Katrina Thread / New Orleans

[Stingray]

Building a city below sea level was a dumb idea to start with, so I'm sure the government will be happy to build it again in the same bad location.

-S

[ChadTower]

It's not like they designed the city that way.  It was a seaport and just grew over the years.  No one would have gone into an empty spot and built that city as a whole.

I wonder how long it will be before someone influential in the media brings up that point.  It may not be worth rebuilding a lot of that, considering it's just going to happen again.

[shmokes]

I love gasoline tax.  The government has to provide roads and freeways and so on.  Gasoline tax puts a heavier burden of road maintanance and building on people who actually use the roads.  And the more frequently you use the roads, the higher the share of taxes you pay.  It also has the indirect benefit of encouraging public transportation.  Just compare public transit systems in Europe to what we have here and consider that brits have always paid more than double for gas (probably more like four times) than what we pay in the U.S. due to heavy taxation.  There are probably other factors that influence the growth of public transit in Europe as well, such as people being less geographically dispersed or bad traffic, but I think it stands to reason (and there is probably pretty solid research that would bare this out) that high costs of using a car would encourage people to use public transit. 

As far as what I said about the taxes it only applies completely if gasoline taxes are only used by the departments of transportation (and perhaps the EPA), which is probably not the case, but I think most states and the federal government do use a great deal of it for roads and other driving related purposes.

[ChadTower]

I would feel better about such a tax if, as you said, it was ONLY used for roads.  Sadly, the roads in MA are typically in garbage shape and there are bridges here that haven't been touched in more than 50 years.  Many of the small bridges here, if you were to look under them, are actually crumbling.  Even a minor road construction project takes a year and a half, typically going 2-3x over projected cost.

With the amount they must take in from gasoline taxes in this state, we could probably have ceramic roads.

[shmokes]

That's sounds dangerous, but fun.

[Stingray]

Especially if they're glazed.

-S

[shmokes]

I think fredster's post was clear.

Each individual line makes sense.  He's using proper grammer and syntax and so on.  It just makes no sense as a response to Mr. C, which is what it was.

[ChadTower]

Oh, in that case, it may as well be in Polish.  Most of the time I skip over Mr C's posts, so if they're not quoted as part of the response, I don't get context.

[quarterback]

I see we will be dipping into the federal oil reserves.

[shmokes]

I'm seem to remember Clinton tapping into them at one point, and just after 9/11 it seems like they were tapped.

[ChadTower]

Clinton tapped everything he could get his tapper on.

[Stingray]

Clinton tapped everything he could get his tapper on.

It's good to be the president.

-S

[shmokes]

Yeah...thought it doesn't seem as though he was nearly as discerning as he could have been.  JFK seems to have had far higher standards.

[Stingray]

Well, Clinton only screwed Monica. Bush screwed everybody.

-S

[ChadTower]

JFK was much better looking than Clinton.  He was also a better man, and back then, the media protected the President, it didn't try to destroy him.

[ChadTower]

I wonder how long it will be before someone influential in the media brings up that point.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

For still struggling to figure out why a good many people chose to stay behind in NOLA, even with the warnings.

The dirty secret: Poverty

The mainstream media is not prepared to deal with this sort of concept, so they'll focus on vilifying the "looters" and sensationalizing the mass chaos, as borderline racists on the right feign sympathy, while practicing indifference.

I can only hope that America comes together to support the people of that region, irregardless. Kudos to Texas for allowing the use of their Astrodome to house the refugees currently stuffed inside the Superdome.

Only problem now is, who do they move 30,000 people (including a large number of infirm, and elderly) roughly 600 miles?


mrC

[DrewKaree]

...as borderline racists on the right feign sympathy, while practicing indifference.

It's as if your ignorance knows no bounds.  Be sure and tell us all what study you got this from and how you are certain that giving anyone on "the left" a pass is proper.

Somehow you've managed to figure out that the only racists in America are on the right, and that you hold a monopoly on "true" sympathy.

Get over your pious self and go back to telling us all how much you do for your country, but "you don't want to go into details and boast"

You've been consistent on trying to turn back to politics, I'll give you that.  Your piss-poor political attitude towards this is quite simply repugnant.   

[ChadTower]

The area where most of the real devastation is is geographically small.  It was possible, with the given warnings, to walk out of the worst of the potential damage zone to a place more likely to be safe.  It is not many miles from New Orleans to the next town north.

Poverty does not make one unable to walk when their life depends on it.

[shmokes]

I heard on NPR that they were planning to bus them to Houston.  It caused a question mark to appear above my head, Metal Gear Solid-style.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, to the Astrodome.  One ancient, crappy dome to another.

I guess the roads are not flooded?

[Stingray]

From I read today it sounds like some of the roads are still passable, but at least one interstate is flooded out, and many of the bridges are out. I would expect that road travel is probably at walking speed until you get clear of the city.

-S

[quarterback]

"We probably have 80 percent of our city under water; with some sections of our city the water is as deep as 20 feet. Both airports are underwater,''

Much of Interstate 10 is closed on either side of New Orleans. Some sections of Lake Ponchartrain's I-10 twin span

[DrewKaree]

What's different about the Astrodome is...well, primarily....the toilets work and there isn't all that water inside

Dunno if my questions are similar to shmokes', but how are they being bussed out if it's flooded, and why are those busses running now, instead of earlier?  Is this the example MrC is going to point to about "the right feigning sympathy"?

Oh, and regarding the link MrC gave us, and Chad's viewpoint - has anyone taken a LOOK at that ridiculous link?  Something jumped out at me.  Kinda goes along with what Chad is saying, but evidently MrC isn't wanting to actually look at the story too carefully.

After being rescued from her roof, Moses said she was among those unable to evacuate before the hurricane. "My mother-in-law went out of town, but I didn't have any money, so I couldn't,"

So let me get this straight.  Someone from her family was evacuating, i.e. acting to save their life, and this chick says money was the reason she couldn't hitch a friggen ride with the mother of her husband?  That's asking to suspend logic for far too shaky a reason.  Are we to believe they were able to talk to one of the few people with such a PISS-POOR relationship with a relative that they wouldn't take them away from a situation with the very real possibility/probability they'd die?  That borders on attempted murder, and it's simply not a plausible story.

They stayed because they wanted to, and "I didn't have any money" is yet another stupid excuse.  Please fill us in on how her day at work is going today, since she and everyone else who stayed obviously have to get back to work because they're living day to day.

Fall for something else, but spare us the poverty drivel.

[shmokes]

I say, maybe some of the poor daisies didn't buy all the doom and gloom stuff and figured they'd sit in their homes, deal with the few inches of water that came in under the floor and not be hastled with the inconvenience and serious expense of going and finding a place to stay.  How far would they have to go for a vacancy in a motel?  When they found one, what kind of exhorbitant prices would they be charging.

So it was a dumbass mistake.  So was ignoring the warning signals for Pearl Harbor and 9/11.  Sympathy and/or charity doesn't have to hinge on whether a person could have avoided their current situation.  It's easy to be smart in hindsight.

edit:  That's funny.  Saint's getting out of hand here.  I did not say daisies up there, LMAO.

[ChadTower]

So, when your life is threatened, you should only flee if you can find a motel vacancy.  That makes sense.  A good parent risks their children's lives in the face of a natural disaster rather than sleeping in a park...

[shmokes]

I say Chad should reread the first line of my last post.

[ChadTower]

I've already warned you about ramming your post down peoples' throats. 

With all the autocensor tweaking around here, who knows what anyone is trying to say at a given time.

Pillsbury.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

...as borderline racists on the right feign sympathy, while practicing indifference.

It's as if your ignorance knows no bounds.  Be sure and tell us all what study you got this from and how you are certain that giving anyone on "the left" a pass is proper.

My ignorance?? You're the fool who takes all his marching orders from Glenn Beck.

Anyhow, it doesn't take a study to figure out, just watch FOX news. Try watching Hannity, who can't stop beating the drum about how these "blacks" just can't stop looting. Watch Fred Barnes exclaim his amazement that "these people" don't have as much private flood insurance as he has on his summer beach house. Watch these spokespeople start talking up "personal responsibility" instead dealing with the complete lack of Federal "pre-disaster planning" and funding for the levees. Watch the echo-chamber on the right completely amplify this message and ignore the reality of working poor in America. Watch those with the most racists tendancies banter about how these folks "brought it upon themselves" by being "too stupid to leave". It's already happening...

These morons have been given the soapbox by people on the right, they speak for the right...that's not *my* problem, that's yours.

I've never claimed that the "left" is devoid of racism, but I don't think it's a stretch to claim that the right holds a monopoly on it. Don't shoot the messenger.


mrC

[Stingray]

I wish you daisies would just shut the artichoke up.

-S

[DrewKaree]

Pillsbury.

I can't believe you just said that!  Thankfully, saint was on the lookout for words like that!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

They stayed because they wanted to, and "I didn't have any money" is yet another stupid excuse.  Please fill us in on how her day at work is going today, since she and everyone else who stayed obviously have to get back to work because they're living day to day.

Fall for something else, but spare us the poverty drivel.

"Poverty drivel??"

What an @sshole you are. Seriously.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Dunno if my questions are similar to shmokes', but how are they being bussed out if it's flooded, and why are those busses running now, instead of earlier?

They AREN'T being bussed out yet, Genius. They are hoping too. But as it stands, that can't do anything until the water situation is under control. As for why the busses hadn't been available earlier, there simply wasn't enough buses to move such an enormous amount of people in such a short time. The highways were gridlocked anyhow.

There was no mass transit system in NOLA, and there are a LOT of people who were too poor to afford vehicles, or bikes for their entire family, as Chad suggested.

mrC

[M3talhead]

THIS JUST IN:

MANY NOLA AREA HOSPITALS ARE ALMOST OUT OF FUEL WHICH KEEPS ELECTRIC GENERATORS RUNNING.

This means that those on ventilators and emergency life support systems are in danger of losing their fight for life. Appx 1600 critical paitents are going to need evacuation to other hospitals in the inter-state area.



I lived in New Orleans for over 11 years, and Biloxi for 3. I never saw a natural disaster get this bad.....

[Stingray]

I hope the gov't gets on the ball quickly and gets some fuel to those hospital generators. That should become the #1 priority.

-S

[shmokes]

I still don't understand the bus situation.  I am under the distinct impression that the reason they are evacuating the shelters is because the levees are leaking water, causing the water levels to rise, putting the people in the shelters at risk.  If the water are got under control to the point of allowing buses to drive right up to the Superdome, doesn't that negate the need to evacuate in the first place?

[M3talhead]

I hope the gov't gets on the ball quickly and gets some fuel to those hospital generators. That should become the #1 priority.

-S

Bush left Andrews AFB about an hour ago aboard MC1 to survey the area. He has also released a national energy conservation notice, asking citizens all over the country to use fuel/energy sparingly to ease the economy on the coast.

[Stingray]

As high as fuel prices are right now I don't need Bush to tell me to use it sparingly.

-S

[M3talhead]

I still don't understand the bus situation.  I am under the distinct impression that the reason they are evacuating the shelters is because the levees are leaking water, causing the water levels to rise, putting the people in the shelters at risk.  If the water are got under control to the point of allowing buses to drive right up to the Superdome, doesn't that negate the need to evacuate in the first place?

They're now talking about bringing in federal airlift support, as the Natl. Guard units in the area are tapped out. Alabama sent 2 guard battalions yesterday.

[M3talhead]

Now they're saying they need to evac 10,000 out of 9 hospitals due to no power of any kind! Generators and backup generators are now completely out of fuel...

(I'm watching a live press confrence feed out of Baton Rouge)