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Author Topic: Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads  (Read 9598 times)

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Nyrine

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Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« on: January 15, 2003, 08:21:48 am »
Apart from the obvious ones of it makes the wiring simpler from the buttons / joysticks, are there any other serious advantages ?

I am about to start building a 4-player controller -- my initial thoughts were to hack-up 4 USB gamepads, wire them up to the buttons etc, then connect all 4 gamepads to a USB hub inside the controller box.

This would give me a box with a USB cable that could be connected to the MAME PC easily, if I decide at some point in the future to build a new controller with a different layout, then it can be swapped easily.

How many games (and which ones) am I likely to find not working with a gamepad ?

BASSOFeeSH

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2003, 09:03:04 am »
The I-Pac is a USB interface as well, so I'm not sure how the price comparison works out compared to 4 gamepads & a hub.

Also, most anything you might want to run will support a keyboard but how about joypads?

eightbit

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2003, 09:54:44 am »
Apart from the obvious ones of it makes the wiring simpler from the buttons / joysticks, are there any other serious advantages ?

I am about to start building a 4-player controller -- my initial thoughts were to hack-up 4 USB gamepads, wire them up to the buttons etc, then connect all 4 gamepads to a USB hub inside the controller box.

This would give me a box with a USB cable that could be connected to the MAME PC easily, if I decide at some point in the future to build a new controller with a different layout, then it can be swapped easily.
What is 4 USB pads going to cost?  An Ipac is $39 the soon to be announced Key Whiz will be even cheaper than that.

I just did a sidewinder hack, see my page here- mame.hower.us\rallyx. I wrecked the first game pad and had my brother solder the secound. I was only building a 1 player control panel.  I did not use the USB version as the were 4 times as much money.

A joypad will limit what you can do. Every emulator that I know of and most games will accept keyboard input. Keyboard encoders are reprogrammable even if the emulator isn't. Joysticks aren't always programable though the sidewinder should be most of the time. I'm running mine under WinXP and found out after installing it that I can't program the buttons to keystrokes. The sidewinder driver for the gameport version doesn't work under XP. I heard the USB pad driver does work for XP though.

Most people use a quick connect plug between the interface and the controls if they want to be able to swap control panels. This way you don't have to buy an expensive interface for each set of controls. I used a printer extension cable when I did my secound Ipac.

In summary evaluate the costs, check for drivers, research the inputs that the games you want to play require and then go buy a keyboard encoder.  :)
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2003, 10:37:07 am »
this topic has never come up before, glad you asked! (I'm beginning to sound like HC)

I'd recommend getting the ipac (the 4player version is a lil bit more than 39 8bit quote ->plus intl shipping) but its a great value, because it saves you time and energy.  8bit also rightly points out that there isn't an emu that *doesnt* except keyboard input, whereas some emu's don't suppport all joypads (or support them well)

If you already had 4 usb gamepads, and a hub, and you liked soldering (or were proficient at it) there's no reason you could shlop together a reasonable and working system going that route.  But if you are going to buy the pads (unless they are super cheap) then most likely for the average newbie you are better off with a keyboard encoder.

The other situation where a usb gamepad would be superior to an ipac would be if you were going to make a multi-system interface where it would interface with both a PC and a console system (DC, PSX, etc) - but that's a whole different story / topic.

It basically boils down to how much you enjoy soldering and what your time/energy is worth to you.  I like soldering and comfortable with it and was broke so a sidewinder hack was fine for me... eventually I'll want to shlop an ipac in just to neaten up the wiring, make it easier to maintain...

Know what I mean vern?

good luck,

Rampy

PS 8bit, what is the keywhiz you speak of? I know not of it...

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2003, 11:20:23 am »
I'm building 3 "old school" cocktail cabinets (one 4-way stick and two "action" buttons).  I'm going to use a Sidewinder hack for each.  But, for a 4-player control panel, I'd definately use an ipac (in fact, anything more than a 1-player I would use an ipac).  

And, no I'm not greedy, I'm giving 1 cocktail cab to each of my brothers.

eightbit

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2003, 12:11:37 pm »
I'd recommend getting the ipac (the 4player version is a lil bit more than 39 8bit quote ->plus intl shipping)
Ooops the 4 player Ipac is $65 plus $12 shipping. Still cheaper than USB sidewinders which are $19.95 * 4 + $7 shipping = $86.80. Rampy is also right about the console compatibility thing but then you probably wouldn't hack sidewinders and you would have the additional cost of adapters. Thats a whole different discussion.
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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2003, 01:00:59 pm »
I think no matter what you compare the ipac or any other encoder to it comes down to a couple things on which one is better. If you have the keyboard, joystick or mouse already that you are planning on hacking and you are willing to spend the time to hack it and deal with any playability problems then go ahead and hack it you aren't out anything. If you want something to put in there and have it work without a problem and you are gonna buy something anyways I'd always go with an encoder.

Wade

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2003, 01:13:52 pm »
I have a few questions related to this.

Is there any sort of limit on how many "keys" can be hit simultaneously with an i-pac?  I remember when playing Quake with a keyboard one machine/keyboard gave problems because it could only handle so many keys at a time.  This is pre-USB.

Are there ANY playability drawbacks to using an i-pac?  Or is it only a question of cost (vs. $3 sidewinders)?

I don't have any controls yet and I wonder if 2 sidewinders can be used on a game port with Dos mame or windows mame?  Does dos mame support two or more sidewinders at a time directory or is the joy2key thing needed?

Sorry, I'm sure a lot of these are already answered but it's hard to put all the pieces together.

Thanks,
Wade

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2003, 01:27:05 pm »
I have a few questions related to this.

Are there ANY playability drawbacks to using an i-pac?  Or is it only a question of cost (vs. $3 sidewinders)?

I don't have any controls yet and I wonder if 2 sidewinders can be used on a game port with Dos mame or windows mame?  Does dos mame support two or more sidewinders at a time directory or is the joy2key thing needed?


Hey wade,
I don't have an ipac but my understanding is that there is no ghosting/blocking because of its design.  Regular phsycial Keyboards do have limitations (usb or otherwise) on number of simultaneous keystrokes (its a bit more complicated than that but suffice to say lets leave it at that...)  The ipac is designed not to have that issue.

it's generally a factor of cost, geekness, and availability of hackable stuff handy...

I use two gameport sidewinders and mame supports them both natively (dos mame does: the swith is like  -joy sidewinder or something) and when drivers are loaded (or autodetected in winxp) mame 32 picks it up fine (i.e. you only need joy2key for games that can't remap their controls to your layout)

Hope that helps,

rampy


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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2003, 01:47:08 pm »
you only need joy2key for games that can't remap their controls to your layout
Is there a dos version of joy2key? I know there is a windows and linux version of it.
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

rampy

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2003, 02:21:38 pm »
you only need joy2key for games that can't remap their controls to your layout
Is there a dos version of joy2key? I know there is a windows and linux version of it.

I *thought* so...  but i'm clearly confused.. and can't find the link anymore... maybe it was joytokey or joytwokey ? *shrug*

rampy

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2003, 03:16:58 pm »
Thanks, good to know about the i-pac never having the too-many-keys pressed limit.  I thought that is what was described on the i-pac web page but its not uncommon for a seller to not mention the disadvantages of his product. :)

Sounds like an i-pac is the way to go!

Wade

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2003, 03:24:42 pm »
i've not heard anything bad about the i-pac... i have an i-pac4 in the mail right now, ordered it this weekend..

as far as false advertising.. i've not noticed much among the MAME related vendors/sellers.. (bob roberts, ultimarc, tombstone).. it seems pretty good..

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2003, 03:33:23 pm »
1. IPAC is very simple to setup
2. the special SHIFT function is very useful. You can't do that with gamepads
3. Not as many emulators are going to support joysticks/gamepads as you might think...

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2003, 03:55:17 pm »
the soon to be announced Key Whiz will be even cheaper than that.

What's a Key Whiz?

(Rampy wants to know too.)
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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2003, 05:10:03 pm »
if you're going for a 4 player panel... I think it'll make more sense to just get an IPAC4...  no hassle....

4 usb gamepad maybe a bit cheaper just in cost... but then you'll need to hack... (which means you have a chance to mess it up... which will cost more...) soldering... wires... this... that.... all those hidden costs....

my vote is for IPAC4 if you're doing 4 players..

Another Brilliant mind ruined by education....  :p

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2003, 05:11:06 pm »
I was thinking about doing the same thing (using 4 gamepads) but what finally sold me on the ipacs is that it give me the option of including buttons that the gamepads can't.  Buttons like enter, esc, function buttons.  Also, The frontends I'm using need keyboard input to select and start games.  

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2003, 06:09:23 pm »
1. IPAC is very simple to setup
2. the special SHIFT function is very useful. You can't do that with gamepads
3. Not as many emulators are going to support joysticks/gamepads as you might think...
Buttons like enter, esc, function buttons.  Also, The frontends I'm using need keyboard input to select and start games.  

Mame32 can do shifted functions inside the game. Its actually far more powerfull because you can do any key combination, you don't have to specify a specific shift button. You can also do more key combinations than just 2 buttons.

Mame32 also allows useing the joypad to navigate the list and start the game.

The only function I can't do from my control panel with my joypads is to shut down the PC. I have an arcade button on top of the cab wired to the PC power button.

Everybody seems to put down mame32 as a front end and that its for newbies but I like it and haven't found a FE that I like better.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2003, 06:16:58 pm by eightbit »
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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2003, 12:18:54 am »
We all seek knowledge of the "Key Whiz".   :-X

BobA

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2003, 12:44:09 am »
We all seek knowledge of the "Key Whiz".   :-X

BobA

Follow your nose, chap.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=viewprofile;user=RandyT

A little Scooby-Doo super sleuthing...   ;D





(Okay, the avatar tipped it off!)

BobA

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2003, 12:53:16 am »
Thanks for the heads up.     Hope it comes to pass sooner then the microcade.    ::)

BobA

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2003, 08:31:36 am »
Thanks for the heads up.     Hope it comes to pass sooner then the microcade.    ::)

BobA

Hey, them's fightin' words! :)


Ok, I deserve that one.  I had to make money with that machine somehow and I had an opportunity to put it to work on other projects.  So the Microcade lost it's focus.  The KeyWiz, being an important part of that kind of project will help bring it back.


This one is just about done.  Just a little more work to do on the software and some reporting from the beta testers and it will be ready for sale.  The web page is also kicking my butt at the same time, but I haven't had to sleep much in the last couple of months so I have the time  ;D


I'll be making an "official" announcement when it's ready.

RandyT
« Last Edit: January 16, 2003, 12:26:20 pm by RandyT »

BobA

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2003, 10:54:36 am »
No offense intended  ;)  

We all know how plans can change.  Looking forward to your new product announcement.

Good Luck

BobA

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2003, 09:53:11 pm »
<snip>
This one is just about done.  Just a little more work to do on the software and some reporting from the beta testers and it will be ready for sale.  The web page is also kicking my butt at the same time, but I haven't had to sleep much in the last couple of months so I have the time  ;D


I'll be making an "official" announcement when it's ready.

RandyT

is there any possibility it'll end up with the 3 keyboard LEDs support?

(wishful hoping I guess...but I thought I should at least ask before blowing my cash elsewhere..  :( )

ttfn,
Pull a year and a half strike- it's over 4eva..
besides, WHL rocks!

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2003, 10:36:23 pm »
<snip>
This one is just about done.  Just a little more work to do on the software and some reporting from the beta testers and it will be ready for sale.  The web page is also kicking my butt at the same time, but I haven't had to sleep much in the last couple of months so I have the time  ;D


I'll be making an "official" announcement when it's ready.

RandyT

is there any possibility it'll end up with the 3 keyboard LEDs support?

(wishful hoping I guess...but I thought I should at least ask before blowing my cash elsewhere..  :( )

ttfn,


eightbit ran this poll to find out if people wanted LEDS. He put the pull up after we were discussion with RandyT if it should go into the keywiz, take a guess due to the results.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4512

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2003, 11:36:00 pm »
eightbit ran this poll to find out if people wanted LEDS. He put the pull up after we were discussion with RandyT if it should go into the keywiz, take a guess due to the results.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4512

BLASPHEMERS!!

How can we emulate the true arcade experience without flashing atari cone shaped start buttons when we pop a quarter in to feed our beasts?!?

Hmm.. a poll with 11 votes gets us an accuracy of +/- 98% 19 times out of 20, right? :)

seriously tho', I wonder how many lines of code, and how many cents worth of connector it would've added to the cost of these units? I'm thinking units of these http://www.asia.globalsources.com/gsol/GeneralManager?&catalog_id=2000000003862&design=clean&language=en&page=ProductDetail&product_id=8823716835&action=GetProduct&action=GetPoint&point_id=3000000157655

would've been 5 cents a pop in quantity ( 4 pins, a ground and three hot wires...it's perfect!) and I'm guessing production costs would've gone up a whole quarter per keywhiz.

ahh well,  I want blinky player start lights, I gotta pay $30 more I guess eh?



Pull a year and a half strike- it's over 4eva..
besides, WHL rocks!

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2003, 01:08:01 am »

seriously tho', I wonder how many lines of code, and how many cents worth of connector it would've added to the cost of these units? I'm thinking units of these http://www.asia.globalsources.com/gsol/GeneralManager?&catalog_id=2000000003862&design=clean&language=en&page=ProductDetail&product_id=8823716835&action=GetProduct&action=GetPoint&point_id=3000000157655

would've been 5 cents a pop in quantity ( 4 pins, a ground and three hot wires...it's perfect!) and I'm guessing production costs would've gone up a whole quarter per keywhiz.

ahh well,  I want blinky player start lights, I gotta pay $30 more I guess eh?


Ummm..... those connectors are USB connectors.  I don't even want to think of the support ramifications if I put one of those on the board for LED connections :).  And in 1000 quantities, you are still looking at .60 each, before shipping costs and labor.  But that's not the reason we won't be supporting LED's on the KeyWiz.

As for paying $30 more....add on another $15 for the harness.  I understand that low-current LEDs are required due to the low power output of the microcontroller in question (12ma typical).  Means no ultra bright LEDs can be used. :(  Overloading the CPU can cause erratic performance, or worse, damage to the input.


Quote
How can we emulate the true arcade experience without flashing atari cone shaped start buttons when we pop a quarter in to feed our beasts?!?


Well, that's going to be tough for a couple reasons.  In the "true arcade experience" the player select buttons don't flash when you hit one of your control buttons, like they will when using the solution you suggested.  And the volcano buttons are hard to come by as they've been out of production for a number of years.  The $15 harness I mentioned earlier uses cone shaped bezels for the LEDs, but are not switches like you are looking for.

When I designed KeyWiz, I had a philosophy that governed everything I did.  It all revolved around quality of construction, performance, making all 32 I/O pins dedicated to input handling, and finally cost.

The KeyWiz is very aware of the states of the keyboard LEDs and it would be a simple firmware modification to allow it's processor to control LEDS (but even simple modifications use CPU cycles).  The hardware is already there.  But in order to do this right and not have the problems mentioned above, the LEDs would require 3 dedicated lines of the CPU.  That means there wouldbe 3 less inputs for your controls, which goes against the design philosophy of the KeyWiz.  After all, how many encoders even near the price range of the KeyWiz can handle a control panel with 4 sticks and 4 buttons per?

I won't go into detail, but LED's will be handled in a much better way in a future product that will also add another capability to your control panel and won't obsolete the KeyWiz.  ;D

Best of luck in your project,
RandyT

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2003, 01:39:43 am »
<snipped good points>
I won't go into detail, but LED's will be handled in a much better way in a future product that
 will also add another capability to your control panel and won't obsolete the KeyWiz.  ;D

Best of luck in your project,
RandyT

okay, all your points are valid and understood... thank you for explaining things in such a way as
to be easily understood by someone not so well versed in electronic /coding experience

and given that you bothered to reply here to my venting leads me to believe that your support may
rival what i've heard of Ultimarc's..:)

That last line of your reply intrigues me - are you saying that if I buy a keywhiz now, I will be able to
pick up a  daughterboard (or standalone card) 6 months down the road that'll drive my LEDs? (and maybe
 my optical devices? ;) )


Pull a year and a half strike- it's over 4eva..
besides, WHL rocks!

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2003, 01:49:09 am »

6 months is an awfully long time. :)

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2003, 02:41:28 am »

6 months is an awfully long time. :)

<razzin-frazzin..>"stupid darn cart button..."
<mumble-grumble..> "Next time I press it it'll work and
                                   My Max will be added to the shopping cart..."
<frickin-frackin..> "aww...C'mon, It said 'soon'.. :( "

I have money to send to you....I'll even take a beta! :)

<best of luck with your product launch..:->
Pull a year and a half strike- it's over 4eva..
besides, WHL rocks!

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2003, 07:35:50 am »
RandyT, no offense, and nothing against the KeyWhiz, but I thought I should clarify some errors I found in your response.

BTW, for those who don't know, the "other product" is the I-PAC from www.ultimarc.com.

As for paying $30 more....add on another $15 for the harness.
Or you could make your own harness and use the Mouser LED's that OSCAR recommended in another thread.  Still you need to add an additional $8 for the LED's, but this is kinda a moot point since the LED's would be additional to the KeyWhiz cost, if the KeyWhiz supported them.  
Quote
In the "true arcade experience" the player select buttons don't flash when you hit one of your control buttons, like they will when using the solution you suggested.
This only happens with Buttons 7 and 8, when using the bi-directional inputs.  Buttons 7 and 8 aren't used by any MAME games and if you use the above-mentioned harness and the LED header on the I-PAC, then the LED's won't flash even if you press buttons 7 and 8.
Quote
 And the volcano buttons are hard to come by as they've been out of production for a number of years.  The $15 harness I mentioned earlier uses cone shaped bezels for the LEDs, but are not switches like you are looking for.
Hard to come by, but still available from time to time on E-bay.  And having the cone-shaped bezel LED's above normal P1 and P2 start buttons does a reasonable job of recreating the arcade nostalgia, IMHO.

No offense to the KeyWhiz, but I wanted to clarify your arguments.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2003, 07:39:36 am by Tiger-Heli »
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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2003, 08:34:39 am »
RandyT, no offense, and nothing against the KeyWhiz, but I thought I should clarify some errors I found in your response.

No offense taken, Tiger, but what I posted weren't errors.  I'll explain.

Quote
Or you could make your own harness and use the Mouser LED's that OSCAR recommended in another thread.  Still you need to add an additional $8 for the LED's, but this is kinda a moot point since the LED's would be additional to the KeyWhiz cost, if the KeyWhiz supported them.  

Entirely true, but don't forget the time effort and skill required to attach the connector or solder the wires directly to the board, etc..   I was merely trying to put across the dollar value of a couple of blinky LEDs.  Nothing more.  

Quote
This only happens with Buttons 7 and 8, when using the bi-directional inputs.  Buttons 7 and 8 aren't used by any MAME games and if you use the above-mentioned harness and the LED header on the I-PAC, then the LED's won't flash even if you press buttons 7 and 8.

In the interest of clarification, this is taken directly from the web site:

LEDs: The three LEDs use the following inputs, which become bdirectional:
Player 1 Button 7
Player 2 button 7
Player 1 button 8
These inputs can still be used for buttons even if LEDs are connected but note that when the buttons are pressed the LEDs will light. You can wire your own LEDs to these connections.


If you read the above carefully, you will find that your correction isn't correct :)


Quote
Re: Volcano Buttons
Hard to come by, but still available from time to time on E-bay.  And having the cone-shaped bezel LED's above normal P1 and P2 start buttons does a reasonable job of recreating the arcade nostalgia, IMHO.
No offense to the KeyWhiz, but I wanted to clarify your arguments.

Again, none taken.  The poster I was responding to mentioned that he wanted a very specific item and I passed on what information I had regarding his needs.  Waiting for that item to come up on Ebay and paying whatever the going premium is for those items meets my description of hard to come by as well.  And I will certainly agree that if someone wants LEDs on their control panel, any solution is a good one, it's just not what the poster was talking about.

There was also some recent discussion about using illuminated pushbuttons as LED indicators.  In that application, I would think the ultra-brites would be the best choice.  Anyone thinking about going that route might want to make sure the solution they choose will handle those down the road.

Please don't take anything I say as a critisicm of anothers product.  There are advantages and disadvantages with everything and good consumer would want to know what those are and select the one that suits their needs.  I'm just trying to point out a few things (as always) that not everyone considers or has knowledge of. :)

RandyT

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2003, 09:31:25 am »
Entirely true, but don't forget the time effort and skill required to attach the connector or solder the wires directly to the board, etc..   I was merely trying to put across the dollar value of a couple of blinky LEDs.  Nothing more.  
Fair enough.
Quote
In the interest of clarification, this is taken directly from the web site:

LEDs: The three LEDs use the following inputs, which become bdirectional:
Player 1 Button 7
Player 2 button 7
Player 1 button 8
These inputs can still be used for buttons even if LEDs are connected but note that when the buttons are pressed the LEDs will light. You can wire your own LEDs to these connections.


If you read the above carefully, you will find that your correction isn't correct :)
That section of the website is talking about hooking the LED's to the bi-directional inputs, not to the LED harness.  I am pretty sure (from previous E-mails to Andy) that the LED's do NOT flash with button presses if you are using the LED header on the I-PAC.  However, I don't have an I-PAC (yet) and I would be using the bi-directional inputs anyway, so I can't confirm.  Hopefully someone else on this board can.

Quote
Waiting for that item to come up on Ebay and paying whatever the going premium is for those items meets my description of hard to come by as well.  And I will certainly agree that if someone wants LEDs on their control panel, any solution is a good one, it's just not what the poster was talking about.
Agreed.
Quote
There was also some recent discussion about using illuminated pushbuttons as LED indicators.  In that application, I would think the ultra-brites would be the best choice.  Anyone thinking about going that route might want to make sure the solution they choose will handle those down the road.
I didn't mention it in my previous post, but I think you are also correct about the I-PAC not being able to handle super-bright LED's.

Just so you know how I personally see things, I like the KeyWhiz, except for the above mentioned lack of LED support, which I understand you have a workaround for
 :) , lack of USB support (for a desktop computer, it's handy to be able to quickly connect and disconnect the controller) and one other feature which the I-PAC has and the KeyWhiz lacks:

The I-PAC can load an alternate key definition file from a batch file.  I understand the KeyWhiz supports alternate character sets, but you have to use the "shazam" key to load them.

If KeyWhiz could load alternate character sets from a batch file, I would definitely be interested.

NOTE:  For most people this wouldn't matter.  In fact I may work around it anyway.  The problem is that I am building a desktop controller, and there may be times that I want to use the keyboard instead of dragging out the controller, so I wanted the default keys not to change.  For 90% of users, this wouldn't matter.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2003, 09:33:10 am by Tiger-Heli »
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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2003, 03:01:02 pm »
....one other feature which the I-PAC has and the KeyWhiz lacks:

The I-PAC can load an alternate key definition file from a batch file.  I understand the KeyWhiz supports alternate character sets, but you have to use the "shazam" key to load them.

If KeyWhiz could load alternate character sets from a batch file, I would definitely be interested.

Not sure where you heard this one, but I assure you that this is not the case.  :)

The Shazaaam! Key offers a fast and simple way to switch between code sets, but you don't need it to switch.  If you have a custom set that you want to be active after programming, the software has a setting that lets you do that.  Rest assured that command line programming is available in the software.  I have some plans for added functionality as well, but I don't want to talk about that until I make sure it will work :)

I will address the LED question later this evening.  It's a long technical explanation as to why things do what they do and unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment :)

RandyT

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2003, 03:32:51 pm »
NOTE:  For most people this wouldn't matter.  In fact I may work around it anyway.  The problem is that I am building a desktop controller, and there may be times that I want to use the keyboard instead of dragging out the controller, so I wanted the default keys not to change.  For 90% of users, this wouldn't matter.
Get a USB keyboard or a ps/2 to USB keyboard adapter for about $4 and leave them both plugged in. I don't see the reason for you to change the defaults, especially if you don't want to.

The keywiz is as programable as the Ipac and has the additional bonus of jumping from the custom config to the pre-programmed default without reprogramming it or moving a jumper.
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2003, 10:27:18 pm »
I will address the LED question later this evening.  It's a long technical explanation as to why things do what they do and unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment :)
RandyT

Ok, as promised, here's an explanation why LED's shared with an input *must* light when the shared input's button is pressed.

But first you have to understand how the data lines on this particular microcontroller can be configured.  Each port (8 data lines) can be configured as either:

Input: this enables internal pull-up resistors which leaves all pins on the port at around +5v when not affected by external components.  When you hook up a button switch to a data line of the port in this state and the other terminal to ground, pressing the switch will complete the path of ground to the data line and drag that line down to close to 0v.  The reason this doesn't create a dead short and damage something is that fact that the internal components keep this from happening.  When the voltage on the data line goes below a certain threshold, the CPU will sense the change and can act upon it.

Output: In this state, the data lines are at close to 0v.  When the microcontroller decides, based on logic in the firmware, that it needs to send a signal to an external device, it can raise this voltage up to about +5v.  When the anode of an LED is connected to a data line in this state and the cathode is connected to ground (usually through a resistor), the CPU can raise the voltage level of the line and the LED will light.

Open-Drain or tri-state output w/high impedance input (or bi-directional): The cpu can be used as a high-impedance input or current sink.  This is the method used to share an input with an LED.  There is greater resistance on the port when configured in this manner, and therefore the threshold to trigger an input is lower.  But as the buttons are connected straight to ground, bringing the line below this threshold is not a problem.

Now, the anodes of the shared LEDs are connected to +5v and the cathodes are connected to the data lines of the open-drain configured port.  The data lines of the port are told to stay in high-impedance mode by default which keeps current from flowing through the LED to light it.  
 
Here's where it gets a little weird.  LEDs, like any diode, need about .6v of forward voltage to cause the current to flow through it, making the diode light.  Once the voltage drops below this level, the diode will go dark.  If the threshold of the high-impedance input is below .6v, the LED can be off, while still not triggering the input.  Exactly how this is accomplished in the situation in question is not important for the purposes of this explanation.

What is important, and the answer to why the LEDs *must* light when the shared button is pressed, is contained in the explanation above and will be outlined below.

We know that:

A: The anodes of the LEDs are all connected to a common +5v source.

B: The cathodes of the LEDs are connected to individual input lines which are also connected to buttons.

C: The buttons also have one terminal connected directly to ground.

D: Since the anodes of the LEDs are connected to +5v, connecting the cathodes to ground will cause them to light.

E: Pressing the button, completes the circuit connecting both the data line and the cathode of the LED to ground.

Therefore, regardless of anything else in the circuit, bringing the input close enough to ground to signal to the CPU that a button has been pressed, will have no other option than to also illuminate the LED.

If anyone finds any flaws in the above, please let me know.  Maybe there's something I'm missing. :)

RandyT

« Last Edit: January 28, 2003, 11:02:15 pm by RandyT »

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2003, 11:17:12 pm »
That section of the website is talking about hooking the LED's to the bi-directional inputs, not to the LED harness.  I am pretty sure (from previous E-mails to Andy) that the LED's do NOT flash with button presses if you are using the LED header on the I-PAC.  However, I don't have an I-PAC (yet) and I would be using the bi-directional inputs anyway, so I can't confirm.  Hopefully someone else on this board can.

On the I-PAC, when connecting LED's to the pin header location (not using the bi-directional inputs) the LED's do not flash when the corresponding player buttons is pressed.  In other words, Num Lock doesn't flash when P1B7 is pressed.  


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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2003, 11:33:44 pm »
why do the leds have to be connected to a common +5 (or shared with a button input?) ?

 why can't they be connected to a common ground and the routine only pulses the +5 to the p1/p2 leds when coin 1 or 2 is triggered, and only pulse +5 until p1 start or p2 start is triggered?

the  cpu is not expecting to sense input from p1/p2start (therefore is not wasting cycles deciding whether or not to pulse the leds) until after coins are triggered...  the key whiz has to sense for coins at all times anyways (whether by coin switch, or by coin button), why not make it go into the pulse subroutine when it does sense them? (and exit pulse subroutine when the starts are triggered)

you loose 2 buttons (for p1/p2 start leds ) with this setup, right? (Cause the coin buttons are already part of the setup in a mame config..)

btw, how much is the max going to be (approx)? and how many days before
 I can click the cart button on the website and it takes my Visa Number? :) )
Pull a year and a half strike- it's over 4eva..
besides, WHL rocks!

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2003, 11:49:09 pm »
That section of the website is talking about hooking the LED's to the bi-directional inputs, not to the LED harness.  I am pretty sure (from previous E-mails to Andy) that the LED's do NOT flash with button presses if you are using the LED header on the I-PAC.  However, I don't have an I-PAC (yet) and I would be using the bi-directional inputs anyway, so I can't confirm.  Hopefully someone else on this board can.

On the I-PAC, when connecting LED's to the pin header location (not using the bi-directional inputs) the LED's do not flash when the corresponding player buttons is pressed.  In other words, Num Lock doesn't flash when P1B7 is pressed.  

You guys are going to make me buy one of these aren't you :)

see this post:
http://www.ultimarc.com/messages/1599.html

From what I see and according to the documentation, there is only one place to hook the LEDs and that is the 10-pin port.  Where is the other one that keeps being mentioned?

RandyT

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2003, 12:05:41 am »
You guys are going to make me buy one of these aren't you :)

see this post:
http://www.ultimarc.com/messages/1599.html

From what I see and according to the documentation, there is only one place to hook the LEDs and that is the 10-pin port.  Where is the other one that keeps being mentioned?

Nope, there are two places.  It's the button inputs that are bi-directional, not the pin header.  I've only had LED's connected to the pin header, and they definitely do not flash when the bi-directional player buttons are pressed.  Now when connecting LED's to the bi-directional button inputs, that is a totally different story...

See this thread:  http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4371.


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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2003, 12:07:11 am »
why do the leds have to be connected to a common +5 (or shared with a button input?) ?

 why can't they be connected to a common ground and the routine only pulses the +5 to the p1/p2 leds when coin 1 or 2 is triggered, and only pulse +5 until p1 start or p2 start is triggered?

the  cpu is not expecting to sense input from p1/p2start (therefore is not wasting cycles deciding whether or not to pulse the leds) until after coins are triggered...  the key whiz has to sense for coins at all times anyways (whether by coin switch, or by coin button), why not make it go into the pulse subroutine when it does sense them? (and exit pulse subroutine when the starts are triggered)

you loose 2 buttons (for p1/p2 start leds ) with this setup, right? (Cause the coin buttons are already part of the setup in a mame config..)

You are on the right track.  My reason for not doing this is because it would essentially make the KeyWiz a MAME specific device.  There are also other cool things that can be done along those lines, but are better served by something dedicated.

Quote
btw, how much is the max going to be (approx)? and how many days before
 I can click the cart button on the website and it takes my Visa Number? :) )

Check your messages!

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2003, 12:35:32 am »
You guys are going to make me buy one of these aren't you :)

see this post:
http://www.ultimarc.com/messages/1599.html

From what I see and according to the documentation, there is only one place to hook the LEDs and that is the 10-pin port.  Where is the other one that keeps being mentioned?

Nope, there are two places.  It's the button inputs that are bi-directional, not the pin header.  I've only had LED's connected to the pin header, and they definitely do not flash when the bi-directional player buttons are pressed.  Now when connecting LED's to the bi-directional button inputs, that is a totally different story...

See this thread:  http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4371.


Okay, I just verified it.  On the I-PAC, I connected one LED to the P1B7 bi-directional button input (P1 Start), and one to the Caps Lock (P2 Start) on the 10-pin header.  The LED connected to the bi-directional button input flashes when the corresponding button is pressed, and the LED connected to the 10-pin header is not affected when its corresponding button is pressed.  This all jives with the info on Andy's site.

The thread you linked referred to LED's connected the bi-directionals, not the 10-pin header.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2003, 12:46:53 am by OSCAR »

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2003, 01:03:41 am »
You guys are going to make me buy one of these aren't you :)

see this post:
http://www.ultimarc.com/messages/1599.html

From what I see and according to the documentation, there is only one place to hook the LEDs and that is the 10-pin port.  Where is the other one that keeps being mentioned?

Nope, there are two places.  It's the button inputs that are bi-directional, not the pin header.  I've only had LED's connected to the pin header, and they definitely do not flash when the bi-directional player buttons are pressed.  Now when connecting LED's to the bi-directional button inputs, that is a totally different story...

See this thread:  http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4371.


Okay, I just verified it.  On the I-PAC, I connected one LED to the P1B7 bi-directional button input (P1 Start), and one to the Caps Lock (P2 Start) on the 10-pin header.  The LED connected to the bi-directional button input flashes when the corresponding button is pressed, and the LED connected to the 10-pin header is not affected when its corresponding button is pressed.  This all jives with the info on Andy's site.

The thread you linked referred to LED's connected the bi-directionals, not the 10-pin header.


Oscar, thanks for going to the trouble.

I can't argue with you because I don't actually have one of these in front of me as you obviously do.

I can only say that I am intrigued as heck about how this is being pulled off.  Purely from an academic standpoint, as I have no intentions of implementing this on the KeyWiz.  :)

Someone was just kind enough to send me a very high-res photo of the bottom of the I-PAC.  The pins on the 10-pin header that you say are different are very clearly connected to the terminal block inputs with no other circuitry connected in-between or elsewhere, as is the +5v line.  Electrically, they are absolutely identical.

If what you say is accurate, kudos to AW!  He must have some tricks up his sleeve that I haven't seen before :)

RandyT


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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2003, 06:41:37 am »
....one other feature which the I-PAC has and the KeyWhiz lacks:

The I-PAC can load an alternate key definition file from a batch file.  I understand the KeyWhiz supports alternate character sets, but you have to use the "shazam" key to load them.

If KeyWhiz could load alternate character sets from a batch file, I would definitely be interested.

Not sure where you heard this one, but I assure you that this is not the case.  :)

The Shazaaam! Key offers a fast and simple way to switch between code sets, but you don't need it to switch.  If you have a custom set that you want to be active after programming, the software has a setting that lets you do that.  Rest assured that command line programming is available in the software.  I have some plans for added functionality as well, but I don't want to talk about that until I make sure it will work :)


Actually, I just ASS-umed this from your website as you mention switching code sets with the Shazaam key, but don't mention switching code sets from the command line or batch file.  You might want to make mention of this feature on your page.

Three new questions:

First, will the KeyWhiz work as a USB device using a PS/2-USB adapter?

Second, Eightbit said that the KeyWhiz can switch codesets without reprogramming the chip.  This would speed the process up.  Is this a true statement.

Finally, like other posters, I would like to know when the product will be officially available, what pricing is for the standard and max version (I assume $26.95 is for the ECO versions) and pricing and EDA of the LED driver option.

Thanks
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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2003, 08:23:44 am »
Actually, I just ASS-umed this from your website as you mention switching code sets with the Shazaam key, but don't mention switching code sets from the command line or batch file.  You might want to make mention of this feature on your page.

Actually, this is from the page...

- Full-featured Custom Codeset Management Software.  Completely mouse/trackball driven.  One-click selection of any of 15 user definable codesets (32 normal and 24 Shazaaam! codes per).  Codeset to be active after programming is user-selectable.  Command line options for autoprogramming / batch file operation.

but there is a lot of stuff on there so I understand how easy it is to miss.  I'll add it to the FAQ

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Three new questions:

First, will the KeyWhiz work as a USB device using a PS/2-USB adapter?


Which one?  A straight cable?  Then no.  An active converter?  Yes, but it would cripple the performance.  The FAQ for details talks about this somewhat, but that question will be added to address it more completely.

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Second, Eightbit said that the KeyWhiz can switch codesets without reprogramming the chip.  This would speed the process up.  Is this a true statement.

Yes, but this requires the use of the Shazaaam! Key.

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Finally, like other posters, I would like to know when the product will be officially available, what pricing is for the standard and max version (I assume $26.95 is for the ECO versions) and pricing and EDA of the LED driver option.

The LED option is in the development stage.  It is currently too early to be talking about dates for this product, but I will estimate 45 to 60 days before it could be a polished product like the KeyWiz.

As for the KeyWiz, that all depends on whether you think it's prudent to release the hardware before the software is finalized.  I have the software functionally tested on 98SE and Win2K.  It hasn't been tried yet on XP, but should work.  This of course is only an issue if you want to program the unit.

In my mind, and barring any unforseen problems with the web store, less than 1 week until it goes live.  We also need to build stock so people won't be waiting after their orders are placed.

Prices will be as follows:

KeyWiz Eco: $26.95
KeyWiz Standard: $33.95
KeyWiz Max: $36.95
Priority Mail (2-3 day) shipping anywhere in the US: $6.50

RandyT

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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2003, 10:22:14 am »
Oscar, thanks for going to the trouble.

I can't argue with you because I don't actually have one of these in front of me as you obviously do.

I can only say that I am intrigued as heck about how this is being pulled off.  Purely from an academic standpoint, as I have no intentions of implementing this on the KeyWiz.  :)

Someone was just kind enough to send me a very high-res photo of the bottom of the I-PAC.  The pins on the 10-pin header that you say are different are very clearly connected to the terminal block inputs with no other circuitry connected in-between or elsewhere, as is the +5v line.  Electrically, they are absolutely identical.

If what you say is accurate, kudos to AW!  He must have some tricks up his sleeve that I haven't seen before :)

RandyT


LOL!  Now you are seriously making me second-guess myself!  :)

I was pretty tired last night when I slapped it together, and I could have messed something up.  On my first try I got the results I was expecting, so I didn't test it anymore.  I'll try it again later today a little more thoroughly and double check everything to make sure I'm connecting the LED's to the proper places.

Well, sure, we could just ask the designer, but it is so much more fun to experiment and speculate....


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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2003, 08:28:12 pm »
Yes, Randy, you are correct.  It doesn't matter if the LED's are connected to the 10-pin header or the button inputs, they make the LED's flash either way.

This is how I got it screwed up....  I've previously only had LED's connected to the 10-pin header, which are labeled as Num/Caps/Scroll lock so I didn't have to worry about what button inputs flash which LED's.  Since I have only 6 buttons per player, I've never noticed any flashing before, either.  Based on posts in this thread, I connected buttons and LED's as follows:

P1 B7 - Num Lock
P1 B8 - Caps Lock
P2 B7 - Scroll Lock

As it turns out, this is incorrect.  By following the traces on the board, I see now that the correct button inputs are:

P1 B8 - Num Lock
P1 B7 - Caps Lock
P2 B7 - Scroll Lock


So that's why I couldn't get the buttons to flash the LED's, I had them hooked up incorrectly!  Sorry for the confusion to anyone following this thread, I guess Randy knows what he is talking about after all.   ;D ;D



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Re:Advantages of keyboard encoder vs hacking gamepads
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2003, 07:44:54 am »
Yes, Randy, you are correct.  It doesn't matter if the LED's are connected to the 10-pin header or the button inputs, they make the LED's flash either way.

This is how I got it screwed up....  I've previously only had LED's connected to the 10-pin header, which are labeled as Num/Caps/Scroll lock so I didn't have to worry about what button inputs flash which LED's.  Since I have only 6 buttons per player, I've never noticed any flashing before, either.  Based on posts in this thread, I connected buttons and LED's as follows:

P1 B7 - Num Lock
P1 B8 - Caps Lock
P2 B7 - Scroll Lock

As it turns out, this is incorrect.  By following the traces on the board, I see now that the correct button inputs are:

P1 B8 - Num Lock
P1 B7 - Caps Lock
P2 B7 - Scroll Lock


So that's why I couldn't get the buttons to flash the LED's, I had them hooked up incorrectly!  Sorry for the confusion to anyone following this thread, I guess Randy knows what he is talking about after all.   ;D ;D
Doggone it OSCAR, I had my panels all planned out and had to reaarrange them based on that other thread that you mentioned.  Now, I have to swap the P1 and P2 LED's,  at least it's just the LED's and not the other inputs that are affected now.

Thanks for the info!!!

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