Rebuilding Nintendo Joys, Oil or Grease?

[Witchboard]

I'm finishing up my DK cocktail restoration and I've broken down the joysticks for cleaning.  There's a ball with an eye in it where the shaft of the stick goes through to the microswitches.  It would barely move but now I've cleaned out all the gunk and it spins freely.  My question is, should I oil it, or grease it?  It looks like it may have been greased before, but I have no clue if this was factory or somebodies attempt at lubrication.  Unfortunately the DK documents lack the info on the joysticks.  I guess Atari docs have spoiled me.

[Stingray]

If this is a metal part that fits into a metal housing, I'd probably use some bearing grease on it (just because I have some handy, another type of grease would probably be fine). If it's a plastic part I'd probably go with a lighter oil like 3 in 1 which I've used on & around around plastics with good results. Some greases and oils can break down some plastics so do be careful if you're unfamiliar with the product you use.

-S

[Witchboard]

It's a metal ball in a metal housing.  I'm sure I can bearing grease easy enough.  My father probably has some for use with his tractor.  Thanks Stringray.

[Stingray]

For metal parts I'd go with bearing grease all the way. In a home use situation, you'll probably never have to grease that part again. It's been ages since I bought any, it seems to last forever, but you can buy a small tub of it at any auto suply place for a few bucks.

-S

[RayB]

Best to grease. Less friction means less wear on your ever-more-rare parts.

[Ken Layton]

Go to either the auto parts store or a hardware store and buy a squeeze tube of "Super Lube" synthetic grease (item # 21030 and with barcode # 082353210305. Specs are available at www.super-lube.com

[MaximRecoil]

That's funny because I was going to post the exact same question. I just took apart a Nintendo Punch-Out joystick. Oddly enough, they are mechanically identical to a full-length recoil spring guide rod system in a typical automatic pistol, which explains why they pull straight up and spring back down; like the slide of a pistol does. I figured its ability to do that was a byproduct of design but I'd never taken one apart before to be sure. It is definitely a byproduct of design that came in handy when they wanted to add a function to it for the Super Punch-Out joysticks.

Anyway, I used some bearing grease (some green Park PolyLube 1000 I had lying around that I use for bicycle bearings, i.e. headsets, bottom brackets, hubs, etc.) on the main ball bearing that the stick pivots on as well as on the joystick shaft that makes contact with the spring plugs.

I've been thinking though, that plain old WD-40 would probably be plenty, even for the main bearing; and probably be slicker as well (bearing grease isn't known for its slickness; it just holds up well under force, heat and water).

Joysticks get banged around pretty good but the forces (and heat by default) on the bearing itself would be pretty minimal. Bearing grease is for applications where a lot of weight/force is being applied to fairly large bearings (the ball joints in your car for example) and I think it is overkill for a joystick. WD-40 was good enough to keep light machine guns running in the jungles of Vietnam; plus it would be much easier to reapply if needed; just get underneath and give it a few sprays.

[MaximRecoil]

Repeat after me.

[JCL]

We've done this before. WD-40 is a tiny bit of oil in a solvent. It is a terrible lubricant. It is misused all the time.

Do you believe all the advertisements you see?

Anyone who recommends it as a good lubricant doesn't know its ingredients. It can be useful, but it is a very poor substitute for an appropriate oil or grease.

[MaximRecoil]

We've done this before. WD-40 is a tiny bit of oil in a solvent. It is a terrible lubricant. It is misused all the time.

Yeah, like "CLP" (commercially known as "Break-Free"); which the military uses for firearms (they have also used WD-40). You know what "CLP" is an abbreviation for right? It can't clean without solvent capabilites. When the solvent dries the oil stays behind. Perhaps you should enlighten the military; you know; because they are obviously greenhorns when it comes to such matters, lol.

Do you believe all the advertisements you see?

What do advertisements have to do with anything? I'm not sure WD-40 does a lot of advertising anyway. I have used the stuff extensively; I know what it is capable of.

Anyone who recommends it as a good lubricant doesn't know its ingredients.

The problem here is, you don't understand how the ingredients work; and obviously do not have much experience with actual use of the stuff on machinery. WD-40 doesn't completely dry off; it leaves an oily residue which still lubricates without being excessive (the more oil you have, the more abrasive it can become when it gets dirty).

Now, these Nintendo joysticks do not need bearing grease. Bearing grease won't hurt anything and will certainly keep it lubricated for a long time but will not be as slick as a light lubricant like WD-40.

[MaximRecoil]

Ask a car shop how screwed up joints can become if a home repairer constantly squeezes in WD-40 instead of getting them properly lubed.

You don't seem to be distinguishing between the various applications. There are things that need heavy grease and there are things that don't. Anything ruined by WD-40 is a result of using it on something that needs a heavy grease. WD-40 will get in there, clean out any existing grease and leave inadequate lubrication behind. I wouldn't shoot WD-40 into a bottom bracket on a bicycle either; it would be torn up in short order.

Now, I just took one of these Nintendo joysticks apart and I have long known full well their application. They do not need to bear any significant load and they do not move at any significant speed. They do not need heavy grease. Like I mentioned earlier, they are mechanically identical to a full length recoil spring guide rod system in a pistol, with the addition of that insignificant-load bearing main bearing. We know that WD-40 does not ruin guns; or else they would be in for some major lawsuits since they recommend its use for guns right on the side of the can; and the training facilities, and gunsmiths who use it exclusively would think twice if all of their guns were being ruined.

Why go for the overkill? To use an extreme example to illustrate the difference in "slickness"; would you pack an old wind-up wrist watch full of bearing grease?

[Ken Layton]

I agree 100% with MonitorGuru. In my other jobs I'm also a professional motion picture theater projector repair tech. WD-40 destroys bearings in movie projectors within hours! Many major theater chains (and lots of independent theaters) forbid WD-40 from the projection booth. It is only to be used in the auditoriums on squeaky doors and squeaky seats. It is NEVER to be used on food service equipment either. Anyone caught using WD-40 on a motion picture projector (or anything in the projection booth) is FIRED immediately!

[MaximRecoil]

In my other jobs I'm also a professional motion picture theater projector repair tech. WD-40 destroys bearings in movie projectors within hours!

Apples and oranges. I'll just go ahead and say that an automatic pistol is mechanically a lot closer to the Nintendo joystick in question than to a movie projector. In fact, it is mechanically identical to a main system of a pistol, which I have stated two or three times now.

For one thing, you could run these Nintendo sticks dry and not kill them. They are seriously overbuilt. A double layer of 1/16" steel sandwiched together forms the race/socket for a large single steel ball bearing of about 3/8" diameter (estimate). On top of that, There is no load to speak of; and the speed is insignificant, as well as the duration of constant motion. That is the key here; and the common sense foundation behind determing a proper lubrication for a given application. If a 1911A1 can last for tens of thousands of rounds with WD-40; these Nintendo sticks will be fine, considering they are subject to far less stresses than those involved with the recoil-forced cycling of a slide.

A projector wheel is in near constant rotary motion under the load of the film reel for what? 10 or 12 hours a day at least? Set 25 pounds on top of a Nintendo joystick and set it into a constant circular motion for 12 hours straight every day and then you might have a case for needing bearing grease.

[tristan]

If you must use a spray like WD-40, I would suggest something with Teflon, like Tri-Flo. It always worked on my skateboard bearings very well, where as WD-40 would just kill them.

[Witchboard]

I didn't mean for this to turn into a WD-40 vs. Grease/Oil debate.  I'll be using grease in my application since that's what was originally used by the manufacturer.  Thanks all for the input.

[Stingray]

WD-40 works great at breaking loose rusty parts, and cleaning out gunk, but I never use it as a lubricant either, for whatever that's worth.

-S

[MaximRecoil]

If you must use a spray like WD-40, I would suggest something with Teflon, like Tri-Flo. It always worked on my skateboard bearings very well, where as WD-40 would just kill them.

Skateboard bearings should be greased. They are subject to significant load and significant speed for significant durations at a time; much like hubs on a bicycle wheel (which are always greased, except for newer ones that use sealed cartridge bearings, in which case, you never touch them). WD-40 doesn't "kill" anything. Lack of proper lubrication "kills" stuff. Pack a windup watch full of bearing grease; it won't run too well; if at all. Use "Tri-Flo" on your car's ball joints, see how long they last. It is all about application.

[JCL]

If you must use a spray like WD-40, I would suggest something with Teflon, like Tri-Flo. It always worked on my skateboard bearings very well, where as WD-40 would just kill them.

Skateboard bearings should be greased. They are subject to significant load and significant speed for significant durations at a time; much like hubs on a bicycle wheel (which are always greased, except for newer ones that use sealed cartridge bearings, in which case, you never touch them). WD-40 doesn't "kill" anything. Lack of proper lubrication "kills" stuff. Pack a windup watch full of bearing grease; it won't run too well; if at all. Use "Tri-Flo" on your car's ball joints, see how long they last. It is all about application.

For what *lubrication* application is a mixture of a lot of solvent and a little oil, fragrence and other crap *better* than a pure oil/grease of the proper type?

There is no application where WD-40 is a better lubricant than a real lubricant. WD-40 is easy, it does two jobs sort of at once (cleans out old crap, barely lubricates), but where is it really the *proper* lubricant?

[MaximRecoil]

There is no application where WD-40 is a better lubricant than a real lubricant.

In this case it is a matter of feel/handling. That is the only reason you would need to lubricate a Nintendo joystick. If you used it dry it would not overheat, seize up, shear metal or do anything else destructive that is related to excessive friction/lack of lubrication (due to reasons I have repeated over and over above). Now, with that in mind, simply go with whatever makes it feel slick. Everyone has a can of WD-40 around; it is convenient to use, easy to reapply, cheap and above all, it will make the joystick handle smoothly giving it a better feel.

[Stingray]

That is the only reason you would need to lubricate a Nintendo joystick. If you used it dry it would not overheat, seize up, shear metal or do anything else destructive that is related to excessive friction/lack of lubrication

I disagree. Certainly it will experience nothing like the same level of wear that say an unlubricated wheel bearing would, but any unlubricated moving part will wear more than a lubricated moving part.

Yes I know that I just set myself up for a few cheap jokes at my expense. I can live with that.

-S

[MaximRecoil]

I disagree. Certainly it will experience nothing like the same level of wear that say an unlubricated wheel bearing would, but any unlubricated moving part will wear more than a lubricated moving part.

With all other things equal, that is certainly true. With the way this particular stick is [over]built, you might get 51 years with bearing grease for lubrication and 50 years dry; and 50 years, 11 months with WD-40.

Anyway, the type of lubrication you go with on this joystick is irrelevant in regard to maintaining its functionality. Other problems would occur long before any friction related issues developed. The bulk of wear and tear on a joystick of this type would be impact related; i.e. the base of the shaft constantly slamming into the guide plate; especially with hyperactive players. And, of course, the microswitches and the spring (compressed springs weaken over time, even when not in use; though with high quality springs; we are talking a long time).

What is relevant regarding the type of lubrication, is how well it makes the movement of the stick feel. A light-grade of lubrication will feel slicker and smoother than a heavy grease, whether that light lubrication be WD-40, sewing machine oil, 3-in-1 or whatever you have kicking around.

[missioncontrol]

I agree bearing grease.........

that's what I used

[MaximRecoil]

I have two Nintendo joysticks from different machines here and from looking at them, I would say that they came from the factory with a light-grade white grease in the bearing socket. They both had identical hardened white grease residue around the bottom of the socket, though the existing [relatively] fresh grease in the sockets was just ordinary brown bearing grease.

[Kremmit]

I cannot believe that after all this time, nobody has suggested

Bacon Grease!

This is my very first Bacon post.

[Stingray]

...I think starting with WD-40 to clean, then add grease is what I usually do.

IMO, that's exactly the correct thing to do if the part's movenent is restricted. WD-40 or similar solvent/lubricant to clean out the crap, followed by fresh bearing grease, silicone grease or whatever to lubricate it. WD-40 is the correct first step, it just needs to be folled up with a higher grade of lubricant after it's done it's job.

-S

[daywane]

...I think starting with WD-40 to clean, then add grease is what I usually do.

IMO, that's exactly the correct thing to do if the part's movenent is restricted. WD-40 or similar solvent/lubricant to clean out the crap, followed by fresh bearing grease, silicone grease or whatever to lubricate it. WD-40 is the correct first step, it just needs to be folled up with a higher grade of lubricant after it's done it's job.

-S

I agree. wd 40 is a cleaning agent in my book. It will in time , remove any grease or glue.
I even use it to remove tar from my car. ( drive over a new tared road, spray with wd 40 and let it soak)
as a lube, no.  Clean off old grease,