Bush administration says: Iraq is a bust.

[Crazy Cooter]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8942482/

Was it all a waste of time?

"The United States no longer expects to see a model new democracy, a self-supporting oil industry or a society where the majority of people are free from serious security or economic challenges, U.S. officials say."

[toolaa]

I guess they finally realized what 95% of the rest of us have known for 3 years.  It would just suck to have that country fall back into chaos far worse than before and create 10 times more problems over the next 30 years.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

The thing that saddens me the most - out of all the horrible things that have come out of the decision to invade Iraq - is that all those people who planned it, all of those people that support it, and all of those people that are too afraid to fight it, but insist that we keep throwing bodies on the pile, all these people will walk away from this debacle saying, "Well, it's all the Iraqis fault!" (just watch!) and they'll go back to their lives never comprehending (or even attempting to) the total devastation that has been wrought on hundreds of thousands of American families, and millions of Iraqi families. They'll never understand just how much this has increased the threat of an attack on innocent civilians here in the U.S. and abroad, and they go on complaining about their tax money being spent on social programs here in the U.S., but never bat an eye at the over $350 BILLION dollars sunk into Bush's Neocon Fantasy (or the over $8 BILLION that simply "went missing", and which is still unaccounted from today).

Yeah, Saddam was a bad man...but now, he's been replaced by something much, much worse....chaos and anger, not to mention the perception of American weakness. Bush's ill-planned, irrelevant detour in the "WMD Hunt" , er..."Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism", uh..."War on Terror", has emboldened terrorists around the world, more than Osama's wildest dreams.

I gave up on expecting accountability from them a long time ago and now, it seems, they'll have learned nothing from this, dooming this country to repeating similiar failures in the future. I just wish their incompetence, arrogance, and utter failure of imagination hadn't increased the threat on my country and my family, instead of just theirs.



mrC

[JCL]

The thing that saddens me the most - out of all the horrible things that have come out of the decision to invade Iraq - is that all those people who planned it, all of those people that support it, and all of those people that are too afraid to fight it, but insist that we keep throwing bodies on the pile, all these people will walk away from this debacle saying, "Well, it's all the Iraqis fault!" (just watch!) and they'll go back to their lives never comprehending (or even attempting to) the total devastation that has been wrought on hundreds of thousands of American families, and millions of Iraqi families. They'll never understand just how much this has increased the threat of an attack on innocent civilians here in the U.S. and abroad, and they go on complaining about their tax money being spent on social programs here in the U.S., but never bat an eye at the over $350 BILLION dollars sunk into Bush's Neocon Fantasy (or the over $8 BILLION that simply "went missing", and which is still unaccounted from today).

Yeah, Saddam was a bad man...but now, he's been replaced by something much, much worse....chaos and anger, not to mention the perception of American weakness. Bush's ill-planned, irrelevant detour in the "WMD Hunt" , er..."Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism", uh..."War on Terror", has emboldened terrorists around the world, more than Osama's wildest dreams.

I gave up on expecting accountability from them a long time ago and now, it seems, they'll have learned nothing from this, dooming this country to repeating similiar failures in the future. I just wish their incompetence, arrogance, and utter failure of imagination hadn't increased the threat on my country and my family, instead of just theirs.



mrC

Nope, never happen. They're not going to blame the Iraqi's. Nope.

They're going to blame "liberuls and the MSM". Just you wait. I'm willing to bet a lot that that is who the LGF and Freepers are going to scapegoat over this cluster--manuallycensored--.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well, just in case you were wondering how Bush felt about all the death and destruction being wrought in America's name, and which was instigated on *his* whimsy:

(In response to his uncanny ability to avoid the mother's of dead soldiers, while attending fund raisers and little-league games)

"President Bush, noting that lots of people want to talk to the president and

[Crazy Cooter]

So he said his nap is more important than talking with this woman?

That is low.

[Crazy Cooter]

Just like I said many moons ago (unfortunately):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9013227/
"...some Pentagon officials now acknowledge that the two-and-a-half-year insurgent war has turned Iraq into a terrorist training camp.

U.S. intelligence indicates Islamic militants from several African nations

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Doesn't matter....Bush is best friends w/ Jesus!

That has to count for something.....right?

[Dexter]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1553862,00.html

So lets do a raincheck...

Operation iraqi freedom:

100,000+ dead iraqis
1850+ dead troops
$189,000,000,000+ spent

result-
Iraq transformed from contained secular state with no WMDS to a fundamentalist state based on islamic law which will now be Irans bedfellow.

Changed iraq from a country with some of the most progressive womens rights in the region to one with none.

Removed the tolerance that existed under iraqi law for jews and christians.

All thrown away so that bush can drone on about a draft constitution being ready on schedule (which its not). Lets not mention the fact the 'freedom being on the march' through iraq has resulted in LESS freedom for its people.

Well done monkeyboy, if Osama isn't dead already he'll probably die of laughter just thinking about this.

[paigeoliver]

Why can't we just topple the government again NOW, while we still have troops over there? Really, if it was OK, the first time, why can't it be OK the second time?

Also, whats the point, let any group of people over in that part of the world form their own government, and they will make an Islamic Fundamentalist Theocracy every time.

[Dexter]

Also, whats the point, let any group of people over in that part of the world form their own government, and they will make an Islamic Fundamentalist Theocracy every time.

Amen. You can't 'impose' democracy on a people, by definition it must be BY the people. Telling them what they want can't be the first step towards their actual freedom.

[ChadTower]

If you make guns part of Islamic Fundamentalist Law, only Islamic Fundamentalists will have guns.

BTW, the reason you can't force freedom on people is because they didn't sacrifice for it.  Like a kid just given a great toy, if he didn't have to work for it, he's not going to take care of it and won't care much if he loses it.

[Dexter]

BTW, the reason you can't force freedom on people is because they didn't sacrifice for it.

[ChadTower]

Change the noun, the concept still applies.

[fredster]

Here's a good one -
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-peace-mom-counter-protest,0,5644588.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

I like the last line, and I guess it says it all

"We don't want to debate with people who don't understand our point of view."

[ChadTower]

So, how do you debate with someone that fully agrees with you? 

Someone needs a dictionary.

This woman has had a crushing loss.  No parent should outlive their child.  Her family needs to come get her, not disown her via press statements.

[Dexter]

Change the noun, the concept still applies.

Depends what country you live in. Did you move?? 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Today: Shiite official: Iraq to draft constitution on time

My prediction: Civil War.

I wonder if you asked the American people in 2002, whether or not they'd be interested in spending $400+ BILLION dollars of their money and spilling the blood of thousands of their men and women in uniform, all in order to install a Muslim, Pro-Iranian Theocracy where there was once was none ...would they say, "Yes!"

Too bad the solution is to have never invaded Iraq. As it stands now, there is no favorable solution for America, just a series of "lesser evil" choices. Either way, the damage is done.


mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

where they get hands-on training in roadside and suicide bombings

For those students who are hoping to develop a skill they can use after the war, I would recommend not taking this training course.

[fredster]

For those students who are hoping to develop a skill they can use after the war, I would recommend not taking this training course.

You can get the Army field manual for it for $5 at any gun show.  I know I did!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

where they get hands-on training in roadside and suicide bombings

For those students who are hoping to develop a skill they can use after the war, I would recommend not taking this training course.

Yeah, it's much safer being a "mastermind" like Osama and/or Al Zarqawi. Both are still running around enjoying their freedom. Osama's hiking in the peaceful mountains of Pakistan, safe from U.S. forces, and Al Zarqawi is pimping out his bachelor pad in Baghdad, while planning his next attack.

[Dartful Dodger]

Yeah, it's much safer being a "mastermind" like Osama and/or Al Zarqawi. Both are still running around enjoying their freedom. Osama's hiking in the peaceful mountains of Pakistan, safe from U.S. forces, and Al Zarqawi is pimping out his bachelor pad in Baghdad, while planning his next attack.

Exactly, if they all took the "hide in the hills for the rest of your life" class, we wouldn't have a problem in Iraq.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

For anyone wondering what the current "draft" of the Iraqi constitution looks like, here's some chilling insight:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/22/AR2005082200101_pf.html

"The draft, slated for action by a Monday deadline, would be a sweeping rejection of the demands of Iraq's disaffected Sunni minority, which has called the proposed federal system the start of the breakup of Iraq. Shiites and Kurds indicated they were in no mood to compromise.

...

Key provisions of the draft would formalize an already autonomous Kurdish state in the north, under a federal system. The rest of the country also would be allowed to form federal systems -- opening the way for the demand by the dominant Shiite Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq to create a southern Shiite sub-state out of up to half of Iraq's 18 regions.

Sunnis and others say such a state would be under heavy influence from neighboring, Shiite-ruled Iran.

"The draft also stipulates that Iraq is an Islamic state and that no law can contradict the principles of Islam, Shiite and Kurdish negotiators said. Opponents have charged that last provision would subject Iraqis to religious edicts by individual clerics.

The Shiite and Kurdish negotiators also said draft calls for the presence of Islamic clerics on the court that would interpret the constitution. Family matters such as divorce, marriage or inheritance would be decided either by religious law or civil law as an individual chooses -- a condition that opponents say would likely lead to women being forced into unfavorable rulings for them by opponents demanding judgments under Islamic law."

(Emphasis mine)

mrC

[hanelyp]

Broken link.  Also, I generally discount claims from unnamed sources.  No one ever claimed it would be easy.

[hanelyp]

BTW, the reason you can't force freedom on people is because they didn't sacrifice for it.

Iraques are sacrificing for their freedom.  Witness the masses signing up to help us fight the murderers wrecking havok against anything that moves.

[Dartful Dodger]

Hopefully they put an air tight right to own and carry a gun in their constitution.

[ChadTower]

They don't fight with guns.  What they need is the right to carry a vest full of c4.

[Dartful Dodger]

They don't fight with guns.

[ChadTower]

Actually, the problem with my thinking is that I don't care if they carry machine guns, pistols, or bazookas until they aim them at US citizens.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Iraques are sacrificing for their freedom.  Witness the masses signing up to help us fight the murderers wrecking havok against anything that moves.

Uh, out of a country of MILLIONS, we've barely been able to cobble together a standing force of 50,000, which pretty much refuses to fight alongside Americans.

I'd say Iraq seems LESS stable than before, and certainly MORE fundamentalist than before. Which prompts the question, "How is any of this GOOD for America and the War on Terror?"

I wish the Iraqi people the best, but unfortunately, it seems "the best" was to leave well enough alone until they were ready to overthrow Saddam themselves.

All Bush's doctrine has done at this point is help IRAN and Osama, both of whom are/were FAR more dangerous and threatening than Saddam EVER was. It's like this administration enjoys finding more efficient ways of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Btw,

Anyone else find it particularly distrubing that the crazy theocracy being built in Iraq sounds a lot like the religious utopia that the loony Bush-lovin' Christians envision here in the U.S.?

- A cleric interpretting the constitution
- Less freedom/right's for women
- Personal issues solved by relgious law

Maybe these X-tian Bush supporters can just *move* to Iraq once the dust settles, or better yet, they can go there now and help "spread freedom!^(tm)"

mrC

[Crazy Cooter]

Sunnis and others say such a state would be under heavy influence from neighboring, Shiite-ruled Iran.

FYI:
"The Banker" is a pretty crass investment rag that pursues one thing: Money.  There isn't much room for morals.  You'd be interested to know that their article published in December 2004 titled: "A new economic era for Iran" -  said:

"One key aspect of financial sector reform going forward is the privatisation of the banking sector. But while a number of privately owned banks have been licensed (see page 124) and the bulk of the state-owned banks will be sold, a significant state-owned sector will remain. Bank Melli Iran, the largest bank in terms of assets, will stay in state hands and expects to expand its role in the region through new operations in Baghdad, Kabul and Dubai (see page 133)."

http://www.thebanker.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/2383/A_new_economic_era_for_Iran.html

I've always felt that whoever controls the money controls the government.  Iran has been "floating" Iraq for some time now.  It doesn't surprise me in the least that they would be "rewarded" for their efforts.  I'd go as far to say that controlling the banking system is the modern day equivilent of "war spoils".  Just imagine when Iraqis start charging things on their credit cards.  All the interest payments will go to Iran.  In the short future, do you think Iraq would support efforts to "change things" [US Invasion] in Iran?  No.  Their money is over there and it needs to be safe.  IMO, there is a very dangerous thing happening where Kuwait, Iraq and Iran are intermingling financially and will not only have to, but will want to support each other in order to keep their finances stable.  In short, I see a movement towards an organized monopoly of the Middle East oils supply.  Something well beyond OPEC.  And of course they will want to defend that position [Nukes].

I just wish that somebody could quantify what our goals are now.  It seems like we just keep lowering the bar and I'm tired of hearing vague answers.  Give me an Iraqi troop training report updated each month or something... with a goal figure and some milestones where we can bring some of our guys home.

[JCL]

Broken link.