dedicated spinner for games like arkanoid if there is a demand for it.  I'm still spinning ideas around in my head for changing resistance on the fly. 

[Zakk]

What about 2 versions?  Release one that is a normal spinner that will satisfy 99% of us, and then release the variable friction version for those people that just can't play arkanoid without it. 

I'd say a roller bearing on a set screw arrangement would increase tension without wearing out the shaft, although I suppose with time the shaft might fall out of true.

[whammoed]

What about 2 versions?  Release one that is a normal spinner that will satisfy 99% of us, and then release the variable friction version for those people that just can't play arkanoid without it. 

I'd say a roller bearing on a set screw arrangement would increase tension without wearing out the shaft, although I suppose with time the shaft might fall out of true.

Variable resistance will definitely be an add on feature.  It will surely increase the cost by some amount, and there will be those that just don't want it.

[farmecologist]

If you could get variable resistance in there I think you would have a winner.   You really need the physical resistance for the Arkanoid games/clones.  

No you don't.  Arkanoid's resistance only came from the fact that it was geared.  What we need is a geared spinner
http://arcadeshop.com/pics/arkanoid-controller.jpg

I know.  However, a physical resistance setting that would 'approximate' the geared feel ( if possible ) would be better than nothing..

[shmokes]

I hope the addon is expensive, because I want it to be controllable through software so the resistence is automatically applied when Arkanoid is loaded up.  If I have to get inside my CP to change resistence forget about it.  After the novelty wears off in a week I'll just leave it on one setting and it will stay there forever.

[quarterback]

I hope the addon is expensive, because I want it to be controllable through software so the resistence is automatically applied when Arkanoid is loaded up.  If I have to get inside my CP to change resistence forget about it.  After the novelty wears off in a week I'll just leave it on one setting and it will stay there forever.

If the resistance is due to physical pressure being put onto the spinner, it seems like it could be switchable from the top of your CP without a ton of difficulty.

[whammoed]

OK.  Here is the good news: 
The Gyramite works well with both the optiwiz and optipac.  (thanks to RandyT and help from tech support at the optical encoder manufacturer.)  I even gave it a go in Linux on the Z axis of the optiwiz.  On tempest at 9% sensitivity (which gave the 1 revolution per ~3 turns) I could produce no backspin no matter how hard I tried.  What does that mean?  Well, nothing important really, as the backspin that could be produced on the X axis didn't affect game play.  I just found it interesting.  Leads me to believe that backspin is a product of software interpretation and not a product of the spinner or interface, at least with the test subjects at hand.  In my opinion the optipac and the optiwiz are the two biggies as far as mouse input goes.  If I have the opportunity I will test other input devices.  Kudos to RandyT for the optiwiz.  Great design and its modular.  (wish it had an option for terminal blocks, but I see the reason for the design choice.)
Other test news.  At 100% sensitivity I achieved the correct movement ratio for arkanoid.  I was hoping this would be the case since the arkanoid spinner had an effective 486CPR and the Gyramite comes real close at 500CPR.  Of course there was no way of knowing till it was tried since this is emulation using mouse input.
Here is the Bad/Good? news:
I will be going back to the drawing board for a while on this product to investigate the feasibility of adjusting the resistance on the fly.  Yes, if I do it, it will have the ability to be software controlled.  I personally don't do any kind of manual switching to change controls so my preference is to create a spinner that follows that philosophy.

So, if you need a spinner in the next few months, please look into one of the other spinners available.  The Gyramite won't be ready for sale in the short term.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas.  Keep your eyes open, I will be announcing another new product hopefully within a couple weeks. 

[GGKoul]

Does it come with a Push/Pull option?

[whammoed]

Does it come with a Push/Pull option?

That is something I would look into later.  It is not something that will have to delay first run manufacture.  So, no, at least not at first.

[farmecologist]

Wow, thanks for putting all of the time and effort into researching this, whammoed!